Dodge on the new Dex assassins

[redoubt]

I've run some quick numbers and would like to get further ideas.

Max Dex Bonus: Light shadow armor starts at 19
19
2 - mobility feat / item
6 - lithe
6 - light armor mastery
2 - armored agility augment
2 - fencing master (in game description says both MDB and maximum dodge. Wiki appears to be incorrect on this buff.)
3 - shadow dodge
---
40

Maximum Dodge:
25 base
2 - fencing master
3 - light armor mastery
6 - acrobat cores to level 18
---
36 (Note: this is correct with my live testing. I'm at 30% on live w/o acrobat.)

Dodge
11 - item
2 - mobility feat / item
3 - dodge
6 - uncanny dodge
3 - unearthly reactions
3 - shadow dodge
---
28
7 - untouchable (shadow charges)
----
35

When MTF is activated these should go up to:
40% MDB (no change)
46% Maximum dodge (+10 mtf)
45% Dodge (+10 mtf)

Dodge is capped at 40% due to MDB.

I edited this post based on feedback and further testings. The notes below are mixed from the original and updates:

The one thing I can think of adding would be a Dagger's Tooth belt for +4 maximum dex bonus (though I think this is probably a bad itemization.) Max dex becomes 40 and leaves room for MTF to raise max dodge up to 40.

Overall, this seems to leave Measure the Foe and nimbleness at a point of only raising dodge by 2%.

Next, you could be a Halfling and get a couple bonuses, but are there other ways to raise dodge on a pure rogue without being a Halfling? Better ways to plan out a good dodge score?

Notes:

Could take spring attack for +2% dodge, though I don't think its worth the feat.
Will likely drop the dodge feat and just let nimbleness and MTF have a small amount of utility.


Dodge
8 - item
2 - mobility feat / item
3 - dodge
6 - uncanny dodge
3 - unearthly reactions
1 - past life
----
23 (this is my live number)

[Saekee]

I'm wondering if robes/outfits might be the way to go?

[JOTMON]

Halfling has some dodge and MDB
Tier2 -Nimble Reaction: +1/+2/+3 Armor Maximum Dexterity Bonus and Maximum Dodge Bonus
Tier3 -Improved Dodge: +1%/+2%/+3% Dodge when wearing light or no armor.


Could also splash monk
lose
~capstone Rogue - Deadly Shadow: You gain +2 Dexterity and +2 Intelligence. You gain 10 Melee Power and +4 Sneak Attack dice. You gain +4 to Reflex Saving Throws. You gain +2 to the DC of your Assassinate.
~ -1% uncanny dodge from level 20

opens up..
~Feats
~Ocean Stance grants +2 Wisdom, +2% dodge, and +3 to all Saving Throws at a cost of -2 Strength.
~Tier 1 Ninja Spy - Acrobatic: +1/+2/+3 Balance, Jump, and Tumble. +1%/+2%/+3% Dodge.
~Tier2 (requires 2 monk) Agility: +1/+2/+3 Concentration, Reflex Saves, and Maximum Dodge bonus.

[redoubt]

I'm wondering if robes/outfits might be the way to go?

Nimbleness would still be capped by maximum dodge at 36.

MtF would stack because it raises max dodge, so you could get to 46 while MTF is active.

Note: Cartwheel charge just became staff only, so it is less attractive to spend the full 31 points in acrobat. This lines up both maximum dex bonus and maximum dodge at 34... (not halfing and no daggerstooth belt.)

[Mellkor]

I was hitting 47% dodge somehow when I experimented by going all into assassin tree and acrobat tree with MtF active on a drow.

I would think I could get this a few points better with racial and/or splash and/or twists somehow, but I havent really put any thought into it.

I don't see why 50% or maybe a few points higher than that wouldn't be too hard to achieve.

Is there a new hard cap? (excluding temporary boosts)

[redoubt]

I was hitting 47% dodge somehow when I experimented by going all into assassin tree and acrobat tree with MtF active on a drow.

I would think I could get this a few points better with racial and/or splash and/or twists somehow, but I havent really put any thought into it.

I don't see why 50% or maybe a few points higher than that wouldn't be too hard to achieve.

Is there a new hard cap? (excluding temporary boosts)

Robes or armor?

For my live build, I'm actually held back the armor's MDB. Once I build up my shadow charges I'm capped on dodge. Going into sneak and building MTF does not yield any more dodge for me because it does not raise the MDB. IF I was wearing robes instead of armor, my dodge would go up. (Or, if MTF raised Max dodge and MDB, then it would help that way as well.)

[Mellkor]

I was able to hit 47 in light armour or robes. Same AC for both.

I basically took everything I could in assassin and acrobat trees (as well as shadowdancer) that affected max dodge bonus and dodge. I had to rely on MtF and 3 (I think) shadow charges to be at max dodge all the time.

[redoubt]

I was able to hit 47 in light armour or robes. Same AC for both.

I basically took everything I could in assassin and acrobat trees (as well as shadowdancer) that affected max dodge bonus and dodge. I had to rely on MtF and 3 (I think) shadow charges to be at max dodge all the time.

Would you mind comparing what you have to the stuff I listed in the OP?

I've tested enough to know that shadow charges are held to the MDB and Maximum dodge. Also that MTF does not raise MDB. I am very interested in how you are getting into the 40s in armor.

Thanks!

[Mellkor]

I think the only thing I had different was the dodge feat and an augment that adds to to max dex bonus to armour. compared to your OP.

with that I was sitting at 37% dodge cap and something like 34% dodge without shadow charges and MtF.

It went to 47% cap and 47% dodge with MtF and 3 shadow charges. (according to my paper doll)

Once the new changes go live I will give it a better look. Maxing dodge is definently something I want to do when dex to assassinate goes live.

