Pact sadness!

[Uska]

I'd go further with that, but he might start whining about how rude we are to him while he casually calls everyone who disagrees with him a munchkin.

Still don't see you factually stating what 4E did right and it needs to be something you can back up thst was widely thought to be true and there is nothing that was

[Postumus]

My personal fav Packs are Dragon, Celestial & Star although it would awesome if there was a Pact related to one of the magical powers of Eberron..or even house cannith to have a weird half-construct warlock w/ some nice Arty synergy. (see Sorceror-King Pact)

Great ideas.

[Ausdoerrt]

Hopefully you can be Enlightened: It's in the Spirit of DDO to give a bit more freedom in character building.

Yeah hopefully http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Enlight...83.5e_Class%29

[MadCookieQueen]

Yeah hopefully http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Enlight...83.5e_Class%29

I wouldn't count on them using a Homebrew class model for this. Genre versus fan content and genre usually wins.

However...

We will probably be getting LG Warlocks.

Enlightened Spirit (took me a bit to pull that phrase out of Vargs cryptic response) which means Celestial or Dragonic Pact and the name of one of the trees.

If I had to guess I'd say that the pacts are based on alignment (like deity feats are base don race) and thus the corresponding trees stem from that.

Which means we will have a Lawful Tree (Celestial or Draconic), A Neutral Tree(not sure but Slaadi would come to mind) and a Chaotic Tree (Fey).


*sigh*

Let the Paladin/Warlock stupidity commence.


(seriously if you don't go CHA based, 18 Warlock/ 2 Paladin...you'll be missing out on some massive OPness and right from the start. I recommend bastard swords (THF line with Shield Mastery Lines)...you may also want to consider a 17/3 split and take some more Sacred Defender for the HP increase or the STR and luckily Vanguard has some tasty low hanging fruit, 2 levels is fine, 3 would be better. So you'll have Warlock Eldritch Blast, probably some other offensive capabilities since they do a pile of self buffing. Depending on if the class has self healing you could consider Bladeforged or Halfling for Dragonmark of Healing; you'll have a high enough strength to make this work based on Divine Might. There you go instant, OP build and please welcome our new Warlock overlords)

[Uska]

I wouldn't count on them using a Homebrew class model for this. Genre versus fan content and genre usually wins.

However...

We will probably be getting LG Warlocks.

Enlightened Spirit (took me a bit to pull that phrase out of Vargs cryptic response) which means Celestial or Dragonic Pact and the name of one of the trees.

If I had to guess I'd say that the pacts are based on alignment (like deity feats are base don race) and thus the corresponding trees stem from that.

Which means we will have a Lawful Tree (Celestial or Draconic), A Neutral Tree(not sure but Slaadi would come to mind) and a Chaotic Tree (Fey).


*sigh*

Let the Paladin/Warlock stupidity commence.


(seriously if you don't go CHA based, 18 Warlock/ 2 Paladin...you'll be missing out on some massive OPness and right from the start. I recommend bastard swords (THF line with Shield Mastery Lines)...you may also want to consider a 17/3 split and take some more Sacred Defender for the HP increase or the STR and luckily Vanguard has some tasty low hanging fruit, 2 levels is fine, 3 would be better. So you'll have Warlock Eldritch Blast, probably some other offensive capabilities since they do a pile of self buffing. Depending on if the class has self healing you could consider Bladeforged or Halfling for Dragonmark of Healing; you'll have a high enough strength to make this work based on Divine Might. There you go instant, OP build and please welcome our new Warlock overlords)

don't think we will see LG but they will go close to what you say to allow CG and NG

[MadCookieQueen]

don't think we will see LG but they will go close to what you say to allow CG and NG

I could only hope...however in the Complete Mage the example build for an Enlightened Spirit has a Lawful Good alignment.

Honestly with the way class passes have been lately, I do fully expect something OP that will need about 18 levels to really rock the power.

If they do follow the 3.5 Warlock...they can be really nasty self buffing fighters, just add a little melee into the mix (Warlock/Fighter even in 5th edition is a nasty nasty build and in 3.5, a Warlock really dangerous) so might as well get DM and Divine Grace out of the deal.

