State of Monks

[SealedInSong]

Wind: Adds monk level to displacement for 1 min, AoE, Ally-only

I didn't bother coming up with Void finishers... there's currently only one Void attack...
I too miss the days where we had four different Void attacks available.

Questions:
what does monk level do to displacement? is it 1 min/monk level? Because that would sound very overpowered.

Or do you mean, 1 monk level/% concealment, so a pure monk would have 20% concealment, which is = blur?

Re: void attacks, there's just void strike now. What were the other four previously?

[Munkenmo]

Re: void attacks, there's just void strike now. What were the other four previously?

Before the enhancment pass there used to be void strike 1-4

void 1 : 1d4 force damage
void 2 : 2d4 force damage & daze on vorpal
void 3 : 4d4 force damage & paralyze on vorpal
void 4 : 8d4 force damage & erase enemies on vorpal (was an insta kill that bypassed deathblock & worked on undead)

Void 4 was particularly fun vs training dummies

[ThreadNecromancer]

Or do you mean, 1 monk level/% concealment, so a pure monk would have 20% concealment, which is = blur?

Re: void attacks, there's just void strike now. What were the other four previously?

Pure monks would get 20% concealment, yes. It stacks with Shadow Fade and other incorporeal miss chances, but not concealment.

Also, what Munkenmo said.

[hunzi2010]

I must say, my monk itake in on EE and he can survive if he takes on 1 or 2 mobs, but more than that its all over.
since the nerf is only attack is to stunning fist. if that doesn't land well all over.
as he is pure hand wrap monk with light armor, he has rubbish mrr and prr. dodge, evasion and ac are really useless on him.
I mean lets go back to un nerfing the monk and then you wont have to do much.
again all I see on the forums once a class is fixed, is nerf it by other classes.
then the quest is too hard so that gets nerfed.
its a rotating thing.
if you leave all the classes where they were, re instate blitz re instate holy sword, leave barb where it is ect ect then you can run the new content that turbine releases without saying it needs to be nerfed also.
man I feel like a record player....lol
but yes monk needs to be fixed....

[Daine]

I sent my monk to the dojo to meditate on why being the best monk he can be isn't good enough, all I hear back is the sad sound of one hand clapping

[Robbenklopper]

Ask yourself, what does armor at all? It doesn´t make you avoid to get hit, it just reduces the damage when you get hit. While the potential of the mob is reflected by it´s Chance to hit, there is no reflection of your potential / abilities to avoid (dodge) it. I don´t take concealment/ghostly in this talk. It´s about "hit" and about "damage"

That saying for heavy armor-wearers with ~7% dodge, they get HIT (close to) all the time, but they only suffer damage if the AC is passed and then PRR is applied to reflect how much damage passes through. Good concept.
But remember: getting hit (about) all the time. The "harder" the armor (light/med/heavy), the lesser the damage by PRR.

The "lighter" the armor, the higher your mobility and possibly the Chance to avoid getting hit. This scheme should especially apply to light/no armor wearers. When i can avoid e.g. 50% damage with a 100 PRR, something like dodge should make it possible (for a Monk) to avoid 50% hits with a 50% dodge. If PRR could be lifted up for about 200 to avoid 66% of all damage, there should be an Option to lift up your dodge to 66% to avoid of all hits. This is, so far, not the case. I´m capped with dodge at about 33%.

So i can accept to get low hit (high dodge) at higher dealt damage (low PRR) to my Monk in thin pyjamas. I can accept to get med hit at med dealt damage to my barb in med armor, and i can accept to get high hit at low dealt damage to my heavy armor Fighter. Only for a sword&board fighter in heavy armor there has to be something else coz you receive "hits" on the shield that don´t deal damage to your Body.


So will there be a "Dodge Up" ?

[Lil'man]

TBH right now monk seems to only be viable when splashed with other classes, I TR'd my pure level 20 ninja spy because he just swatted at things and hit as hard as a wet noodle, he doesn't have the DR/ bypass that hand wraps have but hand wraps are so broken right now that you need a pally, fighter, or druid splash to make them viable.

[Kodwraith]

The basic deal with finishers was always that a monk was needing to a) know al of them to be effective b) keep all of them upp to be effective. I still like that idea because it makes monks the most complicated melee to play by a longshot. You can't just hit rage and cleave and be done.

