Demarch of Mask: Thief-Acrobat with a Divine Flourish.

[Andoris]

This build was created for U25 and with the changes to Rogue released in U25.2 and the heavy incentives to run 18 rogue, this build is now obsolete.




Build goals:

• High Trash DPS (AoE): Cleaves, Glancing Blows, Lay Waste, a Metric ton of Sneak Damage
• Respectable Boss DPS: High Fort Bypass (90%), Vulnerability Stacks (Smite weakness + 1st degree = 20 stacks quickly), Deception, decent single target DPS (3,500+)
• High Surviability -- it doesn't need to tank a Death Knight, but it should be able to stand toe to toe with one: 34% Dodge, 151 PRR, Improved Defensive Roll (proc @ 50%; 86% chance), Respectable HP, High healing amp, Solid saves
• Strong Rogue skills: DD: 97 | Search: 114 | OL: 104 | Bluff: 87 | UMD: 72
• Needs to be a Staff build (Intent was to play with the new TA tree)

Currently I have my level 27 feat open. A few contenders for that slot are: Epic Reflexes; Epic Fortitude, PRR? I am slotting Epic Reflexes atm but not sure if that is what I want long term.

Let me know your thoughts:
--------------------------------
Name: Ashenblade
Class Split: 15 Rogue / 3 Pally / 2 FvS (1: Rog; 2-4: Pally; 5-15 Rog; 16-17: FvS; 18-20: Rog)
Race: Human

Abilities:

Str: 52/70-- (18 base +6 tome +7 levels +2 Completionist +1 GoTIB +10 Item +2 Profane +2 ship +2 ED +2 Lasting / +14 Divine Might +4 Tenser’s) -- 80 if using cookies
Dex: 44/50 -- (15 base +6 tome +2 completionist +1 Enh +11 item +2 insight +1 GoTIB +2 insight +2 profane +2 ship +2 lasting / +4 Tenser’s +2 Yugo)
Con: 40/44 -- (14 base +6 tome +2 completionist +1 ED +8 item +2 insight +1 GoTIB +2 profane +2 Ship +2 lasting / +4 Tenser’s)
Int: 31/36 -- (8 base +6 tome +2 completionist +1 GoTIB +8/11 Item +2 Insight +2 ship +2 Lasting)
Wis: 33 -- (8 base +6 tome +2 completionist +8 item +1 GoTIB +2 profane +2 insight +2 ship +2 lasting)
Cha: 38 -- (14 base +5 tome +2 completionist +8 item +2 insight +1 GoTIB +2 profane +2 ship +2 lasting)

Feats:

Passive Past Life: Paladin x3, Monk x3, Ranger x3, Completionist
Epic Past Life: Doublestrike x3, Brace x3, Colors x3, Weapon x3, PoL&D x3, Deflect Energy x1
Base: Power Attack (1), Cleave (1), Completionist (3), Great Cleve (6), Two Handed Fighting (9), IC: Bludgeoning (12), Improved THF (15), Greater THF (18), Overwhelming Critical (21), Improved Sneak Attack (24), Epic Reflexes (27)
Destiny: Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting (26), Perfect Two-Handed Fighting (28)
Rogue: Opportunist (13), Defensive Roll (18)

Skills:

Disable Device: 97 (23 ranks + 8 epic +2 completionist +4 tome +11 Int mod +3 Luck +4 morale +1 profane +1 PL +20 item +5 enhanced +6 exceptional +3 guild +7 tools)
Search: 114 [94 on sheet] (23 ranks + 8 epic +2 completionist +5 tome +11 Int mod +3 Luck +4 morale +1 profane +1 PL +20 item +5 enhanced +6 exceptional +3 guild +1 insight (find traps scroll +20 roll))
Open Lock: 104 (22 ranks + 8 epic +2 completionist +4 tome +19 dex mod +3 Luck +4 morale +1 profane +20 item +5 enhanced +6 exceptional +3 guild +7 tools)
Bluff: 87 (23 ranks + 8 epic +2 completionist +4 tome +14 Cha mod +2 Luck +4 morale +1 profane +20 item +3 guild +6 exceptional)
UMD: 72 (23 ranks + 8 Epic + 3 tome +2 completionist +14 Cha mod +2 luck + 4 morale +1 Profane +1 PL + 5 item +3 guild +6 exceptional)
Heal: 73 (23 ranks + 8 Epic + 4 tome +2 completionist +11 Wis mod +2 luck + 4 morale +1 Profane +15 item +3 guild)
Jump: 50 [no buffs] (6 ranks + 8 Epic + 4 tome +2 completionist +20 Str (no DM) +2 luck +1 Profane +4 Exceptional +3 guild)
Tumble: 51 (4 ranks + 8 Epic + 4 tome +2 completionist +19 Dex mod +2 luck + 4 morale +1 Profane +4 Exceptional +3 guild)
Balance: 66 (19 ranks + 8 Epic + 4 tome +2 completionist +19 Dex mod +2 luck + 4 morale +1 Profane +4 Exceptional +3 guild)

