State of Monks

[Amideus]

Is it just me or are Monks in a really weird place right now? I mean compared to the recent changes for the others classes like paladin and barbarian, and Vanguard plus the release of swashbuckler PrE. Monks used to be useful because they could have moderate defenses through stances, evasion, higher than average attack speed, and solid utility from things like Stunning fist.

Now we have all these classes that are defensive oriented and have defensive stances getting large bonuses to PRR/MRR, while Monks are getting kind of shafted on their defensive forms and their damage keeps becoming less and less appealing. Let me outline some of the concerns I have about other melee classes (I will avoid casters/ranged because those are in a league of their own and this is mainly about the melee builds at the core of many class mechanics for monks.)

1. Mountain stance and Shintao enhancements. Mountain stance is the Monk's version of defender from the tank classes, granting defenses and damage for unarmed combined with threat generation. I realize that Monks aren't meant to be pure tanks like paladins or fighters, but look at the options for Shintao compared with the fighter/paladin enhancement lines. Paladin gets huge damage boosts, melee power scaling, large bonuses to the new MRR system. Monks get PRR and some AC, which hasn't been useful since the AC redesign several patches ago. The Monks major defense was in their ability to mimic armor bonuses without wearing it by gaining extra AC. Now with MRR and PRR being the bigger portions of armor that matters, why is there zero MRR that a monk can get from any of their tank option bonuses. None. Hell, I have a level 8 paladin/fighter that has almost 100 PRR/MRR now, and my level 23 Monk only gets to 90 using blitz and an action boost. I can understand keeping monks in a moderate defensive place, where they are squishier than pure tank classes, but have more damage options. But the gap keeps growing, and my monk feels more like a glass statue sometimes than a rugged martial artist.

2. Stat bonuses and build paths I worked into a nice multi-classed Monk tank prior to the major redesign of the many game mechanics that culminated through u14-u19. It was a solid build with good tanking options and nice damage from the dark monk path. When the enhancements were redesigned the build died, as most of the core enhancements became mutually exclusive of each other. So I went shintao, to re-emulate the old tank. I worked on a new tank monk, then a wisdom based utility monk(by far my favorite and the exemplification of an unarmed monk imo) and each time a major change would completely destroy the build. It seemed like not only were monks fragile in game defenses, their builds could not take hits well either. Without a wisdom based race in the game right now, going for a stunning fist/Q-Palm monk is very difficult in the higher EE content, meaning that you become more dependent on raw damage and defenses. Monks require too many stat bonuses though for their core mechanics, they have no melee power scaling, and their utility from monk features are weaker in higher tiers of content.

3. Unarmed, unarmed.... unarmed... So this is kind of a personal issue, but really after this many years I should be allowed to complain. Handwraps suck. They break nearly every patch, they are constantly being outscaled by new raid crafted weapons, and they get almost NO benefit from the more solid melee ED's and bonus damage. Just as a comparison, an unarmed monk might get 9[1d8] or 10[1d8], 19-20 x4 crits and some bonuses from their handwraps and if they are using them ToD rings. A martial melee class might only deal 8[1d6] with a one hander, but their can have 15-20x5 crits, bonuses from their weapons, several different stacking Xd6 and Xd8 bonuses from their class enhancements, and melee power scaling. Even the basic Monk enhancements are broken with themselves, such that Violence Begets Violence does not grant 2 threat range per stack when using improved crit bludgeon, while a swashbuckler gets double their crit threat bonuses for Exploit weakness.

This is meant as a discussion, not as a world is falling. I just fell like the recent changes keep growing a large gap between melee monks and other melee classes. I am just wondering if others are seeing this trend as well, and what their insights might be whether melee monks are fine, better than fine, or lacking.

[Kodwraith]

Well said. I love monks, they brought me to this game and they're basically why I stay.

There a more subtle fail going on in addition to power creep aka nerf by proxy.

Originally monks could really excel using key combos. It was a class that really only pulled ahead if you knew what you were doing ability wise in a fight. I knew all the light and most of the dark finishers cold, I kept +25% SP reduction up all the time, everyone was AoE healed whenever that was up etc. I still walk into a dungeon and Align the Heavens so everyone gets 25% off the buff stage.

