Saga XP/Renown and Epic Quests.

[Impaqt]

I've made plenty of changes over the years and will continue to make changes however I'm just asking for some realization from the Devs {and from players like you} that the gap has become too wide!

Which gap? between Hard and Elite? How so?

There can't be only one way to play the game!
We must have Choices!
AND
Forcing People to Play EE and Only EE is the OPPOSITE of Choice!

and yet you are sitting here saying you wont run the quest on anything other than EE... what do you REALLY want? more reason to run other difficulties or for EE to be easier?

Let's say I take people's "advice" in this thread and run Demonweb Solo on EN 20 times followed by Solo on EH 20 times and even then when I step into EE I get killed by the first mob!
What do I do?
I put up a Group and no-one joins!
What do I do?
I only ran these quests on EN and EH in the first place to LEARN them so I could run EE but I'm literally NEVER going to be able to Solo EE so whatever happens I'll still need a group!
I don't even LIKE these quests!
They're not "fun" now and certainly won't be "fun" the 41st time through!


You get nothing for running EN or EH other than XP!

Completely false. running quests accumulates renown and completing sagas allows you get choose renown as a reward.

If getting a group for EE is difficult then how difficult do you think it is to get a group for EN or EH? - I'll tell you how - IMPOSSIBLE!

so solo it on Normal or Hard....

If the quest isn't "fun" and doesn't offer any tangible rewards on that difficulty then why am I gonna run it?

then dont. move on to something thats fun.

Now - People have complained for years {incl. me} that Elite has become the Default. And we mistakenly conflated that strictly with XP.
I've come to realize that XP is actually the LEAST of reasons to run Elite!
If all I wanted was XP I'd never step in an Elite quest ever again!

The Elite amongst us will always want their top difficulty to give the best rewards BUT other difficulties cannot be as far behind as they are now!

And when it comes to Sagas - Obviously the rewards are so large already that pushing Epic True Elite up so as to make the other Epic Renown rewards better would be a mistake!
On the other hand - Reducing the rewards for Heroic True Elite {and lesser Heroic rewards} would also be a mistake.

So - I simply ask for Epic True Elite to be given new {different and possibly cosmetic only} rewards for those who want the Challenge AND the bragging power!
While also upgrading the Lesser Epic Saga rewards to the same as Heroic Elite to show that YES these ARE more difficult {and time consuming} to complete!

if renown is so important to you and your guild... why wont your own guildmates run the EE quests with you?

Maybe you need to take a look at your guild and figure out how important renown really is. If no one but you really cares about the guild level, perhaps there isnt really a reason to rush to 150.

[psykopeta]

Again - You're simply not getting my point!

No matter what happens I'm ONLY going to run these quests ONCE each life!

So... Having run every other quest in the saga on EE and knowing that I'm currently in no rush to TR {Heck I'm pretty much at the start of a 4th ETR} why would I complete the Saga on anything other than True Elite?

IF I still haven't completed those two EE Demonweb quests having done every ETR and being Lvl 30 then maybe then I'll say screw it and run them on EH or EN but that's a long way off!

Whether I get EE Demonweb done today or in 6 months time it will still be the exact same renown gain!
Completing those two sagas with EN runs of those two demonweb quests now would be a net renown LOSS!

i must say that you are harming yourself, you're forcing yourself to do something you simply can't accomplish and by that means, crippling the renown you are giving to your guild and the fun (ok, the fun part is from my point of view) making yourself stuck

i know people who complete sagas on eh, because they can't solo EE and feel much easier to fill their EH pugs, and i'm in thelanis, where 99% of population are elitist jerks

if you can't complete EE, and aren't willing to complete sagas and quests several times, you're doing it wrong, changing the method has nothing to do it

and giving to EN and EH the same renown as heroic elite is spitting in low level toons' face, cause there's nothing that denies epic chars to get heroic elite saga completions, which IMHO would be the real solution to the problems in that thread, cause the rewards should be related to challenge, completing heroic saga as epic toon in most cases gives no challenge

if you can't get certain completion, certain loot, certain reward at all, it's not always the system's fault, in certain cases it's a trouble of how you face it

[FranOhmsford]

and yet you are sitting here saying you wont run the quest on anything other than EE... what do you REALLY want? more reason to run other difficulties or for EE to be easier?

TBH Both!

EE could do with a downgrade in my view.

But - This thread is about the OTHER difficulties and NOT about EE!

Completely false. running quests accumulates renown and completing sagas allows you get choose renown as a reward.

