Saga XP/Renown and Epic Quests.

[FranOhmsford]

OK - I know this isn't going to go down well with some of you but hear me out:

Heroic True Elite giving the exact same renown bonus as Epic True Elite KILLS Epic Normal and Epic Hard!

Reducing Heroic Elite's renown bonuses {I don't know how the XP bonuses work because I've never taken XP as a reward but I assume it's the same!} isn't the answer as that hurts those of us who can't run EEs!

In the same vein - Boosting EE renown also cannot be the answer as that will widen the gap between those who can and those who can't to a chasm!


My Suggestion is to give EN/EH the exact same Renown {and XP} as Heroic True Elite while adding different {Possibly cosmetic only} rewards to Epic True Elite.


The advantages of this is that:
- more people get their chance to progress through Epic Normal and Hard rather than being forced to go straight to EE!
- Chains like the Demonweb actually have a reason to be run on something OTHER than EE!
- Guilds don't become High Level just because they have a couple of EE Capable Players taking renown while other Guilds languish!



About the Demonweb - Seriously... I have no ability to run EE and am forced to hope that a group pops up that I can tag along with!
I'm NEVER going to run EN or EH because there's absolutely NO reason for me to run EN or EH!
Even if I do complete an EN or EH I'm not going to hand in my Saga because that would equate not to a gain of renown but to a HUGE LOSS as I'd have to complete every other quest in the Saga a second time on EE + a second run of at least two of the three Demonweb quests!

I have no intention of ever running EE on any quest more than Once per life as there's literally only two reasons I'd ever step into EE {Favour for those quests that don't have an Heroic difficulty setting AND Saga Renown!}.

With Sagas resetting upon TR I don't even have the option to complete a Saga over multiple lives!


P.S. I have not one but TWO Epic characters who are stuck needing to complete 2 EE Demonweb quests to complete their Sagas before TRing!
I managed to get EVERY other EE Saga quest run but CANNOT find a Group for these because those who can run them on EE don't put groups up and don't join groups put up by those of us who need help!

[Enoach]

This is a view of the saga system that does appear to be shared by a number of players. Honestly I use to share the must have EE sagas until I came to some realizations.

1. Saga rewards are bonuses.
Looking at a them as a loss between Elite Completion and True Elite Completion can drive a person to sadness because they measure the difference as a loss. But if you look at it as a bonus instead as well as the speed in which you can complete. In this case Fran the speed at which you are completing EE is 0, but I imagine EN/EH would be faster.

2. Prepping mentality
I use to be one that prepped all sagas before I did an ER so that I could start at Level 23 afterwards. I came to realize that this was causing me to miss out on other epic quests and became repetitive. I have changed how I do this now. I turn in sagas when I complete them, If I have any to turn in when I'm 28 I will save them. I know only run enough quests to have seeds to ER.

I understand OP that you see these differently and I saw them in the same way that you did at the start. But I have felt freer since I changed my focus and only point this out so that you may also see an alternative to how you view saga rewards.

[Impaqt]

um...

Nobody wants to join your EE LFMs... and you never want to run anything other than EE, so you think the way to fix that is to make EN, EH and HE more attractive?


I cant make out any logic here...

[FranOhmsford]

This is a view of the saga system that does appear to be shared by a number of players. Honestly I use to share the must have EE sagas until I came to some realizations.

1. Saga rewards are bonuses.
Looking at a them as a loss between Elite Completion and True Elite Completion can drive a person to sadness because they measure the difference as a loss. But if you look at it as a bonus instead as well as the speed in which you can complete. In this case Fran the speed at which you are completing EE is 0, but I imagine EN/EH would be faster.

This only makes sense IF you're capable of Soloing EH {EN gets you basically nothing with how Saga rewards are worked out!}.

For someone like me who needs a group for EH then the EE Saga is indeed Faster! {As I'm going to want EE anyway for the Favour!}.
I'm not going to run these quests more than once per life no matter what!

