DDOGamer: Is it Time to Take Another Look at Guild Renown Ransack?

[Impaqt]

It's astonishing to me that the Devs are so disagreeable about the Renown issues in DDO - Constantly catering only to the Elite when Guilds are meant for EVERYONE!
There's no way I can make a decent renown return without Heroic Sagas and cutting off my renown earnings after handing in those Sagas is wrong!

How exactly do you think the renown system currently caters to "Elites"?

everything "Elite" about guild renown and levels was stripped away. being 150+ means absolutely nothing.

[twigzz]

IMO everything works fine as it is.


However, I had no idea they changed heroic saga's back(dont mind the timer)! /clap

[FranOhmsford]

How exactly do you think the renown system currently caters to "Elites"?

everything "Elite" about guild renown and levels was stripped away. being 150+ means absolutely nothing.

Then why are so many Guilds still levelling past 150?

Then why are so many Guilds already lvl 200?

Then why is Renown so hard to get unless you run Elite BB religiously and/or farm Sagas?


Let's also talk about what is meant by "Elites" in this context:

I'm talking about the fact that it doesn't matter whether an "Elite" player WANTS to level his/her Guild or not! The way they play the game means that's going to happen anyway!
What I'm saying is that for the non-elite player who WANTS to level his/her Guild or HELP his/her Guild to level and not feel like he/she is just along for the ride it's a whole different story!

The Devs insistence on making the renown penalties for overlevelling so extreme makes it very very hard for the non-elite player to make a viable contribution {or FEEL that he/she is making a viable contribution!}.

Let's face it I pick up Guild Renown at every opportunity but when I left my old Guild on Sarlona earlier this year after about 4 years as a member my 14 characters combined took a grand total of about 100k renown with them {meaning that on ALL those characters I'd earned about 1 million renown total in that time! - Not one of them was under Lvl 15 1st Life and many were in Epic Levels or TRd}.

For a good portion of those 4 years {about half!} I've been running literally ONLY Elite BB in Heroic Quests! And I'll say again - Renown Reward pops in End Reward List I ALWAYS {well 99% of the time - the other 1% is when I'm after a specific named item or a tome drops) take it!.


As for my own much smaller Guild on Cannith - 5 years now and I've earned the vast majority of the 42,000,000 renown we currently have!
Of that probably 75% has been earned from Sagas alone!

Renown needs to be much more available outside of Sagas!

Renown needs to be available to a wider range of Players!

The Devs say that Heroic Sagas are meant for Heroic Players but what Heroic Players are they talking about?
The veterans or farmers who create a Lvl 7 alt or Lvl 15 Iconic alt {or 6} to run a Saga, take the renown, delete and go again?
The players like myself who farm Heroic Sagas on Epic Characters because they give the quickest renown gain?
Actual standard Heroic Players who may feel pressured into taking the Guild Renown over the XP or +1 skill tomes?

See - Even if the Devs are aiming those Sagas at the 3rd type of Player the reality is that the first two types of players are the ones profiting!

[Wipey]

It's astonishing to me that the Devs are so disagreeable about the Renown issues in DDO - Constantly catering only to the Elite when Guilds are meant for EVERYONE!

Sorry Fran but this stopped being true when account size based daily decay got removed few years ago.

[Impaqt]

Then why are so many Guilds still levelling past 150?

Then why are so many Guilds already lvl 200?

Then why is Renown so hard to get unless you run Elite BB religiously and/or farm Sagas?


Let's also talk about what is meant by "Elites" in this context:

I'm talking about the fact that it doesn't matter whether an "Elite" player WANTS to level his/her Guild or not! The way they play the game means that's going to happen anyway!
What I'm saying is that for the non-elite player who WANTS to level his/her Guild or HELP his/her Guild to level and not feel like he/she is just along for the ride it's a whole different story!

The Devs insistence on making the renown penalties for overlevelling so extreme makes it very very hard for the non-elite player to make a viable contribution {or FEEL that he/she is making a viable contribution!}.

Let's face it I pick up Guild Renown at every opportunity but when I left my old Guild on Sarlona earlier this year after about 4 years as a member my 14 characters combined took a grand total of about 100k renown with them {meaning that on ALL those characters I'd earned about 1 million renown total in that time! - Not one of them was under Lvl 15 1st Life and many were in Epic Levels or TRd}.

For a good portion of those 4 years {about half!} I've been running literally ONLY Elite BB in Heroic Quests! And I'll say again - Renown Reward pops in End Reward List I ALWAYS {well 99% of the time - the other 1% is when I'm after a specific named item or a tome drops) take it!.