I've stated over and over again what I meant by this but that simply doesn't matter to you so long as a quest is giving something you're just fine with the inequality!

Seriously - The Renown in EN and EH Quests is ATROCIOUS!

Sagas are the ONLY way to get decent renown and so long as I can Solo 2x Heroic Elite GH in less time than it takes me to Solo a single EH Madstone then there's literally no point me even bothering with Epic Sagas other than from Favor runs {i.e. that's why Epic Sagas are once per life for me!}.

if renown is so important to you and your guild... why wont your own guildmates run the EE quests with you?

Maybe because one of them barely plays and the other is also quite a bit less active than myself AND spends most of his time on characters that aren't even in the Guild!

Basically it's a Solo Guild!

Maybe you need to take a look at your guild and figure out how important renown really is. If no one but you really cares about the guild level, perhaps there isnt really a reason to rush to 150.

Again - It's my Guild and I care about it - I doubt I'll ever see 150 but I'm not gonna stop trying to get there!

Also - Not sure about the word "rush" in this context as it's taken the best part of 5 years just to reach Lvl 95!

[FranOhmsford]

i must say that you are harming yourself, you're forcing yourself to do something you simply can't accomplish and by that means, crippling the renown you are giving to your guild and the fun (ok, the fun part is from my point of view) making yourself stuck

The problem is that other reason I have to run EE - i.e. Favour {5k}.

If it wasn't for that then I probably wouldn't bother with Epic Sagas at all - Saga Renown on anything but True Elite frankly isn't worth it in my view so long as I can run Heroic Elite Sagas.

BUT While I'm running EEs for the Favour anyway you can be certain that the Saga Renown is not something I'm gonna give up on!

i know people who complete sagas on eh, because they can't solo EE and feel much easier to fill their EH pugs, and i'm in thelanis, where 99% of population are elitist jerks

I've found that Pugs don't fill unless you're IP already - Demonweb Quests are so short that those who CAN Solo them will usually be finished before anyone even hits the LFM and someone like myself who CAN'T Solo them is stuck waiting in E-Star for at least 1 other person!

if you can't complete EE, and aren't willing to complete sagas and quests several times, you're doing it wrong, changing the method has nothing to do it

Really?

Doing it wrong?

This is exactly what I'm railing against - The assumption that there can be only one way!

and giving to EN and EH the same renown as heroic elite is spitting in low level toons' face, cause there's nothing that denies epic chars to get heroic elite saga completions, which IMHO would be the real solution to the problems in that thread, cause the rewards should be related to challenge, completing heroic saga as epic toon in most cases gives no challenge

I thought about this but it simply doesn't work that way!

Elitists will continue to run EEs simply because they CAN!

More people will be able to run Sagas on EN and EH yes but low level players don't stay low level for long any more and even if they did they're not running Heroic Sagas over and over again at Lvl 7 {heck they're lvl 9 before they've even completed one 3BC/Sentinels Saga!} or Lvl 15 for Gianthold!


The Devs have clearly decided against Nerfing Heroic GH Saga to once per life {or even once per 4 days like Heroic 3BC} - Heck they nerfed Heroic 3BC to once per life then in what I think was the very next update reversed that decision to the current 1/4days situation!

They clearly understand that lesser players also need a way to earn Renown but won't do the obvious thing and Make EN/EH actually worth running!

[Enoach]

@FranOhmsford

You have made some points that you would like to do the Demonweb series on EE but at this time you are not able to solo it, you are unable to find a group running it and you have not been successful in getting people to join an LFM.

You have two reasons you would like to do this
1) The Guild Renown that comes with the Saga completion
2) The 5K favor

I do feel your statement that you can run GH heroic saga on HE twice in the same time as it takes you to run Madstone on Epic Hard once seems a bit over-dramatic. But it does bring out questions of how you are attempting to tackle quest completions.

--------------------
Now there are multiple ways to tackle Trial By Fury. A popular approach, which is not friendly to those who don't know the path is to jump around the barriers. This leaves you with a Yugoloth fight, a Render Fight, at least one side of spiders and Yugoloth mini boss and finally the boss fight. While I know this path well this is not my favorite way of doing this quest. I prefer doing the wisdom and doing the small fights after each door. To me this has advantages in that a late entry has a clear path, I don't loss anyone back to the beginning because they missed a jump and I get the bonus XP for doing all the wisdom puzzles. All of these mini fights are small and can be controlled by pulling back and making each fight one on one/two. End fight is simply attrition and not running out of resources to damage before the boss runs out of HP. Again the number of doors you open and the number you jump past is totally up to you.