Honestly...at this point, I'd just like a dev to settle this and tell us what exactly is happening here.

Speculation is getting a bit stale and I don't like where my mind is taking things.

[Uska]

I could only hope...however in the Complete Mage the example build for an Enlightened Spirit has a Lawful Good alignment.

Honestly with the way class passes have been lately, I do fully expect something OP that will need about 18 levels to really rock the power.

If they do follow the 3.5 Warlock...they can be really nasty self buffing fighters, just add a little melee into the mix (Warlock/Fighter even in 5th edition is a nasty nasty build and in 3.5, a Warlock really dangerous) so might as well get DM and Divine Grace out of the deal.

Honestly...at this point, I'd just like a dev to settle this and tell us what exactly is happening here.

Speculation is getting a bit stale and I don't like where my mind is taking things.

Well they should put a peek on Lameland soon and there should be news from people who enjoy popping over there

[ToastyFred]

Well they should put a peek on Lameland soon and there should be news from people who enjoy popping over there

God, I sure hope so.

This waiting for information on the Warlock is seriously starting to freak me out.

Yes, I know. I need a life.

[Ausdoerrt]

If I had to guess I'd say that the pacts are based on alignment (like deity feats are base don race) and thus the corresponding trees stem from that.

Which means we will have a Lawful Tree (Celestial or Draconic), A Neutral Tree(not sure but Slaadi would come to mind) and a Chaotic Tree (Fey).

Personally, I'd prefer Xoriat for chaotic over Fey. Fey are boring, and hey, maybe we can at least get a nod to Eberron - after all, it's not a FR iconic, if I understood correctly. Hopefully we also get some Draconic stuff as well.

[Failedlegend]

My guess is that if the alignments are pact based the LG pact will be Con-Based and/or they'll finally get around to fixing Divine Grace,

For chaotic I agree with Ausdoer Xorian would be a way cooler pact than fey

I still hope the pacts don't = trees though so were not limited to 3 choices.

[Vargouille]

I still hope the pacts don't = trees

Good idea.

[Ausdoerrt]

I still hope the pacts don't = trees though so were not limited to 3 choices.

This actually makes sense; trees should be ability score/gameplay style based. So like STR/CON/CHA or melee/defense/spellcasting.

Then the pacts could give additional versatility on top of that.


Kinda sad about the "no shapeshifting" though (at least, that's what one of the dev posts seems to imply) - that was one of my favorite things for warlock in NWN.

[Failedlegend]

Good idea.

I appreciate the response Varg (actually I'm very much loving the increased Dev interaction from this year and the last, keep it up guys) but it just makes me want to see Warlocks even more, so much teasing from you guys :P

Kinda sad about the "no shapeshifting" though (at least, that's what one of the dev posts seems to imply) - that was one of my favorite things for warlock in NWN.

Well to be fair Druid's took forever and probably cost ALOT of man hours for just 2 forms done (with a few missing animations like resting), That said maybe they could add a third tier to animal forms where you choose the Celestial or Demonic Template for you Dire Bear or Winter Wolf when they do the Druid pass.

[Mahatu]

I very much don't want pacts limited by alignment. I think the idea goes against some of the core themes of warlock, which involve moral grey areas, a sinister, otherworldly nature, scheming and deception. Warlocks are not clerics, their alignments, goals and motives don't need to be even remotely connected with the source of their power. Get more creative with how you view alignment and the structure of pacts. The nature of a warlock's pact is largely undefined and give a great deal of room how how exactly your character came to acquire their power.

A neutral good warlock could have formed a pact with a demon (chaotic evil) to gain power to get out of a desperate situation.

A chaotic evil warlock could trick an angel (lawful good) into gaining a portion of their power to use to their own ends.

The ancestor of a true neutral warlock could have made a pact with powerful fey (generally chaotic neutral), and now they have to live with both the power and the price of that deal.

