DDOGamer: Is it Time to Take Another Look at Guild Renown Ransack?

[geoffhanna]

DDO renown potions ... 1/36th effectiveness, 100% price.

--> maybe we're doing it wrong?

[Impaqt]

The limit is in place to deter the EXACT abuse you are describing.

Working 100% as intended and no need to change.

Selling short duration pots for small amounts of points would only encourage the thing they are trying to discourage in the first place.

[geoffhanna]

The limit is in place to deter the EXACT abuse you are describing.

Working 100% as intended and no need to change.

Selling short duration pots for small amounts of points would only encourage the thing they are trying to discourage in the first place.

How do you come up with "abuse"? Are you sure you are reading the same article I wrote?

[FranOhmsford]

To the person who stated that

I have personally witnessed a new guild go from zero to 52 in the course of a month doing nothing but farming renown from sagas – and that, I feel, is too fast for one individual. No exploits, just a pot before turning in three sagas. DINGDINGDING! Rinse and repeat three days later.

Lol!

Seriously Lol!

You know that it's only 7,030,400 renown to Lvl 52 right?

You know that one person just running Heroic GH 4x per day can earn a million renown per day right? {6 man Guild with Superior 3 hr Pot for 200% bonus = 240k per Saga}

A Month to Lvl 52 isn't fast for a 6 man Guild it's very slow!

Even if the other 5 people in guild are alt accounts or newbie recruits who never log on again and are just there for the bonus!

Run a single character in a 6 account guild through Heroic GH each day and Heroic 3BC Saga once every 4 days with no pot whatsoever, take the renown each time and you've got 7 million renown in just over 3 months!
And that's if you earn no renown whatsoever elsewhere AND no-one else in your 6 account Guild earns any renown either!

This is the reason I moved my Cannith Guild Index minimum Level requirement up from 33-35 {and it will move up to 40 or 3,200,000 renown as the Guilds already listed at 35-39 level up!}.




It's once a Guild hits lvl 82 and you start needing 1 million renown per level right up to 150 that Guild levelling becomes a chore!

Last year when Sagas were introduced my own 6 account {3 of those are mine} Guild on Cannith was about Lvl 60-61 - I've pretty much soloed the Guild levels up to 97 since!
And I can tell you that it would cost an awful lot of real money to solo a guild up to 150 OR an awful lot of Cannith Challenges to earn the lesser renown pots in-game and an awful lot of solo farming Sagas!


The first 40 Guild levels are gravy these days - So easy to get that Guilds below Lvl 40 are either Brand New, Dead, Alt Guilds or Simply don't care about renown!

[FranOhmsford]

The limit is in place to deter the EXACT abuse you are describing.

Working 100% as intended and no need to change.

Selling short duration pots for small amounts of points would only encourage the thing they are trying to discourage in the first place.

I'm against short duration pots for literally the exact opposite reason!

I can run 4x Heroic GH on a 3 Hr Pot!
This = 960k renown in a day or one guild level with a little earned elsewhere!

A 30 minute pot however would be basically worthless!
Stack up your sagas beforehand, Drink 3hr pot, take all Sagas, run 3x Heroic GH, or 2x Heroic GH, 1x Heroic 3BC if you prefer.
OR
Stack up your sagas beforehand, Drink 30 minute pot, take all Sagas, Waste the other 30 minutes maybe gaining 15k renown or so if you're lucky!

The 3hr and 30 minute pots give the exact same benefit to stacking up all your sagas beforehand BUT the 30 minute pot gives you no time to earn more renown - It may as well be a 1 minute pot!



Not sure about abuse either.
It seems to be blatantly WAI and for Jerry to state that the Devs never thought Renown Pots and Sagas would be used this way seems a bit off!
Renown earned from questing simply doesn't justify buying a Renown Pot - Renown earned from Sagas DOES!

The Devs surely know that their renown pot earnings are down to Sagas?

Renown Pots aren't cheap and killing our renown chances after using one is a bit nasty in my view!