2. Prepping mentality
I use to be one that prepped all sagas before I did an ER so that I could start at Level 23 afterwards. I came to realize that this was causing me to miss out on other epic quests and became repetitive. I have changed how I do this now. I turn in sagas when I complete them, If I have any to turn in when I'm 28 I will save them. I know only run enough quests to have seeds to ER.

I understand OP that you see these differently and I saw them in the same way that you did at the start. But I have felt freer since I changed my focus and only point this out so that you may also see an alternative to how you view saga rewards.

If Sagas didn't give Renown I wouldn't even bother with them!

I don't need to gain XP fast - In fact I'm currently running a character through an E-TR on nothing but Slayers!


As for prepping Sagas - I prep the Epic ones yes but only because I'm only going to complete each of these once per life!
In the meantime I farm Heroic GH and Heroic 3BC for my Renown!

Why should I be forced to farm Heroic GH and Heroic 3BC massively overlevel just to have a steady renown gain?

Wouldn't it be better if I had the choice to gain that renown while running AT LEVEL quests {EE is not AT LEVEL!}?

Wouldn't it be better if I could farm EN Sagas rather than having to farm Heroic Elites?
BUT
EN takes twice the time of an Heroic Elite and unless I also run some EH/EEs I don't even get anything for my trouble!

[FranOhmsford]

um...

Nobody wants to join your EE LFMs... and you never want to run anything other than EE, so you think the way to fix that is to make EN, EH and HE more attractive?


I cant make out any logic here...

I never said to make HE more attractive - Them's your words not mine!


As for EN and EH - Hell yes they should be made more attractive!
There's literally no reason to ever run Demonweb, Schindylrynn or King's Forest on anything other than EE!
Gianthold, High Road, Stormhorns, 3BC and Wheloon have Heroic options!
Even when you take the Epic only Sagas for the quests with Heroic options you come back to the fact that there's literally no reason to run them on anything other than EE!

OK so some E-GH quests get added to the EN/EH Daily runs BUT that's not enough to make the difference - In fact even when I do run dailies I stick around only for Spies, Wiz King, VoN 3/4 and OoB!
If I'm going to be running E-GH it's gotta be for more than just a bit more XP!

[FranOhmsford]

IF the only reason to run a quest is XP then the Devs have failed!

And that there is the biggest problem with DDO's difficulty settings as things stand - Elite gives more XP yes but lesser difficulties give NOTHING BUT XP!

[Impaqt]

I never said to make HE more attractive - Them's your words not mine!

wel, you were not exactly clear on that point... I still cannot make out what exactly you want to accomplish here.

As for EN and EH - Hell yes they should be made more attractive!
There's literally no reason to ever run Demonweb, Schindylrynn or King's Forest on anything other than EE!
Gianthold, High Road, Stormhorns, 3BC and Wheloon have Heroic options!
Even when you take the Epic only Sagas for the quests with Heroic options you come back to the fact that there's literally no reason to run them on anything other than EE!

OK so some E-GH quests get added to the EN/EH Daily runs BUT that's not enough to make the difference - In fact even when I do run dailies I stick around only for Spies, Wiz King, VoN 3/4 and OoB!
If I'm going to be running E-GH it's gotta be for more than just a bit more XP!

IF the only reason to run a quest is XP then the Devs have failed!

And that there is the biggest problem with DDO's difficulty settings as things stand - Elite gives more XP yes but lesser difficulties give NOTHING BUT XP!

Is your contention that the only reason to run any quest int he game is XP or Renown? The only reason to do Sagas is to get EE Renown bonus?

renown means nothing in this game anymore. all the "accomplishments" were done long ago.

how about having fun? isnt that a good enough reason to run something anymore?

[General_Gronker]

I have no ability to run EE

"Change it because I'm not willing to do the work to reap the rewards!!!!"

Yeah, no thanks.

[Enoach]

It appears for you the issue is Renown and your question of why a system that was designed to reward something done at level but is open to doing overlevel rewards more done over level then at level in regards to renown.