Sure, you can have your character who is good/evil/whatever make a pact with a good/evil/whatever patron so they can spread more good/evil/whatever, which is a perfectly functional choice, but it adds very little meat to a character and is frankly rather dull.

Also, I would like to note that I really don't like using alignment as a factor for "game balance." Yes, there are metagame elements to alignment (as there are to any component of a game that has even the smallest bit of mechanical weight) but it is really meant as a role play and thematic character choice. In any case, we will see what the devs have to say on the matter by sometime next week.

[Failedlegend]

I very much don't want pacts limited by alignment.

Honestly I agree with you 100% Warlocks shouldn't be limited at all in alignments, NO class should imho.

A neutral good warlock could have formed a pact with a demon (chaotic evil) to gain power to get out of a desperate situation.

A chaotic evil warlock could trick an angel (lawful good) into gaining a portion of their power to use to their own ends.

The ancestor of a true neutral warlock could have made a pact with powerful fey (generally chaotic neutral), and now they have to live with both the power and the price of that deal.

A Lawful Good Warlock could make a pact with a chaotic evil demon to eradicate a greater evil, or even to turn that demons own power against him (or a Demon pretending to be a God could trick a Paladin, Cleric,etc. into a pact claiming he is the "Chosen One" or something)

I think the idea goes against some of the core themes of warlock, which involve moral grey areas, a sinister, otherworldly nature, scheming and deception.

This I don't agree with at all not all Warlock are about these things, some might be making a pact to protect their family, some might makes pacts with a Lawful Good source. Even a straight up Chaotic Evil I'm out for myself Warlock might not necessarily be the way you describe.

In short Warlocks don't have any specific personality their just a person that gained their power through a contract with a far more powerful being of any alignment. They may not even like their patron unlike clerics.

[davmuzl]

This I don't agree with at all not all Warlock are about these things, some might be making a pact to protect their family, some might makes pacts with a Lawful Good source. Even a straight up Chaotic Evil I'm out for myself Warlock might not necessarily be the way you describe.

In short Warlocks don't have any specific personality their just a person that gained their power through a contract with a far more powerful being of any alignment. They may not even like their patron unlike clerics.

That's exactly what he is saying. A Warlock can have whatever reason he/the player wants to make a pact with whatever creature he likes. It doesn't matter if he thinks that the reasons he is doing it for a "good" reasons (whatever that means) or if he doesn't care at all. At that point you enter the grey area where you don't actually know what's the better thing to be done.

If Warlocks can't make a pact with a Demon or any evil creature for that matter I'm going to be very disappointed. No matter what the rules for Warlocks in pnp are (which should allow that?), the word itself suggests that this spellcaster a more shady person and that should be reflected in some way. If people really feel the need of being able to roll a "good" Warlock who didn't sell his soul or whatever these people do then give them the option.

Maybe a good character throwing around hellfire should burn himself? I'm actually kind of sad that these mechanics are usually not really notable in the game. When Necromancers hurt themselves it's more like he doesn't lose anything, because the damage is too little (well actually he lost action points before...) and the Barbarian self damage has been removed for whatever reason.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

Honestly I agree with you 100% Warlocks shouldn't be limited at all in alignments, NO class should imho.

I don't think it should tie warlocks to particular trees or spell flavors like sorc savants, but it's fundamentally different in DDO and PnP. Aside from the first room in PoP (as far as I can recall, atm) it's solely used as a restriction to some multiclass combinations and weapon choices.

As such, even as a iconic feature of D&D, it really has to be handled solely as a mechanic here. And it's necessary; imagine how ridiculously OP barb/pally builds would've been even a year ago, and then picture it now.

[DrWily]

That's exactly what he is saying. A Warlock can have whatever reason he/the player wants to make a pact with whatever creature he likes.

Fun Fact: Mentau made a pact with the Black Abbot because he was the only one could save Mentau's daughter from a terminal illness.

[Failedlegend]

Fun Fact: Mentau made a pact with the Black Abbot because he was the only one could save Mentau's daughter from a terminal illness.

OMG!!! Mentau is a Warlock!!!