Monk Elemental Stances pass

[Delacroix21]

I'll respond to this in detail later (on my cell) but why did you add a DC penalty to the Water stance?

Also requiring 6 Monk for GM of Forms is a little much I'd say making it an Epic feat is more than enough to make it a hard decision.

Lastly the Stat requirements are ridiculous, this is how it used to be and it was removed for a reason

I kinda overlooked that, and have to agree with you there.


Sure these stances are great, but I dont think we need to heavily punish multiclasses from picking them up as they allready have a built in balancing factor= being centered. Being centered locks you out of a ton of good weapons, off-hand items if SWF, some cool armors etc. So I believe that is balance enough.

[nibel]

I'll respond to this in detail later (on my cell) but why did you add a DC penalty to the Water stance?

The penalty to spell DC is to prevent easy monk dip to get +wisdom on wis-based casters.

Just notice that you still end up getting +1 DC at Master, and +2 DC at grandmaster.

Also requiring 6 Monk for GM of Forms is a little much I'd say making it an Epic feat is more than enough to make it a hard decision.

Lastly the Stat requirements are ridiculous, this is how it used to be and it was removed for a reason

The stat requirement was also into the monk enhancements, which forced all monks at the time to spend half their APs only to max out the stances (in addition to the stat requirements). It was so ingrained in the monk enhancements that when they removed it, and instead added them to the monk leveling table, the only way you could spend your first 8 AP in monk was on skill bonus and racial enhancements.

Yet, at that time, enhancend elemental stances were monk-only. If you wanted the third tier earth stance, you had no choice but go Monk 12.

When they added the option to select the adept/master/GM feats, IMO, they went too easy on it: Only required the same level as monks get them for free, and nothing else. That's why I raised both the level requirement (monks get them for free and earlier), and the stat requirement.

However, I did made some math to respond you, and noticed that you can't achieve enough stats to get GM without tomes. I'll drop them to 13/15/17, and it will be viable with a single +2 tome in a 32-pts build (and no tome on 36).

I think you have something there. How about: +5/10/15/20% damage to helpless enemies and 5/10/15/20 fort bypass (to give the stance some utility vs red names as the DCs and bonus helpless damage go out the window).

There is a good bunch of DC-based monk effects that DO work on bosses. All the good ones are tucked in the dark path, however.

IMO, if you don't have any good FM you want to use on bosses, you can just switch to a DPS stance (fire or air) when fighting a boss. If the boss lasts for more than a full attack chain, it is worth the time switching stances. Specially if you know what is ahead and can switch on the move.

It is just how I envision the stances. If you want DPS, you are either on fire or air. If you want survivability, you go to earth. If you want something in between, go water. That's why I don't want to just tuck something DPS-based on water.

Maybe something like great xbows? On a vorpal attack, mob is knocked down?

[Failedlegend]

Just notice that you still end up getting +1 DC at Master, and +2 DC at grandmaster.

I assume your rolling the +Wis into that equation...just because you have monk levels doesn't mean your a Wis Based character...this addition makes Air Stance useless for ANY non-wis caster (ie. Monk/Wizards)

The stat requirements are ridiculous getting 17 BASE in one stat is annoying enough if you plan on using even 2 of the stances your likely wasting a good many build points and don;t even DREAM of using 3. It was removed because it was too limiting to builds.

Your ideas to improve the stances are awesome but your added restrictions just scream "I hate multi-classing" I'm not saying we shouldn't be careful (ie. I'm in favor of making Divine Grace more Pally level based) but swinging the pendulum to far the other way means we may as well remove the ability to do so...there's other games that do that way better.

BTW this is my simple thoughts on the stance themes

Fire: Damage
Air: Speed
Earth: Defense
Water: Utility

[Munkenmo]

The stat requirement was also into the monk enhancements, which forced all monks at the time to spend half their APs only to max out the stances (in addition to the stat requirements). It was so ingrained in the monk enhancements that when they removed it, and instead added them to the monk leveling table, the only way you could spend your first 8 AP in monk was on skill bonus and racial enhancements.

In those days grandmaster also only required 18 points, not 19 points.

Back then even to get void 4, a monk only needed to get grandmaster in 1 tier and master in the other 3. Very few monks were capable of getting grandmaster in more than 2 lines.

I don't really care for or against a stat pre-req. I do kind of think that using up a feat to be in stance is enough nowdays, especially with the prr/mrr centered players are missing out on

The problem I have with this part of your proposal is that needing to have 19 build points in all 4 stats would make grandmaster of forms the most expensive feat in the game, and more expensive than the old enhancements ever used to be.
but if you're set on the stat pre-reqs something like : G. master 17, master 15, Adept 13 seems more reasonable.

[Delacroix21]

There is a good bunch of DC-based monk effects that DO work on bosses. All the good ones are tucked in the dark path, however.

IMO, if you don't have any good FM you want to use on bosses, you can just switch to a DPS stance (fire or air) when fighting a boss. If the boss lasts for more than a full attack chain, it is worth the time switching stances. Specially if you know what is ahead and can switch on the move.

It is just how I envision the stances. If you want DPS, you are either on fire or air. If you want survivability, you go to earth. If you want something in between, go water. That's why I don't want to just tuck something DPS-based on water.

Maybe something like great xbows? On a vorpal attack, mob is knocked down?

I assume dark you are talking about the triple dark finisher, which isn't much, now if they make the petal strikes scale with Melee power I can see a higher dc on them being usefull.


However one thing is clear: water stance is still missing something.As for the knockdown on vorp that's not the way to go, as it won't work on red named, and nearly everyone twists that from balanced attacks anyway.


How about monk strikes (elemental strikes, GMoF attacks, stunning fist, quivering Palm, henshin stuff, etc.) have a 5/10/15/20% reduced cooldown in water stance. That seems like a winner to me, as it will truly make this the monk "special move stance". It will also maybe make henshin a more attractive option besides just being a staff tree.

[nibel]

Small update based on feedback:

• Gave water stance Elemental Absorption and at GM, +Spell Resistance. This brings back some defensive benefits to Water, while the +DC gives it the edge on attack without stepping on the toes of fire/air stances.
• Changed Meditation of War to not have extra drawbacks. Capstone should then be buffed, but that is problem for another thread.
• Added my take on Jidz and Estar monk set.

Thanks everyone for the discussion thus far. I hope this made my suggestions more balanced.

[TeacherSyn]

I'm pondering all of this. Nice detail. I'll give my thoughts about it later. My first impression, however, is that it's overpowered. Being all about balance, the Monk often gains an advantage while something is necessarily taken away. I see more multi-selector, which isn't good or bad, but the selections seem only to switch out one advantage for another. There's also the matter of something breaking because of the nature of the class to consider.

Contrast your thoughts to something I posted in Suggestions and Ideas a little while ago. I don't want to react immediately to your idea; some are very good and I want to digest it a bit more. I've never been fond of the Shintao favoring Earth Stance, hated the removal of Void Strike and wanted a lesser trainable feat just to keep two finishers, really didn't like the Monk stances as trainable to non-Monks, and I'd love to see the Mystic gain more staff attack speed and defense.