The key combinations are basically now just a giant waste of time. Worse, the really interesting void strike light/dark/void ones now require using a stick. So you stand still trying to hit things with fists with TINY little melee range. Meanwhile the Remington Roomsweeper Barb has already killed everything.

It would be really nice if devs brought back the combo aspect of the class in some meaningful form, maybe even making combos purchasable with AP.

On the upside, we get free feats unlike, say fighter. Oh wait...

Monks are still a blast to play. But GMoF is simply not worth staying past 12 and the capstone in shintao is literally laughable.

[Robbenklopper]

Is it just me or are Monks in a really weird place right now? I mean compared to the recent changes for the others classes like paladin and barbarian, and Vanguard plus the release of swashbuckler PrE. Monks used to be useful because they could have moderate defenses through stances, evasion, higher than average attack speed, and solid utility from things like Stunning fist.

Now we have all these classes that are defensive oriented and have defensive stances getting large bonuses to PRR/MRR, while Monks are getting kind of shafted on their defensive forms and their damage keeps becoming less and less appealing. Let me outline some of the concerns I have about other melee classes (I will avoid casters/ranged because those are in a league of their own and this is mainly about the melee builds at the core of many class mechanics for monks.)

1. Mountain stance and Shintao enhancements. Mountain stance is the Monk's version of defender from the tank classes, granting defenses and damage for unarmed combined with threat generation. I realize that Monks aren't meant to be pure tanks like paladins or fighters, but look at the options for Shintao compared with the fighter/paladin enhancement lines. Paladin gets huge damage boosts, melee power scaling, large bonuses to the new MRR system. Monks get PRR and some AC, which hasn't been useful since the AC redesign several patches ago. The Monks major defense was in their ability to mimic armor bonuses without wearing it by gaining extra AC. Now with MRR and PRR being the bigger portions of armor that matters, why is there zero MRR that a monk can get from any of their tank option bonuses. None. Hell, I have a level 8 paladin/fighter that has almost 100 PRR/MRR now, and my level 23 Monk only gets to 90 using blitz and an action boost. I can understand keeping monks in a moderate defensive place, where they are squishier than pure tank classes, but have more damage options. But the gap keeps growing, and my monk feels more like a glass statue sometimes than a rugged martial artist.

2. Stat bonuses and build paths I worked into a nice multi-classed Monk tank prior to the major redesign of the many game mechanics that culminated through u14-u19. It was a solid build with good tanking options and nice damage from the dark monk path. When the enhancements were redesigned the build died, as most of the core enhancements became mutually exclusive of each other. So I went shintao, to re-emulate the old tank. I worked on a new tank monk, then a wisdom based utility monk(by far my favorite and the exemplification of an unarmed monk imo) and each time a major change would completely destroy the build. It seemed like not only were monks fragile in game defenses, their builds could not take hits well either. Without a wisdom based race in the game right now, going for a stunning fist/Q-Palm monk is very difficult in the higher EE content, meaning that you become more dependent on raw damage and defenses. Monks require too many stat bonuses though for their core mechanics, they have no melee power scaling, and their utility from monk features are weaker in higher tiers of content.

3. Unarmed, unarmed.... unarmed... So this is kind of a personal issue, but really after this many years I should be allowed to complain. Handwraps suck. They break nearly every patch, they are constantly being outscaled by new raid crafted weapons, and they get almost NO benefit from the more solid melee ED's and bonus damage. Just as a comparison, an unarmed monk might get 9[1d8] or 10[1d8], 19-20 x4 crits and some bonuses from their handwraps and if they are using them ToD rings. A martial melee class might only deal 8[1d6] with a one hander, but their can have 15-20x5 crits, bonuses from their weapons, several different stacking Xd6 and Xd8 bonuses from their class enhancements, and melee power scaling. Even the basic Monk enhancements are broken with themselves, such that Violence Begets Violence does not grant 2 threat range per stack when using improved crit bludgeon, while a swashbuckler gets double their crit threat bonuses for Exploit weakness.