Basically I've learned that when I use a Renown Pot to earn a Guild Level on Cannith I may as well go spend the rest of the day on Sarlona as I won't earn any more Renown that day on Cannith!
OR do some favour farming, Slayer completions {Renown is so rare doing either of these two things that what little could have been got isn't an issue!}.




I've stated on multiple occasions that Renown is too heavily geared towards Elite BB Questing {Sagas actually exacerbate this partly in that to get real worth out of them you HAVE to run Elite only! BB isn't necessary thank goodness!!!}.

No...I'm not asking for Lvl 28s Favour Farming the Harbour to earn renown while doing so!

But:
1) Renown Penalties need to be changed:
Full Renown given up to 4 levels above the base quest level if run on Elite {3 levels above on Hard, 2 levels above on Normal}.
Full Renown given in Slayer Chests so long as the Player is in the Slayer's Lvl Range for Full XP!
50% Renown given up to 6 levels above the base quest level if run on Elite, 4 levels above on Hard, 3 levels above on Normal).
50% Renown given in Slayer Chests so long as the Player is within 2 levels of the Maximum Lvl for Full XP in that Slayer!
No Renown given above these Levels!

2) Guild Size Bonuses need to be Changed to incentivise larger {note larger NOT large!} Guilds!
Remove Bonuses under 3 accounts.
Current 6 account {300%} Bonus moved to 15 accounts.
3-5 accounts to gain current 1 account bonus {150%}, 6-8 accounts to gain current 3 account bonus {210%), 9-11 accounts to gain current 4 account bonus {240%), 12-14 accounts to gain current 5 account bonus {270%).

1-15 accounts = Small Guild
16-75 accounts = Medium Guild and the Guild Size Bonus {200%) stays exactly the same whether the Guild has 16 or 75 accounts!
76-200 accounts = Large Guild and the Guild Size Bonus {100%) stays exactly the same whether that Guild has 76 or 200 accounts!
201+ accounts = Huge Guild {No Guild Size Bonus!}.

Pretty much all Guilds would stay under 200 accounts but how many have more than that even now? 2 or 3 per Server?

3) Inactivity needs to be looked at too - 1 month is too short.
3 Months should be the limit after which a Guild should receive no penalty for removing an inactive player!
However the penalties for removing a player who's still considered active would need to be higher.
Mass Invite Guilds however would suffer {at first - They'd soon get used to the change!} from having a massive amount of players who'd quit the game after a day or so clogging up their Guild for 3 months!

3a) Obviously there's also the issue of players joining a guild then leaving when they don't like what they see OR quitting the game and deleting their character.
A Deleted Character should not count as a recent departure OR remove any renown from the Guild upon deletion no matter whether that player has another character in guild or not!
A 3 day Period of Grace should be added so that Players can have the opportunity to shop around and if they decide this guild isn't for them and move on within those 3 days they should again not count towards recent departures OR remove any renown from the guild upon leaving!

[laurawilder]

The first 40 Guild levels are gravy these days - So easy to get that Guilds below Lvl 40 are either Brand New, Dead, Alt Guilds or Simply don't care about renown![/QUOTE]



I think you are over stating the ease a tad. Even the levels from say 28-40 require 225k or so to raise and would require using a major pot to get say 225k for each run of the saga on True Elite. That would mean a solo person in a six person guild could achieve jumping those twelve levels spending all that on major pots and the time each day to run the saga and giving on average 8 minutes for each quest set aside 90 minutes a day just on GH for the purpose of renown.

Many people that work for a living and have a family I think would find the game futile if the must focus only on this task.

Mind you I do not desire a change to the system myself as it is I feel easy enough to do if someone is driven and focused on that goal. But stating they do not care is an overstatement and harsh in a manner of speaking.

[FranOhmsford]

I think you are over stating the ease a tad. Even the levels from say 28-40 require 225k or so to raise and would require using a major pot to get say 225k for each run of the saga on True Elite. That would mean a solo person in a six person guild could achieve jumping those twelve levels spending all that on major pots and the time each day to run the saga and giving on average 8 minutes for each quest set aside 90 minutes a day just on GH for the purpose of renown.