The Deal and the Demon is very liner and also most fights are 5 or less mobs, these can be pulled apart to one on one with pulling techniques.

Reclaiming the Rift has the difficult mechanic in that you have to give up your life force to stabilize the rift. Using pet/hireling to do this can save you from losing HP. Now you can also pull the arena style fight up the web to give you more a one-on-one battle, you just want to make sure you drag the last mob back to the rift to give yourself time to get the rift clicked. If you jump off the side it will port you to the top of the ramp above the Rift area. This is a good way to escape if things get too heated.

The trick that many learn is that just about any quest can be done if you are willing to be creative and willing to be patient.

What I recommend if you want to group to help you do these quests is to put up an LFM and be patient. State in the notes you are running the whole series on EE. Also you don't need to wait for 4 to 6 to start.

I still don't believe the Renown needs to change on Saga as how it is set allows those that want to stay in the Heroic part of the game the same ability to level their guild as those in Epic.

[Chi_Ryu]

{I don't know how the XP bonuses work because I've never taken XP as a reward but I assume it's the same!}

Your assumption is flawed. The XP awarded by any saga on Heroic True Elite is strictly less than that awarded with the same saga on Epic Hard (Except Perils of Cormyr, which is oddly 1k XP more) - and is always at most half that of Epic True Elite (and usually a lot less than half).

Renown is the oddity in that it only depends on difficulty, not on heroic/epic. I wouldn't be adverse to it being rebalanced (read: reduced on Heroic, the ratio between Saga and quest rewards for Guild Renown is ridiculously large, compared to the ratio between saga and quest XP).

Reclaiming the Rift has the difficult mechanic in that you have to give up your life force to stabilize the rift.

If you jump off the side it will port you to the top of the ramp above the Rift area.

...and will remove the HP penalty, oddly. I have no idea if this is WAI, but it has been the behaviour for as long as I've known.

[Braegan]

OP,

I have to disagree with your proposed changes.

I neither want EE to be easier, nor do I want the few rewards for running the game at its top level to be taken away and applied to all levels of difficulty.

As they stand, they promote a reason to run EEs, folks scoff at the reasons there are to run EE at all, lets not take away one of the few it has. It also provides incentive. It is clearly something you can live without but you want it. I would daresay the system is doing its job.

In regards to the 5k favor tome. I can see that. Hey it's a free(ish) +5 tome, why not go for it.

For guild related ship stuff, meh not even worth it IMO. You know I am in a completely solo guild. Currently level 64. Just recently upgraded to a storm glory typhoon and got most of the goodies. Really anything above this level is just gravy, I can certainly live without it and it is certainly not worth any stress over. I've got stats, spell power, DCs, spell pen, saves, xp, blah, blah, blah. Aside from a couple smaller skill based ones (that are AS purchase anyways) I got all I need at level 64. You are past that in your guild.

Honestly I think you are overstressing a non issue man.

[TrinityTurtle]

Again - You're simply not getting my point!

No matter what happens I'm ONLY going to run these quests ONCE each life!

And here is my point exactly, "I don't want to make any changes, so they need to change the game for me. You want to run like that, nothing wrong with that. However, you also take the consequences of your choices.

Wrong - You can still run Heroic GH as many times as you like!

You can still run an Heroic 3BC every 4 days!

I will look into that. I never bothered to farm them for anything, but the ability to try for the +1 tomes I need to use the army of +2 upgrades that drop for me and are just sitting is worth knowing about since I always get stupid offerings when I do my heroic one and dones. I must have missed when they relented on the once per life on heroic, probably due to forum rage.

You already had multiple Lvl 20 characters pre MotU.

You were already at the top when the game changed and continued to remain at the top through each subsequent change!

For those of us who continue to play catch up the chasm has widened!

And what exactly does me having multiple 20s at the top at motu have to do with my advice on how to get things done? When I started, and had nothing, and had to pull myself up by my own brain, vets locked new players out of the raids. Epics were brutal before motu, and I struggled my shell off trying to do well. I was NOT at the top at all. What I WAS at that time was honest with other players about my playskills, asking questions about how they did things, and paying attention to the tactics they used. And THAT is how how I did finally get into the top tierish area of players, but by no means at the top. There are a LOT of players stratospherically better than me. But I earned it, and if I can as a woman who struggles hard with attention defecit disorder and a few secondary gaming-impact issues can do it, anyone who actually wants to can also. I didn't come to this game with natural playing ability, I was weak and gimp and completely lost, and worked hard to change that. At the top my shell. Also, for the historical record since you are again doing the 'I barely know her, but I know more about her than she does" thing, for the first year and a half after motu I lived in en and eh. EE was hard, and I was still working on my skills with a few people I knew. I couldn't do it, and didn't pretend I could. Now I can, because I tried and learned.

