this rogue pass just makes me wanna scream in frustration.

[CThruTheEgo]

You know what an assassin that gets caught is called? A murderer.
It's not how nimble you are that makes the class. It's how smart you are. Can you get away with murder over and over as a profession? Yes? Sneak in like a shadow, kill in a single stroke, sneak out like a ghost and nobody ever knows whodunit? We'll you're an assassin then. INT BASED.

Well, being all sneaky to get to the target does require dexterity. I mean, Stephen Hawking is pretty smart, but I can't see him sneaking around to murder someone. Know what I mean?

[Bluegirl_Two]

You know the great thing about this game is that it is based on D&D. You know what else, the really terrible thing about this game is that it is based on D&D. If you understand that then you understand both why INT is not an Assassin tree option and why it should be.

Observations about Wizard/Rogue synergy is misplaced since Assassinate DC did not change and is still based on rogue levels. Anyone trying to use Assassination on a L5 Rogue is probably going to be disappointed (takes 5 Rogue levels to get the T5 enhancement and Rogue/Wizard won't have that many Rogue levels; with only 5 levels any build that does won't have effective DCs in epic content so makes the selection pointless; getting INT to hit/damage via Harper has more synergy for better AP value than getting it with Rogue enhancement -- but, easy way to ensure that it isn't abused is to move it further along on the base enhancement line).

[coolpenguin410]

No. Please, no. I like my high dex halfing assassin just the way he is! I can max dex and still land assassinate reasonably well in combat.

[diodore]

Granted, starting a tree with dex in the first two cores then having the dcs in said tree based on int is just bipolar and silly. Most of us end up with wasted points since we go int anyways. Look at the warchanter tree's first core: skaldic rage is pure str but if the bard isn't str based he can take a point of con for 1 point. Assassins don't even begin to get such consideration.

Nicely put.

Look, why should selecting the first two cores of assassin be accompanied by the relief of not stepping in you-know-what-on-the-sidewalk (a trap for new players)?

[FranOhmsford]

You know the great thing about this game is that it is based on D&D. You know what else, the really terrible thing about this game is that it is based on D&D. If you understand that then you understand both why INT is not an Assassin tree option and why it should be.

I absolutely loathe 3rd Edition+ PnP and don't consider it D&D at all!

I still have trouble understanding why DDO made Disable Device an Int based Skill and would be very happy indeed if the Devs reworked Acrobat to allow for Dex to Disable.
I'd be even happier if they allowed Rogues to use Wisdom for Search or Int for Spot {either change would do!}. This could be added to a lower Tier of the Mechanic prestige so as to make it viable for all Rogues!

Now IF Disable worked off Dex I'd be quite happy for Mechs to get Dex to Dmg rather than Int but as things stand Dex to Dmg would make it much much harder to build a viable Mech!

As for Assassins - Absolutely they should get the option to use Int for Dmg!
It's knowing WHERE to stick the Knife that makes all the difference and that has absolutely NOTHING to do with Dex!

[Jetrule]

No. Please, no. I like my high dex halfing assassin just the way he is! I can max dex and still land assassinate reasonably well in combat.

Agreed I like my max dex halfling as well. He lands assassinate frequently enough for me. And he can still spend points for the racial healing. Stealth play dose go smothly with as high a assassinate score as possible. But it also helps to have the highest stealth possible and higher ac and dodge from a dex build. There are many monsters that cannot be assassinated my main tactic evolved to be sneaking by those I could and luring those I couldn't off one at a time where possible.

Is the main concern that when looking at kill counts in party your number is not as high as you would like? I have found dexbased assassin at least as viable for stealth play. Different goals have different demands I guess. When i do party up my kill count is low when I look at it and stealth play isnt much of a option with your average zerging party i suppose.

[diodore]

No. Please, no. I like my high dex halfing assassin just the way he is! I can max dex and still land assassinate reasonably well in combat.

Look, convince us. What, in numbers, does "reasonably well in combat" mean? Tell us why, as assassins, we shouldn't worry about maxing int at the expense of dex.

[Bluegirl_Two]

At 36 build points it is possible to go with 16 in each of INT, DEX and CON. You still have 6 build points to spend. The hardest decision is whether to spend those on STR or CHA or WIS instead of using them to max out one of the other stats. I can see arguments in favor of any of the choices.

The real reason for more DEX is GTWF and that is probably handled with tomes. Depending on the character I could see starting DEX as low as 14.

Needing DEX for sneak really isn't needed. There are lots of ways to boost sneak.