Many people that work for a living and have a family I think would find the game futile if the must focus only on this task.

Mind you I do not desire a change to the system myself as it is I feel easy enough to do if someone is driven and focused on that goal. But stating they do not care is an overstatement and harsh in a manner of speaking.

My point is that the People who are levelling new Guilds super fast are by and large veteran players with Epic capable characters leaving their old Guilds to start up their own smaller Guilds.

These people by and large have a full Stack of Sagas and a Guild Renown Pot handy when they start their new Guild!

They fill it up to 6 accounts.

Then they drink the Pot, Hand in the Sagas and Profit!

There's currently 11 Sagas in DDO - That's 2,640,000 Renown right off the bat! {add in blasting through Heroic GH twice and Heroic 3BC once on an Epic Capable Character to use up the Pot and you can add another 720k Renown to that!}.

If they get a couple of Friends to start up the Guild with them then they're likely level 50 within a day! {and yes you can keep earning Saga Renown past the Renown Cap - It's just standard Renown that gets stopped!}.

[Impaqt]

Not sure about abuse either.
It seems to be blatantly WAI and for Jerry to state that the Devs never thought Renown Pots and Sagas would be used this way seems a bit off!
Renown earned from questing simply doesn't justify buying a Renown Pot - Renown earned from Sagas DOES!

The Devs surely know that their renown pot earnings are down to Sagas?

You do realize renown pots were a thing before sagas came into existence?

sometimes new systems interact with old systems in unanticipated ways.

[laurawilder]

Renown needs and guild lvl raising is the 3 lvl cap limit in a day by conventional earning. If I were a new f2p player and had several friends also join with me and we were hard grinding all day I would be upset that after say getting through waterworks we were cutoff.

We are to low for all saga and even if we reached 3bc lvl we would need to have paid for those quests. Keep in mind I am fine and agree with the lowest one being a paid pack, but renown should just drop at normal rates for appropriate levels I feel unlimited. If my friends and I want to binge play and then drop rates should not have a limit at three lvl eaned in one day and then basically stop.

I have many times started a guild for others I know since I am VIP grab them a name, have them join and then run say 3bc saga quick for them just to get a basic jump for the first ship in say an hour.

So why not not just let them grind it out slowly and naturally if that is what they want. The cap was made so that guilds do not jump fast and yet with the sagas people do they very thing the cap limit was created for. So now that the point is moot they need to do away with the 3 level cap limit in one day for drop rates.

Other than that I would not make changes to the system based on people that can run a True Elite Saga averaging 4 minutes a quest. The game is not nor should not be built for those dynamics.

[Cordovan]

*snip*

Not sure about abuse either.
It seems to be blatantly WAI and for Jerry to state that the Devs never thought Renown Pots and Sagas would be used this way seems a bit off!
Renown earned from questing simply doesn't justify buying a Renown Pot - Renown earned from Sagas DOES!

The Devs surely know that their renown pot earnings are down to Sagas?

Renown Pots aren't cheap and killing our renown chances after using one is a bit nasty in my view!

Basically I've learned that when I use a Renown Pot to earn a Guild Level on Cannith I may as well go spend the rest of the day on Sarlona as I won't earn any more Renown that day on Cannith!
OR do some favour farming, Slayer completions {Renown is so rare doing either of these two things that what little could have been got isn't an issue!}.

*snip*

I did want to clarify that as Impaqt stated, it's important to remember that guild renown and the renown elixirs predated sagas.

If you interpreted what I stated as us "never thinking" that the elixirs would be used after completing sagas, then I may not have stated things correctly. What I meant to say was that these items are not currently built to explicitly support the particular tactic of completing every saga in the game, then waiting for a +30% Guild Renown weekend and stacking the best Guild Renown Elixir on top of it, thereby earning so much renown that you hit the daily renown cap within minutes of consumption, if a primary concern of yours when purchasing that particular elixir is to get a saga-completion-level of benefit throughout the entirety of the six-hour duration, in one gaming session, on that character.