This is meant as a discussion, not as a world is falling. I just fell like the recent changes keep growing a large gap between melee monks and other melee classes. I am just wondering if others are seeing this trend as well, and what their insights might be whether melee monks are fine, better than fine, or lacking.

Hello Amideus,

you´re listing a lot things that hit the Point what i agree on. What i think is, that comparing the classes is for orientation, but questionable. Monk itself is ok, but surely would Need some improvements. But at what cost? My question would be "empower Monk" or "depower the others". Only writing quickly a few things, coz to sum up everything, i lack of time.

1. Not totally unlogic, that pyjama-Monk is not a tank. Whom do you put in first line, tanky metalshield fullplate george or bruce lee? Maybe bruce for the kills, but not to be the bulwark. Nevertheless, Monk Needs to be durable. And he is mostly ok, lvl24 ac130 prr135 blitzing possible. But not in intended Destiny!

2. Prr is really an issue, and i understand and accept he´s not made from iron. Taking hits for would Need more mitigation or avoidance. IF Q-Palm qouldn´t have been sucked up, running in intended GMoF WIS-Based would make sense and improve the Monk Feeling. With all the buffs to other melees, do we see the de-nerf of Q-Palm soon like it was? Just this Little Thing could Change a LOT imo.

3. The Crits are really underearthly, but i looked up corebook and: it is like it is. That would be ok, if some other Thing depending for unarmed would have also been taken over.

Not going into henshin, finishers etc today, but: Monk is not really weak, but the other classes are made stronger, more oriented on what EE These days is.

[Amideus]

It's very true monks are not weak, my major concerns are the growing power gap in the other melee. It's like playing a game where you have 4 classes, 3 of the classes are strong and clear the game reasonably well and offer strengths and weaknesses. One class is the BFG of the game and decimates most things with greater ease than the others. At a certain point it becomes "why bother trying to play something else" I am not saying monks are that bad, just don't want them to get there.

And yes, monks are not meant to be frontline tanks(which is sad, because this game could use some interesting frontliners) but MRR should really be addressed somewhere in the monk kit. I mean, it's a spiritual/mystical martial warrior that doesn't get any MRR because he isn't wearing a suit of armor???...

I do like the idea of bringing the power back into the existing mechanics by making the monk finishers more meaningful/diverse and offering some boosts to the Grandmaster elemental strikes. I mean look at light monks. You get 4 buffs that last only for 1 minute. Three of those buffs are provided by other classes for much longer durations and don't stack, and the grasp of the dragon has limited uses, but is still a very nice options to have.

Personally, I like some of these ideas to bringing up the monks potential:

1. Give Stunning/Sundering half bonus to QP. Quivering Palm seems to be shy on the DC for a lot of things, but possibly was too consistent back when you could get a +10 additional bonus from sundering to it. From the feel of things, the nerf was too much but rebuffing it would be a terrible idea. I think giving QP half of the benefit for sundering or stunning items would bring it back into the viable builds category.

2. Redo the monk finishing moves. Grasp of the Earth Dragon feels nice and works well as it is, but the other finishers are lacking. Even the dark finishers have terrible DC's and really do not see any use. Something like this might feel more at home in the new era of melee power and PRR/MRR:
Walk of the Sun: Fire/Light/Fire - Grants +10 melee/ranged power to you and nearby allies for 15 seconds.
Dance of the Clouds: Air/Light/Air - Grants you and nearby allies +15 PRR/MRR and 10% increased movement speed for 30 seconds.
Aligning the Heavens: Water/Light/Water - Grants you and nearby allies +20 spellpower for 15 seconds and 25% reduced spell point costs.

This is just a rough idea, but essentially bring in shorter buffs that have a higher impact for the monk and his party to promote proper timing. A revamp of the existing stances would also be in order, but not nearly as much changes would be needed.

