Pally Sun Elf Question

[CPDK9]

No responses in the Iconic Forum, so I'll try here.

Does anyone know if the sun elf mace/maul enhancement line is worthwhile? I had thought about a pure pally using mauls with KotC capstone, but not sure if its epic worthy and worth the LH+1 expenditure. I'll need to get through epic levels with a Sun Elf build. Part of the reason is a Fury of Flame (BtA) maul one of my toons acquired and looking for a good use. If not maul, would mace/morning star with vanguard be any more effective. I do have access to Phosphor or Coronation, but really wanted to save that for a Deathnip build.

Also, I wonder why the maul was not placed in the exotic category and a one-handed weapon like P&P version. I think it would be nice to have an exotic bludge option.

[unbongwah]

Does anyone know if the sun elf mace/maul enhancement line is worthwhile?

Only if you don't have anything better to spend your APs on.

[CPDK9]

Thanks

[Doutrinador]

Only if you don't have anything better to spend your APs on.

+ 8 damage is good/ not ?

[unbongwah]

+ 8 damage is good/ not ?

Sure, +8 dmg is always welcome; the question is what's the opportunity cost? I.e., if you spend 18 APs on ML tree for max Weap Training and Skill (+3% doublestrike seems like a no-brainer for 1 more AP), what are you NOT taking from your other PrEs instead? Implicit in that is the presumption you wouldn't spend 18 APs in your racial tree if you got more bang-for-your-buck spending those APs on other enhancements instead. Which is the central premise of this thread; namely the racial trees are either too weak or too expensive relative to what you can get from the class PrEs, esp. for those classes which have been significantly improved in the last few updates.

[kgoodson3]

Which is the central premise of this thread; namely the racial trees are either too weak or too expensive relative to what you can get from the class PrEs, esp. for those classes which have been significantly improved in the last few updates.

Thread derail...unbongwah...what do you consider the best melee going these days?

[CPDK9]

Sure, +8 dmg is always welcome; the question is what's the opportunity cost? I.e., if you spend 18 APs on ML tree for max Weap Training and Skill (+3% doublestrike seems like a no-brainer for 1 more AP), what are you NOT taking from your other PrEs instead? Implicit in that is the presumption you wouldn't spend 18 APs in your racial tree if you got more bang-for-your-buck spending those APs on other enhancements instead. Which is the central premise of this thread; namely the racial trees are either too weak or too expensive relative to what you can get from the class PrEs, esp. for those classes which have been significantly improved in the last few updates.

If I go THF, I'd be spending say 42 pts in KotC, 18 in racial, and 20 in SD compared to about 42 pts vangaurd and left over between SD and KotC. The million dollar question is do all the hit & damage bonuses from KotC & racial tree make up for all shield bonuses and the 20% attack speed? I have a feeling the answer will be that loss of attack speed is too large to make up for in other areas.

[unbongwah]

Thread derail...unbongwah...what do you consider the best melee going these days?

If we're talking pure melee DPS, then probably pure barb like Zoda and Red Sonja 2.0 or pure pally. Swashbucklers are still pretty strong, though. I haven't figured out yet whether the rogue improvements are enough to put them back in the top-DPS category again.

If I go THF, I'd be spending say 42 pts in KotC, 18 in racial, and 20 in SD compared to about 42 pts vangaurd and left over between SD and KotC.

On a THF/TWF/SWF pure pally, I would want at least 41 APs into KotC (T5s, capstone) and 24 APs into SD (Swift Defense, Gtr Defensive Stance bonuses), leaving only 15 APs for other things. That's 3 APs shy of what I would need to max Weap Training + Skill, so I'd probably drop the T4 Gtr Defensive Stance to squeeze it in.

[Ralmeth]

If I go THF, I'd be spending say 42 pts in KotC, 18 in racial, and 20 in SD compared to about 42 pts vangaurd and left over between SD and KotC. The million dollar question is do all the hit & damage bonuses from KotC & racial tree make up for all shield bonuses and the 20% attack speed? I have a feeling the answer will be that loss of attack speed is too large to make up for in other areas.

If you're comparing / considering Vanguard then you're missing the #1 best thing in Vanguard, which is your ability to stun the %&@!& out of enemies, left and right, once you pick up the capstone (before that you should still have Stunning Blow and Stunning Shield clicky attacks). Getting a 50% bonus to DPS vs. a stunned mob while they can't strike back for 6 seconds is pretty darned awesome, and works wonders against Champions. You do have to work at your DCs, but if you do then this makes Vanguard the strongest tree IMHO for a pure Paladin, once you get to 20th level.

*Edit: Also, you're probably going to have hardly any APs left over for the racial tree, as there are too many good things to pick up in the KotC and Defender trees

[unbongwah]

*Edit: Also, you're probably going to have hardly any APs left over for the racial tree, as there are too many good things to pick up in the KotC and Defender trees

That's pretty much what I meant about opportunity costs. If you're playing a pure Vanguard, you'll want almost all of your APs to go into pally PrEs: e.g., 41 APs Vanguard, 13-24 APs in SD, with the rest going into KotC and (if human) a pt or 3 for racial Dmg Boost and maybe heal amp. OTOH, a pure DPS pally skips Vanguard and only cares about KotC & SD; and SD is mostly "just" a survivability tree (you invest what you think you need to stay alive with maybe +6 STR as a perk), so it's easier to find APs to spare for your racial tree. It's not like pure barbs, who want 41 APs into FB and 36+ APs into Ravager, leaving virtually nothing left over for other trees.

[Ralmeth]

That's pretty much what I meant about opportunity costs. If you're playing a pure Vanguard, you'll want almost all of your APs to go into pally PrEs: e.g., 41 APs Vanguard, 13-24 APs in SD, with the rest going into KotC and (if human) a pt or 3 for racial Dmg Boost and maybe heal amp. OTOH, a pure DPS pally skips Vanguard and only cares about KotC & SD; and SD is mostly "just" a survivability tree (you invest what you think you need to stay alive with maybe +6 STR as a perk), so it's easier to find APs to spare for your racial tree. It's not like pure barbs, who want 41 APs into FB and 36+ APs into Ravager, leaving virtually nothing left over for other trees.

Yeah, I knew what you meant, and agree exactly