[geoffhanna]

I did want to clarify that as Impaqt stated, it's important to remember that guild renown and the renown elixirs predated sagas.

If you interpreted what I stated as us "never thinking" that the elixirs would be used after completing sagas, then I may not have stated things correctly. What I meant to say was that these items are not currently built to explicitly support the particular tactic of completing every saga in the game, then waiting for a +30% Guild Renown weekend and stacking the best Guild Renown Elixir on top of it, thereby earning so much renown that you hit the daily renown cap within minutes of consumption, if a primary concern of yours when purchasing that particular elixir is to get a saga-completion-level of benefit throughout the entirety of the six-hour duration, in one gaming session, on that character.

Are you certain about that one character part? Our very informal testing seemed to indicate that everyone in the guild was affected.

[Cordovan]

Are you certain about that one character part? Our very informal testing seemed to indicate that everyone in the guild was affected.

Yes, it is by guild. What I meant is that you could switch to a different character, one that is presumably not in the guild, or at least does not have an elixir active and doesn't mind "giving up" a small amount of renown while questing during that day.

[Chai]

To the person who stated that

Lol!

Seriously Lol!

You know that it's only 7,030,400 renown to Lvl 52 right?

You know that one person just running Heroic GH 4x per day can earn a million renown per day right? {6 man Guild with Superior 3 hr Pot for 200% bonus = 240k per Saga}

Heroic sagas are once per life.

Epic on the other hand, can be repeated.

[Eryhn]

copying this over from the blog comments, assuming thats from Cordovan - not rly sure why you didnt leave that here in the first place since its a more detailed reply than given in thread

Jerry says:
April 27, 2015 at 11:33 am

Yes, the limit described by Tolero remains accurate, and your experience in not seeing renown after hitting ransack is expected. I don’t know that when we created Guild Renown Elixirs that our intention was to support min/maxing sagas in the way you described (leaving them all for a renown weekend, then topping it off with an Elixir to create a blitz of massive renown gain.) The typical behavior for these elixirs is to consume them then see the benefits over the entirety of their duration while questing normally (as defined by however you define “normal”.) Clearly, folks see the benefit of consuming one after completing sagas, and we support of that plan , but it should be noted that if you wait until “perfect conditions” exist and then gain renown like mad, you may run into the cap.

If your goal is to truly maximize the elixir and get every minute possible out of it, it may be worth playing an alt for a few hours after blitzing renown, then returning to that character when ransack has reset. That said, you – did – technically get a nice benefit from the renown, in that you received significant benefits from Saga renown rewards. It’s just that you planned ahead and got so many of them ready to go that you were able to hit the 3ish level cap per day in less than the duration of the potion.

The community might well be able to present a case for a guild level daily cap removal, but there are design and other reasons why that cap is in place.

anyways, im totally fine with this as things are. there are enough ways in which guilds can meaningfully pool their ressources to effectively speed up leveling up. the pots work just fine as is and fullfill their purpose as intended. there is a lot of small guilds who do not group farm sagas occasionally (left alone regularly) but just run content the standard way, to those it would be a slap in the face to shorten pot duration like somebody suggested just so that some powerlevelers solely using them on saga dont feel they wasted 5h50. its been some time since I read so destructive and badly thought out a suggestion to solve a nonexistant problem!

increasing the cap of 3 levels further also doesn't strike me as all too brlliant, rly: if you think about it, 3 levels/day is a lot. also, the cap serves both as a buffer for smaller, more casual guilds which otherwise could not keep up, and as a future line of defense I would like to remain right where it is in case some future update accidentally breaks a certain bandaid applied in necropolis ...

if people are unhappy with the remaining 5h50 after saga turn in being affected by ransack, use your head a bit and use up 5h of pot on the last quests before turning in saga, then do whatever with the 50mins remaining? seems as simple as evident to me, unless you miscalculate the timing in which case its "run forest, run!!!"