As for the raid scene, they used myDDO to exclude constantly when I was new and had nothing, and with a sorcerer toon I barely knew what I was doing with, undergeared, and a grand maximum total of 215 hp at 20 before tr was a possibility to fix her, I got left out of them all. I know what that's like. So I got off my but and made it happen for myself. I started running the shrouds without a clue what I was doing and learning as I went. And if anyone on Sarlona needs gs, hit me up on the freakin' help channel and say so, it's why I hang around on the thing and worked so hard to get it going. Dont' whine on the forums, talk to me for help, or start a channel on your own server and gather people to work together. The gap has always been wide. However, now, people have a far easier time of catching up. There are far better and easier to get weapons and gear than green steel. I play once a week on a server where I have NOTHING, and still manage to have a great time and complete the quests. Is it not as easy? Of course not, I have no past lives, no gear, and the rules prevent me from any easy paths of getting them (which is why I joined). So I get a refresher on this every single week. And my advice remains the same. We make things happen for ourselves, or we can sit around waiting for them to happen.

There can't be only one way to play the game!
We must have Choices!
AND
Forcing People to Play EE and Only EE is the OPPOSITE of Choice!

We DO Have choices. Sagas work for all three, they drop xp, tomes, and renown for all three. You make the choice of which one you want and go for it. You HAVE a freaking choice. Heck, most of the people really seriously trying to earn renown to level their guilds that I know are doing it on eh and some even on en because it's faster and they get more total rewards and therefore more renown.

Example: If you blow through normal Honor of the huntsilver, you get 5k renown. Let's say the average person can do it 5 times faster than they can do the same on ee. That person can earn 25k renown before bonuses in the time it would take them to earn 15k. hard is 7.5, so that would be 37.50. This is called: choice. Pick which one appeals the most to you and do it.

As for getting people into my groups or getting into others groups, I did that by being as considerate and friendly as I possibly can, and working hard for my groups. I built a reputation because I cared about it, and work hard to be likeable and as drama-free as possible and people respond to that. I go back to get dead people if they got lost, I try to make sure people don't get lost, share loot, I help people with favor/wahtever runs when they ask nicely and I'm not comitted to someone else, and I try to help people who are struggling. Heck, when the help channel died I resurrected it to make sure there was a resource for new players to help with your 'catch-up chasm'. I join as many teaching raids my guild hosts that I'm qualified to help with (still shaky on a few as far as reliably teaching others, so I sit those out) as I can manage. I'm all about helping people get there. But I absolutely will not agree to nerf the rewards people worked hard to earn. That is how I got to the top, not by having level 20 toons. This behavior earned me my place in groups, that let me ask questions and learn, and grow.

As for getting nothing for en or eh, that's silly. I've gotten all sorts of loot on those levels, as well as favor and xp and saga rewards. Stuff drops. The chances are lowered, but it drops. I got guilt tripped into an en the other day in citw(by the turtles I hate raid, it is SO freakin' boring at any difficulty), and saw a buncha comms and four named items drop. Course not the one my friend led the raid hoping to get, but the barbarian and the rogue guys were happy.

[FranOhmsford]

@FranOhmsford

You have made some points that you would like to do the Demonweb series on EE but at this time you are not able to solo it, you are unable to find a group running it and you have not been successful in getting people to join an LFM.

You have two reasons you would like to do this
1) The Guild Renown that comes with the Saga completion
2) The 5K favor

Spot on.

I do feel your statement that you can run GH heroic saga on HE twice in the same time as it takes you to run Madstone on Epic Hard once seems a bit over-dramatic. But it does bring out questions of how you are attempting to tackle quest completions.

Considering that even in a Duo with myself on a Cleric and a Friend on a Paladin it took us well over an hour to do EE Cabal and that even on Heroic Elite Madstone takes over 3-4 times what Cabal takes {6 min Cabal, 20+ for Madstone} I'd guess that Soloing Madstone even on EH would take me over 90 mins {I can do a complete Heroic Elite Saga in 60!}.

So - OK Make that 2 Heroic Elite Sagas in the time it takes me to solo EH Madstone and PoP {or Madstone and Tor} - Crucible's gonna get skipped no matter what as there's no way I can solo the Rune Wheels! {Even if I do manage to somehow get past the Swim and the Shrine!}.