I really like ThreadNecro's idea of finishers scaling directly with monk levels (could also scale based on stance "levels" to allow more deep splash feat-for-monkness tradeoff builds).
I like the Light-is-helpful, dark is more powerful but selfish.

[Shall]

I'm not too knowledgeable about game mechanics, but would it make sense and be possible with the game's code to add a chance based on dodge rating so that even on a failed dodge you might still be able to treat a hit as a glancing blow for damage reduced by some degree, no critical multiplier (even with a champion's full fort bypass), and a chance to not proc added weapon effects?

I wouldn't know what values would be effective for the variables in case the games default treatment of glancing blows would be unbalanced compared to the static defense PRR and MRR provides and it admittedly would be similar to defensive roll, but it would add another layer of defense and seems like it would fit thematically - you may not have been able to fully dodge an attack but still had the reflexes to avoid the brunt of it. Again, I'm not experienced with how the game design goes, but it's an idea that I don't think I've seen posted before.

[SealedInSong]

The basic deal with finishers was always that a monk was needing to a) know al of them to be effective b) keep all of them upp to be effective. I still like that idea because it makes monks the most complicated melee to play by a longshot. You can't just hit rage and cleave and be done.

I really like ThreadNecro's idea of finishers scaling directly with monk levels (could also scale based on stance "levels" to allow more deep splash feat-for-monkness tradeoff builds).
I like the Light-is-helpful, dark is more powerful but selfish.

I'd love to see monk finishers increased in power (i.e. higher multipliers, higher DCs, higher base damage for things like breath of the fire dragon) that scale with monk level, but with shorter durations or higher ki cost as they scale.

For instance, Syn does a great job of illustrating underutilized monk finishers, but he mostly uses them in solo play, and they're generally not used in epic because of lack of scaling.

[ThreadNecromancer]

Ok... here's my (refined) idea for finishers. Round fractions up, all typed as Enlightenment bonuses.

The basic triple element combos:
Earth: Adds 1/3 monk level to AC for 1 min, AoE, Ally-only
Wind: Adds 1/3 monk level to dodge chance for 1 min, AoE, Ally-only
Fire: Adds 1/3 monk level to damage for 1 min, AoE, Ally-only
Water: Adds 1/3 monk level to saves for 1 min, AoE, Ally-only

Light monk (Shintao) finishers:
Earth: Adds monk level to PRR for 1 min, AoE, Ally-only
Wind: Adds monk level to displacement for 1 min, AoE, Ally-only
Fire: Adds monk level to healing amplification for 1 min, AoE, Ally-only
Water: Adds monk level to elemental resistances for 1 min, AoE, Ally-only
Light: Heals 1d6 hp/monk level, AoE, Ally-only (affected by Positive SP)

Also add something in the tree that buffs Fists of Light itself... like damage scaling with monk level against undead. Or combining the effects of Smite Tainted Creature with Fists of Light.

Dark monk (Ninja) finishers:
Earth: Adds monk level to fortification bypass % for 1 min, Self-only
Wind: Adds monk level to attack speed for 1 min, Self-only
Fire: Adds monk level to Melee Power for 1 min, Self-only
Water: Adds monk level to tactics DC for 1 min, Self-only
Dark: Deals 1d6 negative energy damage/monk level, AoE, Enemy-only (Affected by Negative SP)

Ninjas get Touch of Death... not much help required. Just remove the save for half damage and it'd get used more.
I literally just ETR'd my monk to the Dark side, and after twenty slayer kills... swapped the feat for Fists of Light. The finishers as they are on live right now are horrid for Ninjas.

I like the idea of Henshin being the "Mystical/Caster" Monk.

Earth: 1d6 acid damage/monk level, AoE, Enemy-only
Wind: 1d6 electric damage/monk level, AoE, Enemy-only
Fire: 1d6 fire damage/monk level, AoE, Enemy-only
Water: 1d6 cold damage/monk level, AoE, Enemy-only
Void: 1d6 force damage/monk level, AoE, Enemy-only

Also... make Void Strike a third option to take as a Philosophical path, and make the Henshin tree buff it the way Ninja and Shintao buff Dark/Light. Make the feat by itself like the original Void Strike 1, Tier 2 enhancement upgrades it to II with the daze effect, Tier 4 adds the paralyze, and Tier 5 adds the vorpal exile. Might need to expand the spellpower options for Henshin tho, considering they only get Fire/Force right now and this would give them all 4 elements.
Edit: Have the stance the Henshin is in buff the spellpower of the associated element.