PS: While I DO level our guild with sagas actively, I never managed to hit ransack, regardless, I would much like to know an *exact* time frame (preferably in hours, not days) on how long it takes till the ransack completely resets to zero (from each of its tiers/stages) - considering pots are possibly store bought it would only be fair to clearly make the community aware of the details here, all the more so since all relevant posts(like Tolero's mentioned above) on the topic seem to be from some time ago.

[madmaxhunter]

I'm against short duration pots for literally the exact opposite reason!

I can run 4x Heroic GH on a 3 Hr Pot!
This = 960k renown in a day or one guild level with a little earned elsewhere!

A 30 minute pot however would be basically worthless!
Stack up your sagas beforehand, Drink 3hr pot, take all Sagas, run 3x Heroic GH, or 2x Heroic GH, 1x Heroic 3BC if you prefer.
OR
Stack up your sagas beforehand, Drink 30 minute pot, take all Sagas, Waste the other 30 minutes maybe gaining 15k renown or so if you're lucky!

The 3hr and 30 minute pots give the exact same benefit to stacking up all your sagas beforehand BUT the 30 minute pot gives you no time to earn more renown - It may as well be a 1 minute pot!



Not sure about abuse either.
It seems to be blatantly WAI and for Jerry to state that the Devs never thought Renown Pots and Sagas would be used this way seems a bit off!
Renown earned from questing simply doesn't justify buying a Renown Pot - Renown earned from Sagas DOES!

The Devs surely know that their renown pot earnings are down to Sagas?

Renown Pots aren't cheap and killing our renown chances after using one is a bit nasty in my view!


Basically I've learned that when I use a Renown Pot to earn a Guild Level on Cannith I may as well go spend the rest of the day on Sarlona as I won't earn any more Renown that day on Cannith!
OR do some favour farming, Slayer completions {Renown is so rare doing either of these two things that what little could have been got isn't an issue!}.




I've stated on multiple occasions that Renown is too heavily geared towards Elite BB Questing {Sagas actually exacerbate this partly in that to get real worth out of them you HAVE to run Elite only! BB isn't necessary thank goodness!!!}.

No...I'm not asking for Lvl 28s Favour Farming the Harbour to earn renown while doing so!

But:
1) Renown Penalties need to be changed:
Full Renown given up to 4 levels above the base quest level if run on Elite {3 levels above on Hard, 2 levels above on Normal}.
Full Renown given in Slayer Chests so long as the Player is in the Slayer's Lvl Range for Full XP!
50% Renown given up to 6 levels above the base quest level if run on Elite, 4 levels above on Hard, 3 levels above on Normal).
50% Renown given in Slayer Chests so long as the Player is within 2 levels of the Maximum Lvl for Full XP in that Slayer!
No Renown given above these Levels!

I agree, the system is strange on when and what renown is given.

2) Guild Size Bonuses need to be Changed to incentivise larger {note larger NOT large!} Guilds!
Remove Bonuses under 3 accounts.
Current 6 account {300%} Bonus moved to 15 accounts.
3-5 accounts to gain current 1 account bonus {150%}, 6-8 accounts to gain current 3 account bonus {210%), 9-11 accounts to gain current 4 account bonus {240%), 12-14 accounts to gain current 5 account bonus {270%).

1-15 accounts = Small Guild
16-75 accounts = Medium Guild and the Guild Size Bonus {200%) stays exactly the same whether the Guild has 16 or 75 accounts!
76-200 accounts = Large Guild and the Guild Size Bonus {100%) stays exactly the same whether that Guild has 76 or 200 accounts!
201+ accounts = Huge Guild {No Guild Size Bonus!}.

Pretty much all Guilds would stay under 200 accounts but how many have more than that even now? 2 or 3 per Server?

Do not agree, it's too much of a pain to get (quality) players anymore. To keep six we have to run a couple dual boxer accounts. The rest of the players are taken by the mega and spammer guilds.