--------------------
Now there are multiple ways to tackle Trial By Fury. A popular approach, which is not friendly to those who don't know the path is to jump around the barriers. This leaves you with a Yugoloth fight, a Render Fight, at least one side of spiders and Yugoloth mini boss and finally the boss fight. While I know this path well this is not my favorite way of doing this quest. I prefer doing the wisdom and doing the small fights after each door. To me this has advantages in that a late entry has a clear path, I don't loss anyone back to the beginning because they missed a jump and I get the bonus XP for doing all the wisdom puzzles. All of these mini fights are small and can be controlled by pulling back and making each fight one on one/two. End fight is simply attrition and not running out of resources to damage before the boss runs out of HP. Again the number of doors you open and the number you jump past is totally up to you.

The Deal and the Demon is very liner and also most fights are 5 or less mobs, these can be pulled apart to one on one with pulling techniques.

Reclaiming the Rift has the difficult mechanic in that you have to give up your life force to stabilize the rift. Using pet/hireling to do this can save you from losing HP. Now you can also pull the arena style fight up the web to give you more a one-on-one battle, you just want to make sure you drag the last mob back to the rift to give yourself time to get the rift clicked. If you jump off the side it will port you to the top of the ramp above the Rift area. This is a good way to escape if things get too heated.

1. You're making the assumption that I'd be able to survive against those mobs solo in the first place - Trust me neither Molineux {WF FvS} or Lieuk {Pure Elf Monk} are in any way capable of surviving EEs solo!

2. Hirelings? Really? On the very small chance that they don't die even before I do there's literally no way I can keep both myself and a Hire alive in EE Demonweb solo!

3. One of my biggest problems with the Demonweb IS the Puzzle - I'm not good at Puzzles.
I may be able to learn the quick route by running it a few times on a lesser difficulty but that doesn't help me get EE done!

The trick that many learn is that just about any quest can be done if you are willing to be creative and willing to be patient.

Not sure about the Creative part as you've literally stated that there's only two possible ways to run Trial By Fury {Knowing which way works better isn't the same as being creative.}.

As for willing to be patient - Well let's just say that I'm hardly the rush to the end of the line type - 5 Years playing and I don't have a single End-Game capable character AND my most TRd character is on Life 5!

However....When it comes to quests I tend to decide during the first run whether I like that quest or not and only rarely does that decision change over time.
There's a lot of quests I'll happily run each and every life.
There's a lot of quests I'll grudgingly run each and every life.
There's a number of quests I'd be very happy to never run again {Crucible and The Pit to name just two!} IF it wasn't for the fact that I need them!

What I recommend if you want to group to help you do these quests is to put up an LFM and be patient. State in the notes you are running the whole series on EE. Also you don't need to wait for 4 to 6 to start.

I didn't say anything about needing to wait for 4-6 before starting - Heck I'd happily start with any 2 players plus myself and a hire OR with one great player plus myself and a hire!


Also - People tend to do quests in a certain order - Most chains I know that order but when I put a Demonweb LFM up I can't stop the feeling that I've put up the wrong quest first!
After a 20-30 minute wait with no takers it becomes a case of how long do I sit here? {Demonweb quests are short, the Slayer is Horrid and it's a minimum of 2 loading screens from pretty much anywhere else in game just to get into that slayer {never mind getting to the quests!} so running something else while I wait is out of the question and I've already stated that going IP solo is just going to result in a quick release to my Guild Airship!

I still don't believe the Renown needs to change on Saga as how it is set allows those that want to stay in the Heroic part of the game the same ability to level their guild as those in Epic.

Seriously?

I've already covered this myth.

People aren't sticking at Lvl 7 to run 3BC Saga over and over again {except for those who are making vet II alts strictly to run said saga then be deleted!}.
People aren't sticking at Lvl 15 to run GH Saga over and over again {except for those who are making Iconic alts strictly to run said saga then be deleted!}.

Heroic Sagas are there to provide a Renown Boost AS we level up - I don't want them Nerfed for that reason!

But I do want to see EN and EH outside of VoN 3/4, Wiz King, Spies and the rest of the standard Dailies given a reason for being!

[FranOhmsford]

I will look into that. I never bothered to farm them for anything, but the ability to try for the +1 tomes I need to use the army of +2 upgrades that drop for me and are just sitting is worth knowing about since I always get stupid offerings when I do my heroic one and dones. I must have missed when they relented on the once per life on heroic, probably due to forum rage.