Enhancements:
Paladin: Stalwart Defender (6 ap):

C: Holy Bastion (1), Stalwart Defense (1)
I: Improved Sacred Defense: PRR III (3), Sacred Armor Mastery I (1)

FvS: Warpriest (10 ap)

C: Smite Foe (1)
I: Toughness II (2), Divine Might (2)
II: Wall of Steel III (3), Smite Weakness (2),

Rogue: Assassin (21 ap)

C: Knife in the Darkness (1), Dagger in the Back (1), Assassin’s Trick (1), Nimbleness (1),
I: Sneak Attack Training (2), Faster Sneaking II (2),
II: Sneak Attack Training (2), Damage Boost III (3), Venomed Blades III (3)
III: Sneak Attack Training (2), Dex (2), Critical Mastery I (1)

Rogue: Thief-Acrobat (42 ap)

C: Staff Control (1), Stick Fighting (1), Tumbler (1), Kip Up (1)
I: Acrobat Staff Training (2), Thief Acrobatics III (3), Fast Movement (2)
II: Acrobat Staff Training (2), Quick Strike III (6), Haste Boost III (3)
III: Acrobat Staff Training (2), Improved Glancing Blows III (3), Sweeping Strikes I (1)
IV: Acrobat Staff Training (2), Improved Defensive Roll III (3), Staff Lunge I (1)
V: Acrobat Staff Training (2), Staff Specialization (2), Vault (2), Spinning Staff Wall (2)

Human: (1 ap)

C: Human Versatility: Damage (1)

Core Stats:

HP: 839 Standing | 923 self-buffed
Positive Spell Power: 293 (138 Devotion + 42 Implement +73 heal skill +25 Ardor potion (Alchemical) +15 guild)
Healing Amp: 295% ((30 pally PLs + 60 Shroud + 40 Bracers +45 Exceptional +20 guild) +100) / 100
Average Healing: Large Silver Flame: 738 hp | Cocoon: ~202hp | Sovereign (Anniversary/Store) Pot: 384hp + 115 hp per tick
Incorp: 10%
Max Dodge: 36 (25 base [19 armor +2 Mobile +2 Augment +2 Ship] +5 Spinning Staff +4 TA +2 Airship)
Dodge:24% standing; 34% max - (10% item +4% Imp Uncanny +5% Spinning Staff +3% Unearthly Reactions +2% Mobile +10% Nimbleness)
PRR: 151 (201 w/ SSW) / 60% (67%) mitigation (10 Armor +16 Proficiency +30 sheltering +21 Divine ETRs +9 PDK PL +25 Sacred Defender +10 Warpriest +30 Blitz)
MRR: 65 / 39.4% Mitigation (10 Armor + 30 Sheltering +25 Insight)
Total Mitigation: 88.3% (Displacement) | 81.3% (Standing) | 76.6% (no concealment)
Defensive Roll: 86% chance to reduce damage by 50% when below 50% health.
Fort: 189% (130 Item + 40% brace for impact + 4% SD +15% ship)

Saves:

Fort: 72 (11 Base +4 Epic +17 Con +4 Morale +11 Resistance +2 Luck +1 Competence +3 Guild +15 Divine Grace +1 Aura of Good +4 Insightful +2 Brace for Impact -2 Litany)
Ref: 86 (13 Base +4 Epic +20 Dex +4 Morale +11 Resistance +2 Luck +1 Competence +3 Guild +15 Divine Grace +1 Aura of Good +4 Insightful +2 Brace for Impact +1 Shadow Killer +6 Unearthly Reactions -2 Litany +2 feat)
Will: 64 (70 vs enchantment spells) (11 Base +4 Epic +11 Wisdom +4 Morale +11 Resistance +2 Luck +1 Competence +3 Guild +14 Divine Grace +1 Aura of Good +4 Insightful +2 Brace for Impact -2 Litany|| +4 Raging Focus +2 Bard PL)

Epic Destiny –Legendary Dreadnought

I: Extra Action Boost III (3), Str (2)
II: Momentum Swing III (3), Improved Power Attack (2), Str (2)
III: Lay Waste (1), Critical Damage III (3), Con (2)
IV:
V: Devasting Critical (2), Advancing blows (2)
VI: Masters Blitz (2)

Twists: Wild Weapons (4) or Grim Precision (3), Hail of Blows (2) or Brace for Impact (1), Unearthly Reactions (1), Cocoon (1)

