Make Half-Elf dilettante feats relevant

[Coyopa]

I was thinking about when some of my characters were half-elves yesterday and I was thinking about why they aren't anymore. (No, looks aren't factor in why they aren't.) I realized that the dilettante feats just don't really offer anything and are kind of expensive, even though they're more or less a "free" feat. (Assuming you're not comparing them to humans, when it's actually the loss of a feat.) The idea I had is this: Why not instead of making only Arcane Archer available to half-elves, change it so that half-elves can get access to a class tree of their choice based upon their dilettante feat. For example, if a half-elf has the cleric dilettante feat, then they could choose to access one of: Divine Disciple, Radiant Servant, or Warpriest trees. This could give some interesting new build options and makes the dilettante feat really do something for the character.

Obviously, the half-elf racial tree would need to be updated, but it really needs an overhaul anyway. So, while they're doing that (whenever they happen to get around to it), it would be "easy" (as in, that's the logical time) to add this in. It shouldn't be over-powered because the player still has to purchase access to the extra tree and they can only choose one. Right now, the dilettante feats are only really useful if you take fighter (for access to all martial weapons), artificer (for the boost to UMD), ranger (for access to bows), and maybe rogue. Most of the rest are not useful (and I know many would argue that even the ones I listed aren't that useful).

Anyway, something to think about. I think it would add a great deal of character building options. (It would be nice to be able to learn other races' dances, too, because humans suck at dancing and it's kind of fun watching a half-elf Ken doll do the splits.)

[Rofaust]

Cool idea. I assume you would still need to invest in the half elf racial tree to get tiers 1-5 on your dilettante tree? With the feat like it is you would count as say a 1st level cleric for spellcasting purposes and then only be able to choose from tier 1 on the dilettante tree until you increase your cleric level via helf tree? Because full unrestricted access to any one tree would be really sweet but seems like it would be unbalanced.

[unbongwah]

By all means, let's get some Swashbuckling HE pallies going!

[Hafeal]

I am all for something like this as an update to the half-elf. Put it on the list, Sev!

[Coyopa]

Cool idea. I assume you would still need to invest in the half elf racial tree to get tiers 1-5 on your dilettante tree? With the feat like it is you would count as say a 1st level cleric for spellcasting purposes and then only be able to choose from tier 1 on the dilettante tree until you increase your cleric level via helf tree? Because full unrestricted access to any one tree would be really sweet but seems like it would be unbalanced.

I was thinking it would work like the elven arcane archer in that it would be level gated the same as that tree. So, you wouldn't get access to the cores at the usual 3/6/12/18/20. Otherwise, getting access would work like it currently does. I know this could be kind of powerful and so perhaps the cost to unlock should stay the same. However, when you choose half-elf, you're giving up the free human feat and extra skill point, and right now you don't get much in return. Worse, the dilettante feats are basically meaninglessness. Also, to get the dilettante feat you have to somewhat invest in the relevant ability score, which may or may not have much synergy with your overall build.

[General_Gronker]

I realized that the dilettante feats just don't really offer anything

Flawed premise undermines your point.

[Coyopa]

Flawed premise undermines your point.

Please enlighten me, then. I am genuinely interested to hear a differing perspective. I can't really see anyone actually investing a lot into the dilettante enhancements. The feats by themselves really don't offer much, in my opinion. Certainly not enough to get me to choose half-elf over ... well ... any other race. I suppose if you want access to cure wands, then maybe cleric or favored soul dilettante could be helpful. I just can't see someone actually choosing that over investing in UMD, instead. So, yes, I am definitely interested in hearing an opposing opinion.

[LuKaSu]

Please enlighten me, then. I am genuinely interested to hear a differing perspective. I can't really see anyone actually investing a lot into the dilettante enhancements. The feats by themselves really don't offer much, in my opinion. Certainly not enough to get me to choose half-elf over ... well ... any other race. I suppose if you want access to cure wands, then maybe cleric or favored soul dilettante could be helpful. I just can't see someone actually choosing that over investing in UMD, instead. So, yes, I am definitely interested in hearing an opposing opinion.

I think the issue came from the focus on Epics. When people consider Epics to be The Game, and level 20 to be the start of the game, UMD became the universal alternative to Helven dilettantes. When our focus is in heroics, however, those helf feats are still quite powerful. To give a monk the ability to use raise dead scrolls? To give Paladins the usage of all arcane buff wands? To let rogues wand-cure their parties, with no chance of failure? Those are all pretty nice usages for the helf feats. But once everyone has UMD, the advantages become less apparent.

While I would be for the concept of having racially-unlocked enhancement trees (horcs unlocking ravager, halflings unlocking acrobat, dwarves unlocking Defenders, WFs unlocking Kensai, and drow unlocking tempest, helves and elves unlocking arcane archer), I wouldn't want to give one race the ability to unlock whichever tree they wanted. Too much chance for overpowered synergies.

However, perhaps there could be a variation on the original theme. Perhaps a dilletante could unlock a skill as a class skill. You could pick one class skill from your feat-ed class and make it a class skill. Or even just make that one skill still a cross-class, but be as though you had taken one level, so the cap is higher than before. Your paladin could now have UMD from its bard dilettante. Your monk could unlock the heal skill from his cleric feat. One of the quickest synergies would be the pure ranger who can now be a trapper as well using his rogue feat. But when it comes down to it, that's not super crazy overpowering. For all skills but Open Lock, Disable Device, maybe another one that I can't think of, it's basically just raising your potential for a single skill by 12 or so skill points. Again, it's not game-breakingly overpowered, but min-maxers would have reason to consider using the helf now.

[nibel]

I think the best way to make the dilettante feats worth any salt again is to making the "improved dilettante" into the Half-elf core enhancements. But I like your idea about making them have access to one of their dilettante's enhancement trees.

[ssgcmwatson]

I am all for something like this as an update to the half-elf. Put it on the list, Sev!

^^^ What he said. /signed

[Enderoc]

I would agree skills rather than enhancement trees would be of benefit in dillies. Also if you choose a skill focus as a feat that is not normally a class skill, it should also be considered a class skill from the point the feat was taken. For example a paladin that takes UMD as a skill focus at level one should from level one upwards would need only to invest one point to raise one point of UMD, if he takes the feat at level 3, from level 3 you should be able to invest 4 ranks and one per level thereafter. Yes then you could have pure Palemaster with heal maxxed or even a ranger with disable device or open locks. (possibly because you would be considered a level one rogue with Helf dilly, otherwise yeah technical rogue skills should be trained...but using the rogue dilly and the skill focus for DD or OL should negate that. Which in essence would allow you to make a ranger trapper. )