Each Monk tree should have multiselectors that buff stances chosen in a way that follows that path's philosophy also. As it stands right now... Earth stance is the only useful one. It's the only one that gets buffed by enhancements and Grandmaster of Flowers... as opposed to just Grandmaster.

Coding handwraps as weapons is a big step in the right direction... kudos. Just make sure it's done right.

Honestly... if the finishers were made more useful and wraps were weapons... I'd be very happy playing monks for a long time.

[Munkenmo]

Fire: Adds monk level to confirm criticals & critical damage for 1 min, Self-only

Really really weak for unarmed monks. Make it add +monk level to melee power for 1min instead.

[depositbox]

Just give us QP back. Seriously, devs. Allow monks to specalize in QP again.

y u no do dis, turbine?

[Therrias]

Yes, monks are bad. Like really terrible from an optimization standpoint.

This is what I would to make them viable without violating what they are supposed to do thematically:

Problem: Squishyness

Solution:
1. Give monks +1 dodge cap per monk level.
2. Give monks +1 AC per monk level. (a boatload of AC hardly makes a difference nowadays, might as well give them 2x bonus from Dex and Wis as well.)
3. Give monks some kind of PRR/MRR. Even just 1x Con bonus would help.


Problem : Anemic damage

Solution:
1. +1 melee damage and/or +1 melee power per monk level
2. Stop telling us that handwraps aren't weapons. They are weapons. Fix every enhancement and ability that does not work with handwraps.
3. Unnerf QP. It takes a silly amount of specialization to get it to that really effective level.


Problem : Bad enhancements

1. Merge Henshin and Shintao trees. Keep the good abilities and drop all the fluff. Sticks are for rogues.
2. Revamp Ninja tree. Make ToD worthwhile and drop the prereqs. Fill in the empty T5 slots with useful stuff.
3. Move Kensai tree to Monk. Slight revamp to make it fit in.

These are the types of changes that I would need to see to even CONSIDER playing a pure melee monk ever again. Seriously, my barbarian is better than the status quo monk in every way without even trying.

[ThreadNecromancer]

Really really weak for unarmed monks. Make it add +monk level to melee power for 1min instead.

I like it.

[ThreadNecromancer]

Just give us QP back. Seriously, devs. Allow monks to specalize in QP again.

y u no do dis, turbine?

Solution:
1. Give monks +1 dodge cap per monk level.

3. Give monks some kind of PRR/MRR without forcing them into Earth stance to get it. Even just 1x Con bonus would help.


Problem : Anemic damage

Solution:
1. +1 melee damage and/or +1 melee power per monk level
2. Stop telling us that handwraps aren't weapons. They are weapons. Fix every enhancement and ability that does not work with handwraps. They are planning this, FYI. Forgive my Search-Fu at 7AM, however. But I know it was Sev that posted it.
3. Unnerf QP. It takes a silly amount of specialization to get it to that really effective level.


Problem : Bad enhancements

1. Merge Henshin and Shintao trees. Keep the good abilities and drop all the fluff. Sticks are for rogues. I lol'd because it reminded me of a bumper sticker that said Jeeps are for Chicks.
2. Revamp Ninja tree. Make ToD worthwhile and drop the prereqs. Fill in the empty T5 slots with useful stuff.
3. Move Kensai tree to Monk. Slight revamp to make it fit in. Not a bad idea. It'd give monks that Samurai feeling sometimes.

These are the types of changes that I would need to see to even CONSIDER playing a pure melee monk ever again. Seriously, my barbarian is better than the status quo monk in every way without even trying.

And I agree on QP. Revert it back to what it was.

[ThreadNecromancer]

When we do the Monk pass we want to change handwraps to be weapons rather than the pseudo-weapon-but-not-really version in the code right now. Assuming they scaled with monk levels the same way unarmed attacks do now this would fix most of the incompatibility. The problems to doing this are that it will take a lot of time so we need enough clear space to do it, there is high risk to existing unarmed abilities that are coded to deal with the way handwraps work now, and finally I think that players would be required to bring existing handwraps to the stone of change to get newer versions. That last bit is not something we would be trivially.

Once that is done we can rebalance damage and have confidence they will work with more enhancements.

Sev~


And for completeness's sake, the thread itself:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ed#post5584982

[Zachski]

I heavily oppose the merging of Shintao and Henshin. Two completely different playstyles and I would rather see Henshin receive a buff to their ki abilities to make them worth using, even early on.