3) Inactivity needs to be looked at too - 1 month is too short.
3 Months should be the limit after which a Guild should receive no penalty for removing an inactive player!
However the penalties for removing a player who's still considered active would need to be higher.
Mass Invite Guilds however would suffer {at first - They'd soon get used to the change!} from having a massive amount of players who'd quit the game after a day or so clogging up their Guild for 3 months!

I agree to all of this. I had a guildie who had not played in nearly two years log on and remove all of his toons from the guild. He later told me he wasn't sure he was going to come back to play and didn't want to affect the guild. I have inactive players from over 4 years ago. Would like to clean up the list.

3a) Obviously there's also the issue of players joining a guild then leaving when they don't like what they see OR quitting the game and deleting their character.
A Deleted Character should not count as a recent departure OR remove any renown from the Guild upon deletion no matter whether that player has another character in guild or not!
A 3 day Period of Grace should be added so that Players can have the opportunity to shop around and if they decide this guild isn't for them and move on within those 3 days they should again not count towards recent departures OR remove any renown from the guild upon leaving!

Had that happen recently. Player was looking for a guild in Defense channel. I let him in, he was a recently returning player. He then discovered some of his old friends were playing and left the guild. Dealing with guild matters is absolutely no fun, and will be the reason I will eventually quit this game.

[ComicRelief]

Heroic sagas are once per life. *snip*

This is no longer correct. They changed it back to where you can once again repeat heroic sagas - there is no longer a "once per life" limit, but there is a "raid" timer on them, now (though I think some are incorrectly using a 4-day, instead of supposed to be 3-day, timer) . I don't remember specifically which update/patch it was, but I wrote about it in my blog back in August 2014 (here: http://chezcr.blogspot.com/2014/08/backpedaling.html).

{See what I did there?}

[JOTMON]

I did want to clarify that as Impaqt stated, it's important to remember that guild renown and the renown elixirs predated sagas.

If you interpreted what I stated as us "never thinking" that the elixirs would be used after completing sagas, then I may not have stated things correctly. What I meant to say was that these items are not currently built to explicitly support the particular tactic of completing every saga in the game, then waiting for a +30% Guild Renown weekend and stacking the best Guild Renown Elixir on top of it, thereby earning so much renown that you hit the daily renown cap within minutes of consumption, if a primary concern of yours when purchasing that particular elixir is to get a saga-completion-level of benefit throughout the entirety of the six-hour duration, in one gaming session, on that character.

So why did you not just change saga rewards to be unaffected by renown pots.

[FranOhmsford]

Heroic sagas are once per life.

Why don't you pop over to Gianthold Chai and check before making blatantly false statements!

Heck even Heroic 3BC can be run once every 4 days!

[Cordovan]

So why did you not just change saga rewards to be unaffected by renown pots.

We have no interest in doing that.

[FranOhmsford]

We have no interest in doing that.

Because the profits from DDOStore sales of Renown Pots would Plummet!


In normal Elite questing Renown is so random that Buying Renown Pots is a complete waste!

They may have been available before Sagas were introduced but I'm absolutely certain that sales will have jumped since!

The Cannith Challenge Pots are annoyingly bound to character on acquire {I picked up 15 of them on a character I had every intention of TRing at the time {That was months ago and he's still not TRd because at the moment he's capable of blasting through Heroic Sagas and getting major renown but a TR would be a waste of the pot/s he's currently drunk!}.
What I wanted was to share out those pots between my 28 characters on Cannith but ended up with them all on one {silly me for not checking bind status beforehand!}.

Anyway those Challenge Pots are only 100% bonus so they hit the DDOStore sales of lesser renown pots but the true big money sellers are the 200% Pots!



It's astonishing to me that the Devs are so disagreeable about the Renown issues in DDO - Constantly catering only to the Elite when Guilds are meant for EVERYONE!
There's no way I can make a decent renown return without Heroic Sagas and cutting off my renown earnings after handing in those Sagas is wrong!
P.S. This thread is about the 3 level cap - I've noticed vastly diminished renown rewards after taking just ONE level on multiple occasions!
3 lvls I could live with as that requires an entire stack of Sagas + 3 more heroics on the same day to reach!