As you pointed out

Normal/Epic Normal - 5K
Hard/Epic Hard - 7.5 K
Elite/Epic Elite - 10 K
True Elite/Epic True Elite - 15 K

You find that redoing Heroic Saga for True Elite is faster and more rewarding since it is 3x the amount of doing Epic Normal, 2x the Amount of Epic Hard and 1/3 better then doing Epic Elite.

And because the Demonweb is an Epic Only and you presently are not able to get a group for EE for these quests you have 2 characters stuck.

Personally I think the Renown is set at these points so that all play styles can be enjoyed but also not leave these different play styles so far separated in Guild Renown earnings. Now as you pointed out this does open the system up for Over level Guild renown earnings but this is usually done at a sacrifice of character development (XP earned and Loot).

In the end I don't see the renown set the same based on completion level as a problem.

I'm sorry that you currently are having trouble with getting an EE completion on the Demonweb quests. I rather enjoy these 3 quests myself. Outside of getting a core guild group to run with and being patient with your LFM or even taking it slowly in these quests I'm not sure what other advice to give you.

[DeWind]

VIP? use your free quest to finish the Saga...or if it is that important...What...only 5-6 Astral Shards to finish it on EE? There are options out there and you can decide what is best spent for your time and energy.

But more importantly, as mentioned above, Play for Fun...Enjoy.

[FranOhmsford]

wel, you were not exactly clear on that point... I still cannot make out what exactly you want to accomplish here.





Is your contention that the only reason to run any quest int he game is XP or Renown? The only reason to do Sagas is to get EE Renown bonus?

renown means nothing in this game anymore. all the "accomplishments" were done long ago.

That depends on the Player!

Now of course you're going to say that EVERY possible reason is going to depend on the Player but obviously some reasons are far stronger and wanted by far more people than others.
For Example: Seemingly everyone in game apart from myself can't get enough of MOAR XP!

how about having fun? isnt that a good enough reason to run something anymore?

If I want to have "fun" I'm hardly going to choose Demonweb am I?

In fact I don't tend to have any "fun" running any quests in DDO past Lvl 10! - Most of the actual "fun" quests are old and low level!

I'm having trouble thinking of a SINGLE Epic quest I consider to be "fun" even on EN!


P.S. It's hardly a binary choice between just XP and Renown!

Loot, Favour, "fun" all come into it and yes some quests are more "fun" for a given value of "fun" than others {I personally wouldn't ever run any of the Demonweb quests ever again if it wasn't for Favour {in a few more months even that may be superfluous} and Saga Renown!


Favour - I'm at 4,982 now thanks to ToEE and have run all but 3 quests/raids in the game on at least Normal! {99% of those on Elite!} - If I ran an EH Brothers of the Forge I wouldn't even need to touch FotP or Deathwyrm and wouldn't need EE CitW or FoT or EH MoD or Haunted Halls!
And that's now!
The time is coming when even Favour won't be enough to get me to run EE Demonweb!

That leaves only the Saga as a valid reason for me to run these truly "unfun" quests!

And as I don't give a Monkey's about XP! What Loot? And the EH Saga reward is so much less than True Elite There's STILL absolutely no reason to run anything other than EE!



Finally - I'll say this again because you clearly didn't get it:

Loot is not a valid reason to run anything other than Elite!
Favour is not a valid reason to run anything other than Elite!
Renown is not a valid reason to run anything other than Elite! {Especially in Epics as you literally get NONE! unless you run EE!}.
"Fun" is completely subjective!

Literally the ONLY reason to ever run any quest on anything other than Elite/EE is XP!
You don't get as much XP but you still get XP!

When XP is the ONLY reason to run a quest the Devs have failed in their Duty to the Players!

[FranOhmsford]

VIP? use your free quest to finish the Saga...or if it is that important...What...only 5-6 Astral Shards to finish it on EE? There are options out there and you can decide what is best spent for your time and energy.

But more importantly, as mentioned above, Play for Fun...Enjoy.

There's 3 Demonweb quests and even with both VIP and AS I can only skip two of them!

Yes one Saga would allow me to skip all 3 but the other won't!

Plus one character has skipped Belly and the other has skipped the Well {So I have no choice but to complete two of the Demonweb quests!}.