I can guarantee you that Heroic GH is repeatable {over and over and over again!} - I've run 4x in a row on multiple occasions {Get Heroic 3BC and Heroic GH done, drink 300% Pot, Run Heroic GH 3x {Yes this means skipping both Madstone and Cruci each time but I've run Heroic GH 3x in the 3 hrs available on a 300% Pot!}.

Example: If you blow through normal Honor of the huntsilver, you get 5k renown. Let's say the average person can do it 5 times faster than they can do the same on ee. That person can earn 25k renown before bonuses in the time it would take them to earn 15k. hard is 7.5, so that would be 37.50. This is called: choice. Pick which one appeals the most to you and do it.

Other than the first time through each life why would I repeat Honor of the Huntsilvers for 5k base renown when I can run Heroic GH in less time for 15k base renown?


Where's the incentive?

It's not Loot - Random Loot is mainly trash in Epics anyway even in EEs!
It's certainly not XP as I don't give a Monkey's about XP - If I want to catch up on XP I'll just run my Dailies!
And Unless you're running at the actual level of the quest Renown is almost non-existent! {So a Lvl 26 running ENs is going to need to be running Orchard or E-Stormhorns quests to get anything of worth and my Lvl 26's aren't capable of running those quests solo yet!

[FranOhmsford]

As they stand, they promote a reason to run EEs, folks scoff at the reasons there are to run EE at all, lets not take away one of the few it has. It also provides incentive. It is clearly something you can live without but you want it. I would daresay the system is doing its job.

I'm not against EE providing a reason to be run other than simply the Challenge - Although I do believe that the Challenge should be the #1 reason there!

What I'm saying is that except for a few high xp quests there's literally NO reason to run any difficulty in Epics OTHER than EE!

You want "Lesser" Players to stay out of EEs so you can get the Devs to beef up those EEs to cater to those who want Challenge?
Well the first thing to do is make d@mn sure there's a REASON {other than you're not capable of running EE! Because we all know that there's not a single player in DDO who can't pike an EE Completion of every quest at least once!} to run the other difficulties!

[Oxarhamar]

I never said to make HE more attractive - Them's your words not mine!


As for EN and EH - Hell yes they should be made more attractive!
There's literally no reason to ever run Demonweb, Schindylrynn or King's Forest on anything other than EE!
Gianthold, High Road, Stormhorns, 3BC and Wheloon have Heroic options!
Even when you take the Epic only Sagas for the quests with Heroic options you come back to the fact that there's literally no reason to run them on anything other than EE!

OK so some E-GH quests get added to the EN/EH Daily runs BUT that's not enough to make the difference - In fact even when I do run dailies I stick around only for Spies, Wiz King, VoN 3/4 and OoB!
If I'm going to be running E-GH it's gotta be for more than just a bit more XP!

All of those quests listed give better XP/min on EN & EH (especially for those incapable of completing EE) there is already incentive to run lower difficulties.

[Oxarhamar]

I'm not against EE providing a reason to be run other than simply the Challenge - Although I do believe that the Challenge should be the #1 reason there!

What I'm saying is that except for a few high xp quests there's literally NO reason to run any difficulty in Epics OTHER than EE!

You want "Lesser" Players to stay out of EEs so you can get the Devs to beef up those EEs to cater to those who want Challenge?
Well the first thing to do is make d@mn sure there's a REASON {other than you're not capable of running EE! Because we all know that there's not a single player in DDO who can't pike an EE Completion of every quest at least once!} to run the other difficulties!

Wrong there's less reasons to run EE than EN for most content.

[FranOhmsford]

All of those quests listed give better XP/min on EN & EH (especially for those incapable of completing EE) there is already incentive to run lower difficulties.

You're making my point for me!

When XP is the ONLY incentive to run a quest then Turbine have failed!

When the ONLY incentive to run a quest on a lower difficulty is faster XP then Turbine have failed MISERABLY!

[Oxarhamar]

You're making my point for me!

When XP is the ONLY incentive to run a quest then Turbine have failed!

When the ONLY incentive to run a quest on a lower difficulty is faster XP then Turbine have failed MISERABLY!

I agree to an extent however, EE should offer the most XP/min not lower difficulties just because, they are faster.

None of those quests offer Tier loot or special EE rewards there's really little reason to run EE.

[FranOhmsford]

I agree to an extent however, EE should offer the most XP/min not lower difficulties just because, they are faster.

None of those quests offer Tier loot or special EE rewards there's really little reason to run EE.

The Quests I listed in that post were specifically the Dailies.