[Saekee]

what light armor are you recommending? Am planning to go assassin again now that they are so sexy.
If it is black dragonscale, wouldn't robes be easier on the gear/augments/enhancements etc than the light armor version? There seems little difference otherwise. But maybe you are using something different?

[redoubt]

I think the only thing I had different was the dodge feat and an augment that adds to to max dex bonus to armour. compared to your OP.

with that I was sitting at 37% dodge cap and something like 34% dodge without shadow charges and MtF.

It went to 47% cap and 47% dodge with MtF and 3 shadow charges. (according to my paper doll)

Once the new changes go live I will give it a better look. Maxing dodge is definently something I want to do when dex to assassinate goes live.

Good call on a armored agility augment. I need to add that. I'll go get one it game and check if it which things it raises and see if it stacks with mobility.

Next, I see you havea 37% dodge cap and then your cap is going up to 47% with MTF. If you look at your armor before and after building MTF stacks, what is the MDB it shows? I apologize for continuing to ask very similar things, but this is the spot where my character seems stuck and I'm hoping to figure out the piece I'm missing.

[redoubt]

what light armor are you recommending? Am planning to go assassin again now that they are so sexy.
If it is black dragonscale, wouldn't robes be easier on the gear/augments/enhancements etc than the light armor version? There seems little difference otherwise. But maybe you are using something different?

I use desecrated leathers from 12 to 22 and just continue to upgrade the defense augment in them. I like them for the high MDB.

At 23 I switch to Red Corymrian and then to light shadow scale at 26. Both have high MDB and good slot consolidation.

I did consider the traditional black dragonscale for armor piercing, but stuck with the others because of the slot consolidation. As far as robes, I'm trying to stay in light armor for the PRR bonus. Even if you only get to 50PRR that will take a third of the hits that get through.

[redoubt]

Okay, I grabbed a armored agility +2 sapphire and plugged it into my armor.

I'm not at 23% out of 30% with a MDB of 37%.

Build in shadow charges:
30% of 30% with a MDB of 37%

Build in MTF:
37% of 37% with a MDB of 37%

If I take off the armor it jumps to:
40% of 40% (MDB is NA)

This confirms to me (so far) that MTF raises maximum dex, but not MDB (as it is written in its description.)

Note: all of these tests are on a current INT assassin without the dodge bonuses in the Acrobat tree. I'm just working out how to maximize dodge (without gimping myself) for when dex to assassinate goes live.

Note: I'm also outperforming my calculated dodge numbers on the live server. I've not figured out how yet.

[redoubt]

Max Dex bonus on live w/o acrobat:

19 base
6 lithe
6 light armor mastery
2 armored agility augment
----
33 when I'm not wearing it.
+2 ship fencing master
+2 mobility item
----
37 as I'm seeing in game now. I'll go back an do some edits on the OP. I must have put in some bad math somewhere.

[Mellkor]

Here is a cut and paste from my assassin thread. post #503:

So, just for fun I dumped Harper tree and spent those points into Acrobat just to see what i could get Dodge and Dodge cap up to.

With points spent into Harper I was: 37 or 40 dodge cap depending on armour. (76 assassinate DC)

With points dumped from Harper and spent into Acrobat maxing out all the dodge stuff I was: 47 dodge cap regardless of armour worn. (72 assassinate DC).

(with MtF and 3 shadow charges)

I use Thunderforged light armour. (I think this is the difference, as it has a highest max dex bonus for any light armour, as far as I know)

When I was in Harper it mattered what a armour I wore. When in Acrobat I was getting the same numbers in either shadow armour or robes, which makes me think that maybe 47 is a new hard cap. I'd love to hear from a halfling to see if they can surpass 47%.

Also the Thunderforged leather is a lot better than robes, IMO.

[Mellkor]

OK I switched enhancement trees again to check this out.

Before: 89 AC, 30% dodge cap standing, 37% dodge cap with Measure the Foe (MtF) active and maxed. (This is with thunderforged shadow light armour with a 37 max dex bonus) (40 naked)

Switching from Harper/INT based to Acrobat/DEX based on my drow assassin and maxing out all things that add dodge cap in the assassin tree, acrobat tree, and Shadow Dancer destiny: 95 AC, 36 dodge cap standing. With MtF: 46 Dodge cap.

I am using Shadow armour that has a MDB of 46. If I take it off and wear robes or go naked, I am still at 46 Dodge cap.

I am not sure how I got 47 before. LOL. I cant figure it out.

I cant think of anything else I can do to make it better without changing races or splashing.

As equipped today my standing dodge was 6 points dodge behind the max before nimbleness and shadow charges. Between shadow charges and nimbleness, Standing dodge will almost always be maxed out. I could maybe improve my standing dodge to be always at cap without shadow charges by twisting in some things, but probably not required, as I can be maxed all the time fairly easily. I might have to improve standing dodge IF I can get max dodge to break say, 50% somehow.

[redoubt]

I am using Shadow armour that has a MDB of 46. If I take it off and wear robes or go naked, I am still at 46 Dodge cap.

Are the Acrobat Cores increasing Maximum Dodge AND Maximum Dex Bonus? That would account for the extra 6% on your MDB compared to what I'm thinking it is supposed to be.

[Ayseifn]

I use Thunderforged light armour. (I think this is the difference, as it has a highest max dex bonus for any light armour, as far as I know)

Totally garbage item but might be useful for testing stuff since it doesn't have nimbleness or mobility.

[Mellkor]

Are the Acrobat Cores increasing Maximum Dodge AND Maximum Dex Bonus? That would account for the extra 6% on your MDB compared to what I'm thinking it is supposed to be.

Yes. Thats what makes them so great!

[Mellkor]

I think I got rid of my epic silken mail a long time ago...lol

Would be nice to test, as you say.