Gear:

Trinket: Epic Litany [eldrich saves ritual] (Green: Good Luck +2|Blue/Yellow: +8 Wis)
Head: Dragon Masque (Yellow: Draconic Soul Gem | Colorless: Globe of True Imperial Blood )
Neck: Shroud of the Ardent (Green: Golem’s Heart| Blue/Yellow: +2 iWis)
Goggles: Epic Mentau’s (Green: +2 iDex |Yellow: Blindness Immunity)
Bracers: HA 40 of Superior Parry
Body: Flawless Shadow Dragonhide: Shadow Killer (Green: +2 MDB |Blue: False Life 40)
Cloak: Mysterious Cloak: 45 HA and 25 MRR (Green: Colorless: ) | Swap prismatic Cloaks
Ring: Cannith Crafted: Mobile Ring of True Seeing (Yellow: +2 iCon |Colorless: Vitality 20)
Ring: Ogre 10 or Dodge 10%
Boots: Epic Boots of the Innocent (Green: +8 Cha | Blue: +2 iCha)
Gloves: EE Backstabbers (Yellow: +8 Con)
Belt: Battlerager’s harness (Green: 250 Spell points)
Quiver: Epic Quiver of Alacrity
Weapon: Thunder Forged Q-Staff Touch of Flames/Dragon’s Edge/Mortal Fear (Orange: Meteoric Star Ruby | Red: Devotion 138 | Colorless: Heal +15)

Trapping Swap Items:

Trinket: Manual of Stealthy Pilfering (Green: Int +8 )
Goggles: Wolfinson’s Monocular Enhancer
Bracers: Ventilated Armbands
Cloak: Prismatic: Search 20 (green: iInt +2)

DPS Calcs: Single Target only, not factoring in Momentum Swing, Special Attacks, or Vulnerability Stacks (If soloing: 6.5 average stack on second 1; 11.8 average stack over 30 seconds; ~30 sec to 20 stack of Vulnerability)

EE Bruntsmash test: 3,748 dps

DPS Thunder Forged: ~3,390 Blitz | ~3,998 Haste Boosted | ~3,630 MP boosted; 4,299 Haste+MP | 6,950 helpless (base)
DPS Sireth: ~3,543 Blitz | ~4,223 Haste Boosted | ~3,825 MP boosted | 4,576 Haste+MP

Weapon: (with mods): +17 6.25[1d6] 17-20x3|19-20x5 Thunder Forged Quarterstaff: 1st Degree/Dragon’s Edge/Mortal Fear (Orange: Meteoric Star Ruby; Red: 138 Devotion; Colorless: +15 heal)
Weapon: (with mods): +11 4.75[1d10] 13-20x3|19-20x5 Sireth, Spear of the Sky (Red: 138 Devotion) -- Low fort bosses only.


Melee Power: 123 (24 Epic power + 18 LD Cores + 70 Blitz + 6 Combat Style +5 Assassin cores)
Damage Mod: 111 / 105 for Sireth (+17 / +11 weapon + 11 deadly + 4 profane +45 Str +10 Power Attack +1 Divine Favor +2 Alchemical +5 Advancing Blows +3 monk +2 Guild (Hobgoblin)
Fortification Bypass: 75% standing | 90% when needed (25% Assassin's Trick +35% Dragons Edge +10% Opportunist +5% Airship | +15% Grim Precision)
Double Strike: 57% (25% quick strikes (10 sec out of 12) +3% Opportunist + 5% Perfect TWF +9 Epic PL +12% Item +3% Hail of Blows)
Seeker: 25 (10 Seeker +2 exc seeker +6 airship +6 ED +1 Assassin)
SA damage: 76 per swing (16 dice +3 past lives +8 SA +9 iSA)
Deception proc: ~86.11% or 72.18% if Deception and Improved Deception don't stack (I need to test this more fully) -- ((+ 10% improved deception +5% Deception) ^~12.14 swings per 4 sec window) – 3.036 swings per sec

[Doutrinador]

Build goals:

• High Trash DPS (AoE): Cleaves, Glancing Blows, Lay Waste, a Metric ton of Sneak Damage
• Respectable Boss DPS: High Fort Bypass (90%), Vulnerability Stacks (Smite weakness + 1st degree = 20 stacks quickly), Deception, decent single target DPS (3,500+)
• High Surviability -- it doesn't need to tank a Death Knight, but it should be able to stand toe to toe with one: 34% Dodge, 151 PRR, Improved Defensive Roll (proc @ 50%; 86% chance), Respectable HP, High healing amp, Solid saves
• Strong Rogue skills: DD: 97 | Search: 114 | OL: 104 | Bluff: 87 | UMD: 72
• Needs to be a Staff build (Intent was to play with the new TA tree)

Currently I have my level 27 feat open. A few contenders for that slot are: Epic Reflexes; Epic Fortitude, PRR? I am slotting Epic Reflexes atm but not sure if that is what I want long term.