As for my own much smaller Guild on Cannith - 5 years now and I've earned the vast majority of the 42,000,000 renown we currently have!
Of that probably 75% has been earned from Sagas alone!

Renown needs to be much more available outside of Sagas!

Renown needs to be available to a wider range of Players!

The Devs say that Heroic Sagas are meant for Heroic Players but what Heroic Players are they talking about?
The veterans or farmers who create a Lvl 7 alt or Lvl 15 Iconic alt {or 6} to run a Saga, take the renown, delete and go again?
The players like myself who farm Heroic Sagas on Epic Characters because they give the quickest renown gain?
Actual standard Heroic Players who may feel pressured into taking the Guild Renown over the XP or +1 skill tomes?

See - Even if the Devs are aiming those Sagas at the 3rd type of Player the reality is that the first two types of players are the ones profiting!

Did you answer my question? I dont see it. How exactly does the current system cater to "elites"

Or do you actually think running Heroic quests when capped makes a payer "elite"? I'm missing something here.

I agree that renown should be more available outside of sagas. but as far as your solo guild not leveling fast enough for you. Sorry. Totally support turbines decision to enforce the same restriction on you as every other guild in the game. Totally support them not catering to people who abuse the saga/renown/elixer mechanic.

[FranOhmsford]

Did you answer my question? I dont see it. How exactly does the current system cater to "elites"

Or do you actually think running Heroic quests when capped makes a payer "elite"? I'm missing something here.

I agree that renown should be more available outside of sagas. but as far as your solo guild not leveling fast enough for you. Sorry. Totally support turbines decision to enforce the same restriction on you as every other guild in the game. Totally support them not catering to people who abuse the saga/renown/elixer mechanic.

That was an EXAMPLE!

This isn't just about my Guild! This is to do with EVERYONE!
Oh and btw I've never been the ONLY player in my Guild - There's always been at least 3 of us and currently there's 10 {13 accounts}.


No - Running Heroic quests when capped does NOT make a Player "Elite"! As I stated: I'm doing that and I am in NO WAY Elite!

Why you keep ignoring the point just to make personal attacks on me however I do not know!

The point is that the ONLY way outside of Sagas to earn viable amounts of Renown with the current completely random system is to farm certain high chest count quests mainly using the XP/Min quick route to 28 completely ignoring the likes of Slayers and don't bother wasting time going back to collect Favour from all the quests you've missed!

That is what is catering to the "Elite" BECAUSE it is catering SPECIFICALLY to how they play the game!

When only one way of playing the game is catered to is when we have a problem!

Sagas have their own issues of course - Heroic Sagas as I have pointed out do = quick easy renown for people willing to put on hold everything else!
But the REAL Renown rewards are gained through stacking up EVERY Saga on True Elite and considering 8 of the 11 Sagas are Epic that's literally only available to the Elite!
What can I get on a 3hr 200% Pot?
- Heroic 3BC, Heroic GH stacked + 3x Heroic GH while the Pot's running = 1.2million renown! {I could also stack up the Heroic E-Star Saga but that's such a pain in the posterior with Wheloon and Druid's Deep being involved that I'd prefer to shoot myself than run it more than once per life - if that!}
What can the Elite get from that same pot?
- 11 Sagas stacked + 3x Heroic GH while the Pot's running = 3.360,000! {Not counting all the renown they get while running those EEs at level!}.
Rather a big difference wouldn't you say?

Now of course the problem isn't that Epics have more renown!
The problem is that that renown is weighted so heavily towards Epic Elite!
Epic Normal takes far longer than Heroic Elite even if you run those Heroic Elite Sagas for E-BB and the Epic Normals at Lvl 28!
Yet Epic Normal is so far behind on the reward scale!
Even if EN gave the same reward as Heroic True Elite it would probably STILL be quicker to farm the Heroics BUT it wouldn't be such a disparity as we currently have!

[FranOhmsford]

Sorry Fran but this stopped being true when account size based daily decay got removed few years ago.

The benefits of that change have been massively overstated!

Yes it's made a big difference - I'd never have got my Guild anywhere near it's current level without it!

But look at the Guilds on my https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...d-List-Lvl-175 thread!
How many of them are {or were prior to hitting whatever level they were aiming for} 6 man Guilds?
I know for a fact that the first Guilds on Cannith and Sarlona to hit 200 were both 6 man Guilds!
Yes some of the Bigger well known Guilds are also hitting the heights now but they were always going to with or without decay!