Also, if you think sticks are only for rogues... you haven't seen enough martial arts movies :P or anime, for that matter.

[hunzi2010]

Just give us QP back. Seriously, devs. Allow monks to specalize in QP again.

y u no do dis, turbine?

+1 totally agree.
I play a pure handwrap light monk. he is in the closet at the moment cos you cant play him on EE.
no im not gimp. im saying you cant play him on EE with the current nerfs.

The only attack worth it is stunning fist now. if that fails you get hit. and hit hard....
the new update makes dodge ghostly reflex and all that useless. unless you have massive PRR/MRR your gonna get smashed.

Like people said above me, handwraps are weapons fix them please.
bring back QP it was one of the only other attacks that works well. (hey if I can get my finger of death on my wiz to work on EE mobs why cant QP work too. hum hum?????)

at the moment the only use for monk, like a lot of people said is splashing into other builds. so come on devs, lets revamp the monk and ninja some mobs
Kung Fu Panda Style

thanks.

[Amideus]

So current issues related to Monks as I trolled through this thread again today, coupled with several theory-crafting bits on my new life.

1. MAD, MAD, MAD Monks are so MAD bro. We need STR for our to-hit and damage, DEX and WIS for our abilities and defenses, and CON so we don't die like ragdolls. It's not like we are Paladins that can dump everything into STR and COn and basically ignore WIS and CHA and get the benefit from tomes/gear. Our DC's are horrible for our skills and require insanely high WIS to be useful, and our crit profiles for unarmed is atrocious requiring high STR for increased damage.

2. 90% of the good enhancements for multiclassing, and ED's for melee just don't work with monks, and our own ED GMoF is just terrible by comparison to LD. We either need better support for GMoF to be a viable option for unarmed monks, or we'll have to wait out handwraps being fixed (which to be honest, it's like we have been asking for this for several years now, even if it has been confirmed it's too little to late in my book to matter much. We could be looking at "it's on the list" and not see any returns for a few years.)

3. Outdated enhancement trees and class abilities. Monks were a very fun and interesting class with reliable choices and a diverse range of builds back before epic levels, when fist attacks for 2d20 were actually something, and both paths provided some kind of endgame benefit. Even the stances were used in a rough balance, with WIND being a solid dps choice, fire for fringe STR builds, and EARTH for those beefy tanks. Now we have subpar enhancement lines that give us exclusions with other multiclassing, weak capstones, broken abilities that do not function properly (looking at you Every Light Casts a Shadow) and inconsistent power spikes that cause us to be front loaded with potential in the early levels and grind to a halt in the endgame builds.\

4. Heavy reliance on a single aspect of our class abilities. This goes back to number 3, but it's EARTH stance or bust right now, and even EARTH stance gives us pitiful defensive options for a melee compared to the other tankier classes. You can say all you want that monks shouldn't get PRR/MRR because they are wearing robes, but that DOESN'T fix the game mechanics that punish us severally for not having better defensive stats. **** be it to what makes sense, if the game mechanics don't add it up doesn't really matter. Gameplay > Flavor hands-down. To top it off, if we were to get something that would make us less likely to die by avoiding damage, we shouldn't get tacked on with increased threat gen in our only real stance.

5. Lack of focus for our role. What are monks? Melee damage dealers, hybrid melee casters with spell-like abilities, or tanky clothies with a penchant for punching? We're all of these things... in parts. The class is broken and without real direction, and needs to be reunified to make some more sense and give the trees each an interesting appeal. Ninja-spy could use some tweaking for the role, and potentially give some interesting bonuses to encourage multi-classing rogue/arti. Henshin needs to be retooled to make spell-like abilities more viable and scale better with gear and the ED's, and Shintao seriously needs to look a lot more like the paladin enhancements in relative potential. All of these broken pieces by themselves are nice, but you can't put the puzzle of a monk together with only partial pieces.

6. Scaling. We are pretty much the only melee that didn't get a new-age scaling with epic content. Barbs and paladins both got major rehashes to their designs that added increased damage and utility to their builds and included clauses for melee power. Fighters got a shiny new enhancement tree that also gets some very nice bonuses from the new style of combat. Monks really need something that gives them scaling with melee power and allows the class to get that little boost to compete with the other melees.

7. Anything else I didn't reference just because Chuck Norris.