If I could skip all three Demonweb quests and still complete my Saga you can be certain that I would already have done so!

It wouldn't have stopped me from creating this thread though!
As this thread is about more than simply my inability to get an EE Completion of two quests!

It's about the inequities of a system that vastly discourages running EN or EH!

[jalont]

The point of EN and EH is so people can learn quests. Just like the point of HN and HH is for people to learn quests. That's obviously how Turbine wants it because they keep removing any challenge from Elite. You've been playing entirely too long to not be able to run EE. I just don't believe that you "can't". It's literally impossible unless you've gimped yourself on purpose.

[FranOhmsford]

"Change it because I'm not willing to do the work to reap the rewards!!!!"

Yeah, no thanks.

Funny.

And not what I said!

I've done the Work!

I've put up the LFGs and waited and waited!
I've JOINED LFGs put up by others who needed these quests and waited and waited!

There's a difference between being willing to join a group and being ABLE to SOLO!
Unfortunately those able to solo are even less willing to join a group than I am!
Simply because they have NO NEED to join a group!

[FranOhmsford]

The point of EN and EH is so people can learn quests. Just like the point of HN and HH is for people to learn quests. That's obviously how Turbine wants it because they keep removing any challenge from Elite. You've been playing entirely too long to not be able to run EE. I just don't believe that you "can't". It's literally impossible unless you've gimped yourself on purpose.

The problem here is one of degree!

I can probably do OK in EEs IN A FULL GROUP!

But I most certainly couldn't Solo an EE {ANY EE!}.

I can solo an EH VoN 3 now {on a lvl 25+ character} in a reasonable amount of time BUT wouldn't even stand a chance in EH Haunted Halls Solo!


As for learning quests - Again, Where's the incentive?
If I have to run E-Demonweb on EN 20 times and on EH 20 times more then I'm not running quests I actually enjoy!
I'm not gaining any useful Loot {Unless I get Lucky!}
I'm not gaining any Favour or Renown {Epic Normal quests are atrocious for Renown!}
The XP is a non-issue for me!
AND
I'm not gaining experience that will help me run EE Demonweb!

The difference between EH and EE is simply that BIG!

[jalont]

The difference between EH and EE is simply that BIG!

It isn't anymore though. Have you tried running EE since the armor changes and the buff to classes? You're certainly pigeonholed into certain types of builds, but that's always been the case. I know different servers are different, and I know some don't pug EE for some reason. It almost sounds like you're just sick of the game and have ran out of reasons to play. Perhaps it's time to take a month or so break.

[Impaqt]

If I didnt have fun playing a game... I would not not play that game.


If its all about Renown for some reason. and Not doing epic elite winds up netting you ZERO renown, and doing a quick normal run would get you 10,000 Renown, which is more efficient?


If you cannot obtain the max reward, perhaps you should settle for a lesser one?

[TrinityTurtle]

Why should I be forced to farm Heroic GH and Heroic 3BC massively overlevel just to have a steady renown gain?

Hm...the devil is in the details. Since they changed the heroic sagas a while ago and you can only do them once per toons life, there is no 'farming heroic massively overlevel for steady renown gain' and hasn't been for a while. So not only are you not forced to (and you wouldn't be forced to if you could, any renown from saga is extra on top of what you do, and you get the amount you earn, you can choose to play at your level and take in the rewards as you earn them), it's not really even physically possible. Especially if you did the quests for the saga at level while you were leveling up, which most do. Heroic saga xp only means you have to farm more quests for favor if you want to earn favor rewards/tp for no experience, players lose nothing not taking the xp while leveling unless they've created some sort of race.

EE is hard work. I spent years improving my game skills and toons to run in it. Because I wanted the rewards. It wasn't Turbine's jobs to make the same rewards available to me as the people who put in the work without me working on improving my end, it was my job.

The original idea of this thread just reads "I don't want to make any changes, therefor, the game has to change to suit me even though other players enjoy it the way it is, and I shouldn't have to improve myself to earn the rewards".