3. Adjust the power of Monk spell-like abilities and elemental attacks. Give melee power scaling to elemental strikes or use them to compensate for the abysmal crit situation of handwraps. Grant better DC support and scaling to the Henshin tree for their spell-like abilities. And for GODS SAKE fix the dark monk path and enhancements. Every light casts a shadow has been bugged from day 1, the strong dark path is all end tier portions of the shortsword monk tree, and the finishing moves are garbage. A little changes to all of these means monks can go dark to support their damage discrepancies and leaves their flavor intact.

Overall the idea isn't to make Monks like every other class, it's to make them within a meaningful relevancy of other classes by comparison.

[Kodwraith]

Seems like we're outlining issues in 3 basic areas:

Defense: Evasion+ dodge + AC is no longer a good defense in EE so everyone has gone HA and PRR/MRR.
Offense: Melee power is completely lacking from the trees. Unarmed crit profile is sucktastic even if you optimize for it. Staff usage requires rogue 2.
Utility: Everything is broken with HWs. Combos are no longer really relevant. Shintao Capstone is useless. Really was QP that overpowered? Only Earth Stance is useful at cap.

What about something as simple as "Monks add WIS mod to PRR/MRR (and still AC) according to the following table."

You could also phase it in ala the DivineGrace proposed pseudo-nerf. Most other things could be fixed with an enhancement pass (except hws).

One thing that was always true about monks was the STR/WIS tradeoff was always, well, a tradeoff. You could optimize for "defense and stun DCs" or dmg output but not both. FWIW, I think WIS to hit dmg would be bad precisely because it breaks this tradeoff.

[Amideus]

I think it would be as simple as rolling monk MRR/PRR into the unarmored defense class feature at a similar rating to light armor. Unarmored defense was always meant to bring monks into the same tier of defenses as someone in light armor, and it only makes sense to make that equivalency. It would also be nice to see the defense bonuses on Mountain Stance and related enhancements become a little less PRR, and add some MRR. Both tank classes stances gained MRR in the changes, but the monks stances and enhancements were not changed.

So I really think that as a melee, their current defenses just need to be reoptimized for the new stats and abilities other classes and mechanics gained. That is just something really baseline and needed to be honest. As for damage, that's just retooling and moving the class forward in new directions. Monks gain almost the least amount of benefit from the ED changes, being left out of over half of the martial destiny, anything crit related(a majority of new items and content), and since working on wisdom based DC bonuses is suboptimal with the changes to QP DC, and the lack of good wisdom options for a monk, you really only have one build type, the monkcher. Unarmed works, but the limitations restrict so much, and put forth very little to make for an open and fun build.

One other huge thing to note is the bonuses MRR gives to heavy armor uses. The values are doubled when you save against reflex for spells and traps. So evasion, much less of a powerful benefit of a monk since a tank is no longer even worried that they don't have it. They can just soak the damage.

[MrWindupBird]

Good posts.

I'm on my umpteenth monk life, after cycling through a lot of other things, and man is it frustrating.

[Robbenklopper]

2. Redo the monk finishing moves. Grasp of the Earth Dragon feels nice and works well as it is, but the other finishers are lacking. Even the dark finishers have terrible DC's and really do not see any use. Something like this might feel more at home in the new era of melee power and PRR/MRR:
Walk of the Sun: Fire/Light/Fire - Grants +10 melee/ranged power to you and nearby allies for 15 seconds.
Dance of the Clouds: Air/Light/Air - Grants you and nearby allies +15 PRR/MRR and 10% increased movement speed for 30 seconds.
Aligning the Heavens: Water/Light/Water - Grants you and nearby allies +20 spellpower for 15 seconds and 25% reduced spell point costs.

Finishers really do Need an overwork, coz at the Moment, even though Path of Harmonious Balance, coz what´s in for a light (unarmed shintao capped) Monk?

Common Monk: ---> 2 bad : 1 good: 2 with Option to be ok

3xEarth: The attack has +2 critical multiplier, and the victim is unable to cast spells for 30 seconds.
Seems moderate, but to be honest, i never really really felt or feel the +2 critical multiplyer. A weapon user would feel it.

3xAir: The target's ability to "land attacks" is reduced for 30 seconds. -2 on attack rolls
Wow ...

3xWater: The enemy's attacks are slowed for 30 seconds.
Wow ...