The difference between getting 240k renown from a Saga in a 6 man guild or 60k renown in a 20 man Guild is MASSIVE!
Lose the Pot and that becomes 60k vs 15k!

The medium sized Guilds need EVERYBODY to pull their weight whereas a 6 man Guild can be levelled by one commited player! {a 6 man Guild with 6 committed players will hit 200 in no time flat as proven by a number of them already!}.



Decay going away helped - it helped a lot - BUT it's not the be all and end all!



There's far more issues with Renown than just Decay!



In fact - Considering the frankly pitiful Daily Decay the Devs put back in at 150+ supposedly in order to make Lvl 200 only available to the most avid farmers! I'd say that Decay could do with a bit of a comeback!

Only at Lvl 150+ of course!

But if those levels are truly only for bragging rights then make those who want them EARN them!



P.S. 150 is the level that Guilds are aiming for now - It's took me 5 years to earn the 42,000,000 renown to get to Lvl 97, I doubt my Guild will EVER see 150 considering that's another 53,000,000 renown away BUT if we do it will be only another week at most before we're 160!
Why are Lvls 151-159 so ludicrously cheap exactly?

[geoffhanna]

Are you guys an old married couple? Just curious.

None of the arguments in favor of the status quo change the fact that my wife and I (who are a newlywed old married couple) each spent two month's worth of Turbine Points on something that only lasted 10 minutes. And that is just wrong.

I get Jerry's explanation of the event timing that caused this. But understanding why something happens does not make it right.

Now that I've had some time to think, and read everyone's responses, I think the best answer is to remove renown ransack when you are on a guild renown boost potion. Not for the whole guild, just for you and whoever else might be on a guild renown boost potion.

Now back to your regularly scheduled bickering, already in progress

[UurlockYgmeov]

Are you guys an old married couple? Just curious.

None of the arguments in favor of the status quo change the fact that my wife and I each spent two month's worth of Turbine Points on something that only lasted 10 minutes. And that is just wrong.

I get Jerry's explanation of the event timing that caused this. But understanding why something happens does not make it right.

Now that I've had some time to think, and read everyone's responses, I think the best answer is to remove renown decay when you are on a guild renown boost potion. Not for the whole guild, just for you and whoever else might be on a guild renown boost potion.

Now back to your regularly scheduled bickering, already in progress

think you might mean guild renown ransack instead of decay --- if you do -then agree - if on pot should experience renown ransack (for that character) --- but if you mean decay (which only applies to lv150+ guilds) - nope.

[geoffhanna]

Yes I meant ransack. Will edit reply. And good catch!

[UurlockYgmeov]

Yes I meant ransack. Will edit reply. And good catch!

I didn't - gotta give proper credit - my Kobold powered spell checker (and grammar) (and common sense) (alright Kobold be quiet already!!!) did

[Postumus]

To the person who stated that


You know that it's only 7,030,400 renown to Lvl 52 right?

A Month to Lvl 52 isn't fast for a 6 man Guild it's very slow!


It's once a Guild hits lvl 82 and you start needing 1 million renown per level right up to 150 that Guild levelling becomes a chore!


The first 40 Guild levels are gravy these days - So easy to get that Guilds below Lvl 40 are either Brand New, Dead, Alt Guilds or Simply don't care about renown!

Great points. All true.

[eachna_gislin]

The first 40 Guild levels are gravy these days - So easy to get that Guilds below Lvl 40 are either Brand New, Dead, Alt Guilds or Simply don't care about renown!

laurawilder, That's nonsense.

I play regularly on both Orien and Sarlona. On Sarlona, I'm part of a small guild. We have about six to eight active members.

We all care about our guild. We're proud of the guild name. We run together (when we can). We each contribute to the betterment of the guild and the membership. However, we level very slowly. When we get a level, we all *notice* and feel excited about it. We level entirely off chest and reward list renown.

We don't grind out sagas for renown. We've all discussed it and agreed that if we do sagas, we take the xp for our characters. We have a navigator, and assorted at-level buffs. The rest will come with time. Some people are fine with slow progress. Slow progress is not the same as not "caring".

[FranOhmsford]

laurawilder, That's nonsense.

I play regularly on both Orien and Sarlona. On Sarlona, I'm part of a small guild. We have about six to eight active members.

We all care about our guild. We're proud of the guild name. We run together (when we can). We each contribute to the betterment of the guild and the membership. However, we level very slowly. When we get a level, we all *notice* and feel excited about it. We level entirely off chest and reward list renown.