The real issue is a legacy in people's understanding of how Assassinate works and why there should be an INT focus rather than a DEX focus. The better solution is to make the to hit/damage enhancement a selectable one so that the player can choose which stat to use.

[Severlin]

We suggested making Assassinate use the better of Intelligence bonus or Dexterity bonus when determining its DC, but many players had concerns that it would remove choice. Their concern was a Dexterity based Assassin would be superior enough that there would be no reason to run an Intelligence based build. There were compelling arguments from players on both sides. It will be one of the things we will have to decide with our rogue follow up.

Sev~

[Erofen]

We suggested making Assassinate use the better of Intelligence bonus or Dexterity bonus when determining its DC, but many players had concerns that it would remove choice. Their concern was a Dexterity based Assassin would be superior enough that there would be no reason to run an Intelligence based build. There were compelling arguments from players on both sides. It will be one of the things we will have to decide with our rogue follow up.

Sev~

said this before and I will say it again...

go through with the plan for better of AND
1. add int to hit/damage with daggers and kukris in same core as its dex counterpart
2. add insightful reflexes to capstone

balance created, more options in building, not pigeonholed, win-win

[FranOhmsford]

We suggested making Assassinate use the better of Intelligence bonus or Dexterity bonus when determining its DC, but many players had concerns that it would remove choice. Their concern was a Dexterity based Assassin would be superior enough that there would be no reason to run an Intelligence based build. There were compelling arguments from players on both sides. It will be one of the things we will have to decide with our rogue follow up.

Sev~

No matter what you decide about To Hit and Dmg please please please give us the options to:

1) Use Dex for Disable Device {Acrobat Core 1!}.
and
2) Use Wis for Search {All the Awareness & Keen Senses Enhancements whether that be Mechanic, Arcane Archer or Racial!}.

[Dreppo]

We suggested making Assassinate use the better of Intelligence bonus or Dexterity bonus when determining its DC, but many players had concerns that it would remove choice. Their concern was a Dexterity based Assassin would be superior enough that there would be no reason to run an Intelligence based build. There were compelling arguments from players on both sides. It will be one of the things we will have to decide with our rogue follow up.

Sev~

Yes, please do revisit this idea. IMO a lot of those concerns we self-serving statements by players of INT-based assassins that were worried they might not remain superior. Even though the INT-based assassin would be completely unaffected by the change, they weren't happy with DEX-based potentially getting a buff. A lot of the INT-based proponents used this as an opportunity to see if they could get gratuitous buffs to INT to compensate. "Give us insightful reflexes for free", etc. Notice this started happening again in this thread immediately after you made your post.

Basically there two viewpoints:
1) There is a hard choice between DEX and INT by assassins now on live, so buffing DEX would eliminate choice.
2) INT is clearly preferred by assassins now on live, so buffing DEX would bring more choice.

I think it's obvious which viewpoint is closer to reality. Turbine is probably in a good position to back this up with data, by analyzing telemetry or the character databases.

To see whether allowing DEX for Assassinate would merely make DEX competitive or whether it would totally obsolete INT, it really has to be play-tested. It puzzles me why you dismissed the idea so quickly based on the early feedback, rather than putting it into a Lammannia build. This seems like precisely the type of change that needs to be evaluated over a period of time and can't be quickly decided using forum math" alone. Also, at the time we were discussing the proposal, the improvements to mechanic had not yet been announced, so synergies with the newly improved machanic tree (which favors INT) were not really discussed.

[ForgettableNPC]

Why not make it a Multi-Selector?

Like Different Tack in Swashbuckler Tree where you can use either Dex, Int, or Cha to damage, make the Assassin's Dex to damage Enhancement a multi-selector to let the players decide to whether to use Dex or Int to damage.

[diodore]

We suggested making Assassinate use the better of Intelligence bonus or Dexterity bonus when determining its DC, but many players had concerns that it would remove choice. Their concern was a Dexterity based Assassin would be superior enough that there would be no reason to run an Intelligence based build. There were compelling arguments from players on both sides. It will be one of the things we will have to decide with our rogue follow up.

Sev~

Yes, it was an epic discussion.

What do you think about the OP's proposal: to give assassins the choice of using int as their dagger-fighting stat?

[Mandelia]

We suggested making Assassinate use the better of Intelligence bonus or Dexterity bonus when determining its DC, but many players had concerns that it would remove choice. Their concern was a Dexterity based Assassin would be superior enough that there would be no reason to run an Intelligence based build. There were compelling arguments from players on both sides. It will be one of the things we will have to decide with our rogue follow up.