3xFire: A cone of searing flame shoots forth, damaging targets in the area of the flames for 1d6 damage per Monk level.
Lower Moderate: With a FSP of about 400 it is ok AOE for Monk, but surely not comparable to casters. The Thing is, that it slows you when you Trigger it (takes too much time). While this, i can land 3 hits punching.

Earth - Air - Fire: You use the combined power of Earth, Wind, and Fire to set up harmonic vibrations within your enemy that force them to dance. A successful Will save negates this effect. (DC 10 + Monk Level + Charisma mod)
I have this for Combo and it´s usefull, and being DARK Monk, chosing and spending AP in Henshin "Mystic Training" is usefull for any other finisher when being Dark instead of Light. Thing is CHA-Based DC, but works.

Light Monk: ---> 4 bad : 1 good
Eart/Light/Earth: Nearby allies become immune to daze, stun, and sleep for 60 seconds
Wow ....

Air - Light - Air: Nearby allies gain 20% concealment for 60 seconds.
Wow ...I have permablur and ghostly:

Water - Light - Water: Nearby allies gain a 25% reduction in spell point costs for 60 seconds
Anyone out there without >3000 SP?

Fire - Light - Fire: Nearby allies gain a +2 untyped bonus to attack, saves, and skills for 60 seconds.
Wow.

Light - Light - Light: You heal all nearby allies for 1d4 plus 1d4 per two monk levels.
Yes, that´s the only reason to go light, but even here: There is no 2nd light move to Speed it up when you Need it. It´s not usefull IN fights, coz the time you prepare the finisher (even spread in with whirlwinds) i call no-dps-time. It´s a Little bit Don Quijote.
It´s rarely useful when there´s a pack of Mobs, you Need to immobilize / take out fast and avoid damage. Healing finisher with lower dps is a trap vs. EE Mobs (imo)

Dark Monk : ---> 3 good : 2 ok : Zero bad
Has no heals, what you can miss, but it´s the only way to go in EE.

Earth - Dark - Earth: Target is nauseated for 60 seconds. A target afflicted with Pain Touch moves at half speed, cannot attack, and cannot cast.
One more out of the fight

Air - Dark - Air: Target is blinded for 60 seconds
One more out of the fight and easier DPS

Water - Dark - Water: Target is paralyzed and helpless for 60 seconds
One more out of the fight, more DPS

Fire - Dark - Fire: This attack is guaranteed to produce critical threat if it hits.
What more to say? But crit threat on a Monk ...

Dark - Dark - Dark: You strike your opponent down with a terrible curse, halving all positive energy healing done to the target, reducing its fortification and increasing its negative energy vulnerability by 25%

Light Monk is in the backyard with his finishers, the common finishers are not up to date, dark Monk nothing to complain and the Investment of 6AP for +3 DC to the finishers is worth.

[Ikeas]

(...)

Light Monk is in the backyard with his finishers, the common finishers are not up to date, dark Monk nothing to complain and the Investment of 6AP for +3 DC to the finishers is worth.

Maybe... but finisher DC is still too low to be viable on epic. Being almost all Fortitude saves, we would need to have that DC on the 70s at least, and right now you can feel lucky if your Finisher DC reaches the 60s (and with a massive investment on WIS sources).

Not only the Finishers effects, but the ability to land them on all content, needs a deep look.

[Lil'man]

In addition to the finishers, I think QP and ToD needs to be revamped too:

QP becomes useless in EE even if you dump your stats into wisdom, its DC is just too meh to really make it a reliable attack.

ToD is fine in heroics, but in EE it becomes obsolete, a L28 Legendary Dreadnought Monk can sneeze 500 damage, or just AA once...

Also, does anybody else think that finishers take too long to wind up? I mean seriously, by the time I try and wind up a Freezing the Lifeblood finisher, the fight is already almost over, or the enemy is at low health and its just a waste which is a serious turn-off and I never use them. Hell I'd bet that 90% of monks out there rarely even use finishers on a regular basis, I know i don't.

[ThreadNecromancer]

I noticed a dev post on another thread that stated hand wraps were going to be recoded into weapons, but it'd take time.