The ones that people run for nothing other than XP {Heck they're all Lvl 20-22 base so a group of Lvl 28s could probably complete EE in only slightly more time than EN so your XP/Min argument goes out the window there!}.

They're run mainly on EN and EH because most of the people running them are blasting through the lower Epic levels as fast as they can and are literally ONLY interested in XP!

EE would take too long for the extra XP so they stick to the lesser difficulties!

BUT

The problem here is that it's still ONLY the XP that makes these quests popular!

IF Small Problem gave the same XP as VoN 3 then that would be added to the Dailies and VoN 4 would most likely get skipped!
IF Partycrashers gave the same XP as Spies then that would be added to the Dailies and those few people who bother to run out to OoB now would do Partycrashers instead!

***THE EXAMPLE BELOW IS NOT AN ACTUAL SUGGESTION***
IF Every Epic Quest were to give exactly the same XP {comparatively to time spent in quest - Say E-VoN 3 takes on average 10 minutes and E-Trial by Fire takes on average 5 then E-VoN 3 would give twice the XP of E-Trial by Fire} then people would gravitate to the quests that they actually enjoy!
Obviously some quests still wouldn't be run much because of time getting to them but that's another issue entirely.
***I AM NOT ASKING FOR THE ABOVE TO HAPPEN***

The fact is though that:
Higher difficulty = Better Loot Drops
Higher difficulty = Better Renown Chance
Higher difficulty = Better total XP

while

Lower difficulty = Lesser Loot Drops
Lower difficulty = Lesser Renown Chance
Lower difficulty = Faster XP

So lower difficulties' only true incentive is to the XP/Min Crowd!


For those players who play lower difficulties because they CAN'T play EE - That's NOT an INCENTIVE - That's a NECESSITY!

[Enoach]

@FranOhmsford

Based on your responses you are the one that has limited yourself. If you are not capable of soloing the content at the difficulty you want in the time frame you want then your option is to wait for a group. Be that join an LFM or create one. If you feel so strongly that you must complete a quest at a difficulty then you need to have the patience to fill the LFM. Why you are struggling to fill an LFM with even one other player is something I don't know, could be the time frame, could be the server it could be your guild or even personal reputation.

As for starting point, most times I see this series run they start with Trial by Fury.

Now I gave two examples of how it can be done. Using the puzzles is only one, the strength tests work the same. Sometimes the group I'm in does both.

In the end it is up to you to learn how to run a quest that works for you.

I think you should try again to form a group.

Now as for the Renown. I did point out that doing the heroic sagas can be done by Epic characters. However, there are groups of players that never enter Epic and having the Guild Renown set the way it is means that those groups have the same potential of leveling their guild as those that run the epic level versions. It is only the groups, much like yourself, that run Heroic sagas to earn Renown. And you do this because this is your decision to do so.

PS. I'm sorry that you base your opinion of like of dislike of a quest on a single run through. Sometimes you need to give quests more attempts before you make a decision. Your first run could be tainted by being in a group that skips sections or blows past stuff and gives you no time to enjoy it.

Good luck in questing

[JOTMON]

OK - I know this isn't going to go down well with some of you but hear me out:

Heroic True Elite giving the exact same renown bonus as Epic True Elite KILLS Epic Normal and Epic Hard!

Reducing Heroic Elite's renown bonuses {I don't know how the XP bonuses work because I've never taken XP as a reward but I assume it's the same!} isn't the answer as that hurts those of us who can't run EEs!

In the same vein - Boosting EE renown also cannot be the answer as that will widen the gap between those who can and those who can't to a chasm!


My Suggestion is to give EN/EH the exact same Renown {and XP} as Heroic True Elite while adding different {Possibly cosmetic only} rewards to Epic True Elite.


The advantages of this is that:
- more people get their chance to progress through Epic Normal and Hard rather than being forced to go straight to EE!
- Chains like the Demonweb actually have a reason to be run on something OTHER than EE!
- Guilds don't become High Level just because they have a couple of EE Capable Players taking renown while other Guilds languish!



About the Demonweb - Seriously... I have no ability to run EE and am forced to hope that a group pops up that I can tag along with!
I'm NEVER going to run EN or EH because there's absolutely NO reason for me to run EN or EH!
Even if I do complete an EN or EH I'm not going to hand in my Saga because that would equate not to a gain of renown but to a HUGE LOSS as I'd have to complete every other quest in the Saga a second time on EE + a second run of at least two of the three Demonweb quests!