We don't grind out sagas for renown. We've all discussed it and agreed that if we do sagas, we take the xp for our characters. We have a navigator, and assorted at-level buffs. The rest will come with time. Some people are fine with slow progress. Slow progress is not the same as not "caring".

Laura quoted me there and actually argued against that quote!

BUT apart from that you've also made my point for me because at the end of that quote I actually did put

Or simply don't care about renown

which obviously your guild doesn't!

You've even gone so far as to state that you had a Guild Meeting and decided to take the in my view completely superfluous XP from Saga Rewards rather than the Renown!
You don't NEED to grind out Sagas to level a low level Guild - A single True Elite Saga Renown Reward with no Pot bonus whatsoever = 60k Renown for a 6 account Guild and about 57k for an 8 account Guild!
That would immediately level up any Guild below Lvl 20 and would require only a couple of Impressive Trophies during that Saga run to level up a Lvl 20 Guild to 21!

Now if you all run Sagas together then 6x60k = 360k renown {I'm sure you can afford to do that once out of 11 Sagas} And that would immediately level up any 6-8 man Guild below Lvl 50!

Now if you run Cannith Challenges at all you can pick up 100% Renown Pots in-game!
720K renown will immediately level up any guild below Lvl 68 and would give 2 levels to a guild below Lvl 49!

Now maybe you care about your Guild - I'm not saying you don't!
What I'm saying is that you don't care about Renown - For you it comes as it comes!



And I did specifically state that this counts only for the lowest levels i.e. the first 40!
A Guild that doesn't care about renown will still hit that level in time but it's very easy to see which Guilds are moving at those lower levels and which aren't!

BTW What level is your Guild? If you play enough to have run multiple Sagas then I'd guess that even without taking Saga Renown Rewards you're probably in the low 30s anyway.

[Talon_Dragonsbane]

Couldn't find the answer in forum or wiki. My guild has some toons with sagas prepped for guild renown rewards. If we all turn-in the rewards on the same day, can we exceed the daily 3 level guild cap? or will we lose the excess? I don't want to mess this up and lose a saga reward for nothing.

[FranOhmsford]

Couldn't find the answer in forum or wiki. My guild has some toons with sagas prepped for guild renown rewards. If we all turn-in the rewards on the same day, can we exceed the daily 3 level guild cap? or will we lose the excess? I don't want to mess this up and lose a saga reward for nothing.

Saga Renown is a static amount and will not be affected by Renown Ransack!

This is one of the actual problems with how the Ransack system works btw!

Say your 6 man Guild is Lvl 100 and all 6 of you have just completed all 11 Sagas - You all drink a Superior Renown Pot {which means each Saga gives 240k Renown without any extra boosts from renown weekends} and hand in all 11 Sagas:
11 Sagas x 240k per Saga = 2,640,000 Renown per Player {Or Alt Account}!
Now times that by 6 Players and you've just earned 15,840,000 Renown in the time it took to run from NPC to NPC.
Or more to the point you're now Lvl 115 and over half way to 116!

Now you all still have 3 hrs left on those Renown Pots but normal questing even on EE would give you virtually NO renown rewards for the next 24 Hrs!
Whereas you could simply go back on your Lvl 28 Characters {You've just completed 8 EE Sagas so if you're less than Lvl 28 well done!} and re-run Heroic GH 3x in those 3 hrs and earn another 720k per player {or alt account} x 6 = 4,320,000 Renown or if you prefer you're now Lvl 120!

20 Guild Levels in 3 Hrs! {Obviously you took the time to set that up but the renown earnings all came in those 3 hrs!}.

You STILL can't earn Renown from regular questing for the next 24 hrs but at this point you don't care!


Oh and Lvl 150-170 = 21 million renown so you can almost completely skip the Dark Blue and Green Guildnames and go straight to yellow from Lvl 154

[FranOhmsford]

P.S. 150 is the level that Guilds are aiming for now - It's took me 5 years to earn the 42,000,000 renown to get to Lvl 97, I doubt my Guild will EVER see 150 considering that's another 53,000,000 renown away BUT if we do it will be only another week at most before we're 160!
Why are Lvls 151-159 so ludicrously cheap exactly?

Well I'm Lvl 111 and a half so let's see now...The above was posted by me on 04-29-2015.

It's now 12-23-2015

So it's took me 8 months {or will have done after I get a few Sagas run this week} to get 15 Guild Levels {97-112} at 1 mil renown per level.

So that's an average of a Level every 2 weeks or for the 38 Levels I need to hit 150 - 76 weeks {17 Months} or sometime in summer 2018 IF I continue at that pace which is highly unlikely as my renown pots have run out!