Anyway, I noticed that the Jitz Tetka bonus for Earth stance says an extra die step. Inventory sheet shows .5(W) increase. Does not stack with Reinforced Fists on any equipment.

IMHO the three buffs to Earth stance in the Shintao tree ought to be a multiselector that let's you choose a stance to buff, and buffs it accordingly.
E.G.:
Fire stance gets damage bonus/heal amp bonus/crit range/multiplier bonus
Wind stance gets blur/double strike/vorpal knockdown
Earth stance gets AC/PRR/damage reduction
Water stance gets saves/dodge/tactics DCs

Also... the finishers. I got ideas I'll post later.

[FestusHood]

ToD is fine in heroics, but in EE it becomes obsolete, a L28 Legendary Dreadnought Monk can sneeze 500 damage, or just AA once...

It's been a while, but my friend was able to boost the damage of touch of death with negative spell power. Is this no longer the case?

[Lil'man]

It's been a while, but my friend was able to boost the damage of touch of death with negative spell power. Is this no longer the case?

You can with a Dark-Dark-Dark finisher, but that almost doubles the cost for 25% extra damage, which I don't think is worth it at all.

I noticed a dev post on another thread that stated hand wraps were going to be recoded into weapons, but it'd take time.


IMHO the three buffs to Earth stance in the Shintao tree ought to be a multiselector that let's you choose a stance to buff, and buffs it accordingly.
E.G.:
Fire stance gets damage bonus/heal amp bonus/crit range/multiplier bonus
Wind stance gets blur/double strike/vorpal knockdown
Earth stance gets AC/PRR/damage reduction
Water stance gets saves/dodge/tactics DCs

Also... the finishers. I got ideas I'll post later.

Somebody please put this guy on the Dev Board

[FestusHood]

You can with a Dark-Dark-Dark finisher, but that almost doubles the cost for 25% extra damage, which I don't think is worth it at all.



Somebody please put this guy on the Dev Board

Nah, this was spell power. He was around level 18 and put on an item with negative spell power and was doing 800-900 damage with tod. At least that's what he told me. I don't think he lied. I have a dark monk right now i guess i could respec and test it out.

[JOTMON]

In addition to the finishers, I think QP and ToD needs to be revamped too:

QP becomes useless in EE even if you dump your stats into wisdom, its DC is just too meh to really make it a reliable attack.

ToD is fine in heroics, but in EE it becomes obsolete, a L28 Legendary Dreadnought Monk can sneeze 500 damage, or just AA once...

Also, does anybody else think that finishers take too long to wind up? I mean seriously, by the time I try and wind up a Freezing the Lifeblood finisher, the fight is already almost over, or the enemy is at low health and its just a waste which is a serious turn-off and I never use them. Hell I'd bet that 90% of monks out there rarely even use finishers on a regular basis, I know i don't.

yeah they screwed QP.. all because some player posted a video and a forum post about how high the QP DC could be if you had everything spec'd geared and stars aligned.
Someone else complained about how easy it was for a QP monk to kill trash even though the build was worthless against bosses or warded mobs. complainers were not even playing monks.

So they power nerfed it into worthlessness.

Top that with the PRR/MRR changes and 1k hits from trash mobs...

then they brought out the Bard revamp that blew the monk's QP one mob at a time with their aoe destroyer..

Hoping the someday future monk revamp and handwrap changes will bring monks back into survivability.

[SealedInSong]

I know that I still find my monks fun, but I think the game doesn't have a real profile for them.

As an overview (NOT comprehensive list, using a reductionist attitude and of course, my personal opinion):

*Top endgame classes, in no order:
paladins:
high dps, high damage mitigation, potentially high damage avoidance, high self healing

bards:
high dps, medium damage mitigation, high damage avoidance, high crowd control, high self healing

barbarians:
top DPS (theoretically), medium to high damage mitigation, medium to high damage avoidance, medium self healing

*Good performance classes with visible niches:

favored soul, cleric:
medium DPS, high damage mitigation, top healing, special: divine spell utility (generally not as good as arcane spell utility). Pending second enhancement pass.

wizard, sorcerer:
medium to high DPS (generally not sustainably high except in Shiradi, and then not really as high as a frenzied berserker generally), high to top self healing, low to medium damage mitigation, special: arcane spell utility. Pending second enhancement pass.

artificer:
similar to to wizard/sorcerer except with special: infusions utility (generally < divine < arcane). Potentially higher sustained DPS with ranged since they can pretty much pew pew indefinitely, and good use of IPS is often > spell DPS. Pending second enhancement pass.