[FranOhmsford]

Hm...the devil is in the details. Since they changed the heroic sagas a while ago and you can only do them once per toons life, there is no 'farming heroic massively overlevel for steady renown gain' and hasn't been for a while.

Wrong - You can still run Heroic GH as many times as you like!

You can still run an Heroic 3BC every 4 days!

If I had the money to buy Superior Renown Pots my Guild would be 150+ by now and I'd be thoroughly fed up of GH!

As it is I can barely stand to run GH more than once per week any more after getting to Lvl 95 on the few Renown Pots I had available!

EE is hard work. I spent years improving my game skills and toons to run in it. Because I wanted the rewards. It wasn't Turbine's jobs to make the same rewards available to me as the people who put in the work without me working on improving my end, it was my job.

You already had multiple Lvl 20 characters pre MotU.

You were already at the top when the game changed and continued to remain at the top through each subsequent change!

For those of us who continue to play catch up the chasm has widened!

The original idea of this thread just reads "I don't want to make any changes, therefor, the game has to change to suit me even though other players enjoy it the way it is, and I shouldn't have to improve myself to earn the rewards".

Rubbish!

That's not what it reads at all but what you are reading into it!

I've made plenty of changes over the years and will continue to make changes however I'm just asking for some realization from the Devs {and from players like you} that the gap has become too wide!

There can't be only one way to play the game!
We must have Choices!
AND
Forcing People to Play EE and Only EE is the OPPOSITE of Choice!

Let's say I take people's "advice" in this thread and run Demonweb Solo on EN 20 times followed by Solo on EH 20 times and even then when I step into EE I get killed by the first mob!
What do I do?
I put up a Group and no-one joins!
What do I do?
I only ran these quests on EN and EH in the first place to LEARN them so I could run EE but I'm literally NEVER going to be able to Solo EE so whatever happens I'll still need a group!
I don't even LIKE these quests!
They're not "fun" now and certainly won't be "fun" the 41st time through!


You get nothing for running EN or EH other than XP!

If getting a group for EE is difficult then how difficult do you think it is to get a group for EN or EH? - I'll tell you how - IMPOSSIBLE!

If the quest isn't "fun" and doesn't offer any tangible rewards on that difficulty then why am I gonna run it?



Now - People have complained for years {incl. me} that Elite has become the Default. And we mistakenly conflated that strictly with XP.
I've come to realize that XP is actually the LEAST of reasons to run Elite!
If all I wanted was XP I'd never step in an Elite quest ever again!

The Elite amongst us will always want their top difficulty to give the best rewards BUT other difficulties cannot be as far behind as they are now!

And when it comes to Sagas - Obviously the rewards are so large already that pushing Epic True Elite up so as to make the other Epic Renown rewards better would be a mistake!
On the other hand - Reducing the rewards for Heroic True Elite {and lesser Heroic rewards} would also be a mistake.

So - I simply ask for Epic True Elite to be given new {different and possibly cosmetic only} rewards for those who want the Challenge AND the bragging power!
While also upgrading the Lesser Epic Saga rewards to the same as Heroic Elite to show that YES these ARE more difficult {and time consuming} to complete!

[FranOhmsford]

If I didnt have fun playing a game... I would not not play that game.


If its all about Renown for some reason. and Not doing epic elite winds up netting you ZERO renown, and doing a quick normal run would get you 10,000 Renown, which is more efficient?


If you cannot obtain the max reward, perhaps you should settle for a lesser one?

Again - You're simply not getting my point!

No matter what happens I'm ONLY going to run these quests ONCE each life!

So... Having run every other quest in the saga on EE and knowing that I'm currently in no rush to TR {Heck I'm pretty much at the start of a 4th ETR} why would I complete the Saga on anything other than True Elite?

IF I still haven't completed those two EE Demonweb quests having done every ETR and being Lvl 30 then maybe then I'll say screw it and run them on EH or EN but that's a long way off!

Whether I get EE Demonweb done today or in 6 months time it will still be the exact same renown gain!
Completing those two sagas with EN runs of those two demonweb quests now would be a net renown LOSS!