Sev~

You didn't give us a choice because it would remove choice? Wow.

I would be happy with a point in con instead like you give the warchanters.

[Angelic-council]

I kinda feel the pain.. It's just like FvS. They suppose to use charisma modifier to determine their spell DC, but we get wisdom instead. There is no 20 wis starter race in DDO and our tier 5 core grands charisma.

I know this is about rouges (non caster), but maybe there is a reason behind it? Just like how monks use wisdom, but also need DEX and STR.

Any critiques out there??

[Natashaelle]

We suggested making Assassinate use the better of Intelligence bonus or Dexterity bonus when determining its DC, but many players had concerns that it would remove choice. Their concern was a Dexterity based Assassin would be superior enough that there would be no reason to run an Intelligence based build. There were compelling arguments from players on both sides. It will be one of the things we will have to decide with our rogue follow up.

Why not just go all-out, and let peeps use their best stat, CON excluded ?

This wouldn't remove choice -- it would empower it. And an argument is easily made for every stat except CON to be a kwik kill method.

[coolpenguin410]

Look, convince us. What, in numbers, does "reasonably well in combat" mean? Tell us why, as assassins, we shouldn't worry about maxing int at the expense of dex.

No, because that's a silly request. Reasonably well means that I am not frustrated with the failure rate. I don't need to provide numbers because someone is going to come and twist my words, claim it's not viable for EE or will not land in X quest or Y mobs. It lands on the mobs I selectively target (aiming for low fort save mobs) when I can afford to do so.

That said, I don't play an assassin for the assassinate ability. I designed the character mostly for flavor. He was a knife specialist back before the current enhancement system, the assassin PrE was just 3 enhancements and the preferred assassin build dual wielded wounding rapiers of puncturing. Originally, he was strength based (yes, still a halfling) and did decent damage. Now he's dex based and does great damage.

You want the compelling argument? The current design supports multiple build types and versatility. Numbers cannot be used to support that but it doesn't mean that it isn't worth something. It means the entire character to me.

[slarden]

We suggested making Assassinate use the better of Intelligence bonus or Dexterity bonus when determining its DC, but many players had concerns that it would remove choice. Their concern was a Dexterity based Assassin would be superior enough that there would be no reason to run an Intelligence based build. There were compelling arguments from players on both sides. It will be one of the things we will have to decide with our rogue follow up.

Sev~

This would be true unless you made some slight modifications to the assassin tree
- Autogrant insightful reflexes in the capstone
- Make the assassin tree use the higher of int/dex for daggers/kukri attack/damage instead of just dex.

If you made these 2 changes the difference between dex/int builds isn't as significant. Without those 2 changes there is definitely no reason to ever choose int over dex.

[slarden]

Yes, please do revisit this idea. IMO a lot of those concerns we self-serving statements by players of INT-based assassins that were worried they might not remain superior. Even though the INT-based assassin would be completely unaffected by the change, they weren't happy with DEX-based potentially getting a buff. A lot of the INT-based proponents used this as an opportunity to see if they could get gratuitous buffs to INT to compensate. "Give us insightful reflexes for free", etc. Notice this started happening again in this thread immediately after you made your post.

Basically there two viewpoints:
1) There is a hard choice between DEX and INT by assassins now on live, so buffing DEX would eliminate choice.
2) INT is clearly preferred by assassins now on live, so buffing DEX would bring more choice.

I think it's obvious which viewpoint is closer to reality. Turbine is probably in a good position to back this up with data, by analyzing telemetry or the character databases.

To see whether allowing DEX for Assassinate would merely make DEX competitive or whether it would totally obsolete INT, it really has to be play-tested. It puzzles me why you dismissed the idea so quickly based on the early feedback, rather than putting it into a Lammannia build. This seems like precisely the type of change that needs to be evaluated over a period of time and can't be quickly decided using forum math" alone. Also, at the time we were discussing the proposal, the improvements to mechanic had not yet been announced, so synergies with the newly improved machanic tree (which favors INT) were not really discussed.

This is kind of a ridiculous assertion. Nobody is asking for a buff to int-based assassins - they are merely stating why dex would always be the superior choice if assassinate was the greater of dexterity or intelligence. The extra feat and 4 AP savings is just way to significant of an advantage to pass up. Beyond that the differences are small enough, but those 2 points are dealbreakers unless addressed as part of the change.