*Poor performance classes:

fighter: medium to high DPS, medium to high damage mitigation, low damage avoidance, special: feat rich, no self healing (!). Pending second enhancement pass.

rogue: medium DPS (highly situational, or if acrobat staff-user, poor weapon selection and synergies compared to top performing classes), high damage avoidance, low damage mitigation, special: trap skills (poor niche ability because it's easy to replicate with a small splash), low self healing. Personal opinion: high fun factor and unique gameplay, but even after their second enhancement pass, not a good or top performing class.

monk: medium DPS (as in OP, suffers many broken mechanics, poor critical profiles, etc), high damage avoidance, low to medium damage mitigation, special: highest attack rate, low self healing. Pending second enhancement pass.

***

Of course, there are nuances to each class, i.e. if Quivering Palm is your favorite ability ever, that does bump monk up for you personally.

However, my sense across 30 characters is that my monks, though fun to play, are in the rogues and fighters camp, where there is a lot of potential for them to have a useful endgame niche but their current value is actually quite low.

For monks in particular (but also rogues to a certain extent), their low self healing and damage mitigation is NOT offset by their damage avoidance or DPS.

To use 4E reductionist terms, they're not real "strikers" because strikers are supposed to have really great DPS. DDO has inadvertently dumped this model and given top DPS and high-top damage mitigation/avoidance all in one package.

[Full_Bleed]

So they power nerfed it into worthlessness.

It never should have been that powerful to begin with. In the game this is based on, it was a ONCE A WEEK ability. The DDO translation was silly. It never should have been put on a cool down. It should have had a limited number of uses per rest or used action boosts. The current cumulative +4 DC on failures, short cool down, and ability to benefit from general tactical boosts is significant and plenty good enough to make it a viable insta killer. Just not stupid easy to get a free kill every 6 seconds like it used to be.

So you stand still trying to hit things with fists with TINY little melee range. Meanwhile the Remington Roomsweeper Barb has already killed everything.

Unarmed monk attacks have the best melee range in the game, save for glancing blows.

[dunklezhan]

MRR PRR is not the answer, I don't think. The point of those stats is to provide benefit to classes without evasion more than anything else by allowing armour to actually absorb some punishment rather than just being a miss chance. PRR came first and was intended specifically to simulate armour absorbing some of the impact of physical blows. MRR came later for spurious thematic reasons but again specifically to give lower-save, more armoured targets a better chance vs magics, especially epic level magics.

Monks however don't absorb damage, and never have. Monks are supposed to be not getting hit in the first place & using their high saves and evasion to stay safe. When they DO get hit, it IS supposed to hurt. That's kinda the point, and I wouldn't want to see that lost.

Where we're suffering is in the "not getting hit in the first place" area. Attacks are coming in so fast at top levels that avoidance chances get overwhelmed quite easily by simple laws of averages, and when two or three attacks get through in a short space of time you're done for due to the amount of damage delivered by each attack. Nevertheless, they should be avoiding, not absorbing, so in my opinion (which is from a point of view of thematic fit not necessarily easy changes) MRR/PRR is not the way.

Sadly I don't have any particularly brilliant ideas how, so maybe I should shut up. More inherent dodge than is currently granted, and an even higher dodge cap based off monk level maybe? An epic monk feat that works a bit like deflect arrows but applies to melee hits only? Lower the to hit of epic level mobs (its not like they ever seem to miss me except via ghostly/displace/blur/dodge no matter what character I'm on anyway...)?

Also yes - I too understood that they were finally going to have a serious go at sorting out handwraps. Good luck to them because a: they need the luck, and b: we desperately need the fix!