I have no intention of ever running EE on any quest more than Once per life as there's literally only two reasons I'd ever step into EE {Favour for those quests that don't have an Heroic difficulty setting AND Saga Renown!}.

With Sagas resetting upon TR I don't even have the option to complete a Saga over multiple lives!


P.S. I have not one but TWO Epic characters who are stuck needing to complete 2 EE Demonweb quests to complete their Sagas before TRing!
I managed to get EVERY other EE Saga quest run but CANNOT find a Group for these because those who can run them on EE don't put groups up and don't join groups put up by those of us who need help!

I don't see any of this as reason to change Sagas

Its not forced, its encouragement.
You get rewards for Normal/Hard/Elite.. the more Elite you do the better the reward.
The higher the difficulty the more points you earn, the more points you have at turn in time the better the reward choices.

I don't see any point to spoonfeeding saga xp, that would just be silly.
Saga Favor is an opportunity for bonus XP not a loss of XP.
so you say you have no intention of running EE quests more than once, thats a choice..not a requirement..
You don't have to run at the Elite difficulty, you can run the saga chain repeatedly at whatever difficulty is manageable.
You say there is no reason to run EN/EH, but EN/EH give XP and saga points, just not as many as Elite..

You can also use Astrals Shards and/or VIP to purchase a free completion of quests within the Saga if you like as well.. for those one off quests you just cant get people together for.

You don't have to run that saga series at all, there are other sagas you could run.. or skip saga's all together.. plenty of xp out there.

[Braegan]

I'm not against EE providing a reason to be run other than simply the Challenge - Although I do believe that the Challenge should be the #1 reason there!

What I'm saying is that except for a few high xp quests there's literally NO reason to run any difficulty in Epics OTHER than EE!

You want "Lesser" Players to stay out of EEs so you can get the Devs to beef up those EEs to cater to those who want Challenge?
Well the first thing to do is make d@mn sure there's a REASON {other than you're not capable of running EE! Because we all know that there's not a single player in DDO who can't pike an EE Completion of every quest at least once!} to run the other difficulties!

Challenge is a great reason to run EE's. Bigger XP, Favor, and Loot should also be a part of it. Running the best gets you the best. There is no simpler way for me to put it. To be perfectly honest the levels of XP/Favor/Loot are not that rigid to where you absolutely need to run the best to be good enough and have fun. There are very few Favor Rewards that can only be gotten thru Elite everything, and as history has shown that is for the early birds. Remember how PDK Favor to hit 375 required most done on EE, well now we have more PDK quests meaning you no longer need to.

There currently are a couple reasons to run difficulties other than EE. Speed is most likely the number one reason. Behind that might be loot, especially for those wanting to do ETRs. If I want a +3 Wis Tor Helm, I'd rather it be EN or EH so I can equip it sooner as the +3 stat is more important to me rather than the colored slot. Same thing with Skullduggery Kit and Shadowsight, other pieces of gear that I personally wanted lower versions of so I can use them sooner. There is also 1st time run xp. Sure I got some laughs my way when I ran Storm Horns on EN but it was 1st time xp and super fast at that.

There are reasons to run other difficulties.

I also do not want "Lesser" players to stay out of EE's to move any other agenda. I do, however, want those players that cannot currently run EEs to not complain until the difficulty gets watered down to their level and would rather those players either accept the fact they cannot and/or will not run those difficulties or step up their game and get better.

Here's a fun and true story for you bro.

When the changes came to include EC-EE instead of old school just Epic I could not be in EE groups. My stable of characters were all ones that I would bring and tear the roof off the old Epics but in EE they all had flaws that made them unable to survive long, land spells, CC, etc. etc. I wasn't a new player trying to catch up and cross some divide between old vets or whatever. I went from being a player that could join any Epic, post and LFM and have it fill because my characters were good and I played them well to this new introduction and being "forced" to downgrade myself into an EH player.

This was a hit to my pride. But I realized it was only pride and nothing more. I didn't complain and make threads and post that EE should be easier. I just got better. I investigated what went wrong when I ran in higher difficulties, I found where flaws were, Fixed the flaws and got better. I wish more would do just that. If I can do it, anyone can.

[jalont]

You're making my point for me!

When XP is the ONLY incentive to run a quest then Turbine have failed!

When the ONLY incentive to run a quest on a lower difficulty is faster XP then Turbine have failed MISERABLY!

XP IS all that matters in DDO. That's the type of game this is. It's a casual, easy game where loot doesn't matter at all because everything is so easy. The only thing that matters is XP, and it is purposely designed that way. The goal is to get to level 28. Everything else is cosmetic in practice.