[Ikeas]

It never should have been that powerful to begin with. In the game this is based on, it was a ONCE A WEEK ability. The DDO translation was silly. It never should have been put on a cool down. It should have had a limited number of uses per rest or used action boosts. The current cumulative +4 DC on failures, short cool down, and ability to benefit from general tactical boosts is significant and plenty good enough to make it a viable insta killer. Just not stupid easy to get a free kill every 6 seconds like it used to be.

Coup de Grace.

[ThreadNecromancer]

Somebody please put this guy on the Dev Board

Appreciate the sentiment, but I hate politics.

Also, does anybody else think that finishers take too long to wind up? I mean seriously, by the time I try and wind up a Freezing the Lifeblood finisher, the fight is already almost over, or the enemy is at low health and its just a waste which is a serious turn-off and I never use them. Hell I'd bet that 90% of monks out there rarely even use finishers on a regular basis, I know i don't.

I do. But here I am still posting changes, so...

Maybe... but finisher DC is still too low to be viable on epic. Being almost all Fortitude saves, we would need to have that DC on the 70s at least, and right now you can feel lucky if your Finisher DC reaches the 60s (and with a massive investment on WIS sources).

Not only the Finishers effects, but the ability to land them on all content, needs a deep look.

Considering the way these finishers are used, IMO they never should've had DCs.

Well said. I love monks, they brought me to this game and they're basically why I stay.

There a more subtle fail going on in addition to power creep aka nerf by proxy.

Originally monks could really excel using key combos. It was a class that really only pulled ahead if you knew what you were doing ability wise in a fight. I knew all the light and most of the dark finishers cold, I kept +25% SP reduction up all the time, everyone was AoE healed whenever that was up etc. I still walk into a dungeon and Align the Heavens so everyone gets 25% off the buff stage.

I also love monks. And I also help everyone Aligning the Heavens at the start or at shrines. I get the feeling it's an... underwhelming effect tho, they all still chug SP pots.


Ok... here's my idea for finishers. Round fractions up, all typed as Enlightenment bonuses.

The basic triple element combos:
Earth: Adds 1/3 monk level to AC for 1 min, AoE, Ally-only
Wind: Adds 1/3 monk level to dodge chance for 1 min, AoE, Ally-only
Fire: Adds 1/3 monk level to damage for 1 min, AoE, Ally-only
Water: Adds 1/3 monk level to saves for 1 min, AoE, Ally-only

Light monk finishers:
Earth: Adds monk level to PRR for 1 min, AoE, Ally-only
Wind: Adds monk level to displacement for 1 min, AoE, Ally-only
Fire: Adds monk level to healing amplification for 1 min, AoE, Ally-only
Water: Adds monk level to elemental resistances for 1 min, AoE, Ally-only
Light: Heals 1d6 hp/monk level, AoE, Ally-only (affected by Positive SP)

Dark monk finishers:
Earth: Adds monk level to fortification bypass % for 1 min, Self-only
Wind: Adds monk level to attack speed for 1 min, Self-only
Fire: Adds monk level to confirm criticals & critical damage for 1 min, Self-only
Water: Adds monk level to tactics DC for 1 min, Self-only
Dark: Deals 1d6 negative energy damage/monk level, AoE, Enemy-only (Affected by Negative SP)


I too miss the days where we had four different Void attacks available.

Maybe Void should be the third path for a monk to take, if they decide not to go Light or Dark.

Void finishers, all affected by respective spell power:
Earth: 1d6 acid damage/monk level, AoE, Enemy-only
Wind: 1d6 electric damage/monk level, AoE, Enemy-only
Fire: 1d6 fire damage/monk level, AoE, Enemy-only
Water: 1d6 cold damage/monk level, AoE, Enemy-only
Void: 1d6 force damage/monk level, AoE, Enemy-only


Notice how the Light finishers are all defensive and harmony-focused, and the Dark finishers are all offensive and selfish. Pretty much just so they follow the philosophies of their respective paths. Can't come up with much for Void finishers... it's Void, after all.