Let me know your thoughts:
--------------------------------
Name: Ashenblade
Class Split: 15 Rogue / 3 Pally / 2 FvS (1: Rog; 2-4: Pally; 5-15 Rog; 16-17: FvS; 18-20: Rog)
Race: Human

Abilities:

Str: 52/70-- (18 base +6 tome +7 levels +2 Completionist +1 GoTIB +10 Item +2 Profane +2 ship +2 ED +2 Lasting / +14 Divine Might +4 Tenser’s) -- 80 if using cookies
Dex: 44/50 -- (15 base +6 tome +2 completionist +1 Enh +11 item +2 insight +1 GoTIB +2 insight +2 profane +2 ship +2 lasting / +4 Tenser’s +2 Yugo)
Con: 40/44 -- (14 base +6 tome +2 completionist +1 ED +8 item +2 insight +1 GoTIB +2 profane +2 Ship +2 lasting / +4 Tenser’s)
Int: 31/36 -- (8 base +6 tome +2 completionist +1 GoTIB +8/11 Item +2 Insight +2 ship +2 Lasting)
Wis: 33 -- (8 base +6 tome +2 completionist +8 item +1 GoTIB +2 profane +2 insight +2 ship +2 lasting)
Cha: 38 -- (14 base +5 tome +2 completionist +8 item +2 insight +1 GoTIB +2 profane +2 ship +2 lasting)

Feats:

Passive Past Life: Paladin x3, Monk x3, Ranger x3, Completionist
Epic Past Life: Doublestrike x3, Brace x3, Colors x3, Weapon x3, PoL&D x3, Deflect Energy x1
Base: Power Attack (1), Cleave (1), Completionist (3), Great Cleve (6), Two Handed Fighting (9), IC: Bludgeoning (12), Improved THF (15), Greater THF (18), Overwhelming Critical (21), Improved Sneak Attack (24), Epic Reflexes (27)
Destiny: Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting (26), Perfect Two-Handed Fighting (28)
Rogue: Opportunist (13), Defensive Roll (18)

Skills:

Disable Device: 97 (23 ranks + 8 epic +2 completionist +4 tome +11 Int mod +3 Luck +4 morale +1 profane +1 PL +20 item +5 enhanced +6 exceptional +3 guild +7 tools)
Search: 114 [94 on sheet] (23 ranks + 8 epic +2 completionist +5 tome +11 Int mod +3 Luck +4 morale +1 profane +1 PL +20 item +5 enhanced +6 exceptional +3 guild +1 insight (find traps scroll +20 roll))
Open Lock: 104 (22 ranks + 8 epic +2 completionist +4 tome +19 dex mod +3 Luck +4 morale +1 profane +20 item +5 enhanced +6 exceptional +3 guild +7 tools)
Bluff: 87 (23 ranks + 8 epic +2 completionist +4 tome +14 Cha mod +2 Luck +4 morale +1 profane +20 item +3 guild +6 exceptional)
UMD: 72 (23 ranks + 8 Epic + 3 tome +2 completionist +14 Cha mod +2 luck + 4 morale +1 Profane +1 PL + 5 item +3 guild +6 exceptional)
Heal: 73 (23 ranks + 8 Epic + 4 tome +2 completionist +11 Wis mod +2 luck + 4 morale +1 Profane +15 item +3 guild)
Jump: 50 [no buffs] (6 ranks + 8 Epic + 4 tome +2 completionist +20 Str (no DM) +2 luck +1 Profane +4 Exceptional +3 guild)
Tumble: 51 (4 ranks + 8 Epic + 4 tome +2 completionist +19 Dex mod +2 luck + 4 morale +1 Profane +4 Exceptional +3 guild)
Balance: 66 (19 ranks + 8 Epic + 4 tome +2 completionist +19 Dex mod +2 luck + 4 morale +1 Profane +4 Exceptional +3 guild)

Enhancements:
Paladin: Stalwart Defender (6 ap):

C: Holy Bastion (1), Stalwart Defense (1)
I: Improved Sacred Defense: PRR III (3), Sacred Armor Mastery I (1)

FvS: Warpriest (10 ap)

C: Smite Foe (1)
I: Toughness II (2), Divine Might (2)
II: Wall of Steel III (3), Smite Weakness (2),

Rogue: Assassin (21 ap)

C: Knife in the Darkness (1), Dagger in the Back (1), Assassin’s Trick (1), Nimbleness (1),
I: Sneak Attack Training (2), Faster Sneaking II (2),
II: Sneak Attack Training (2), Damage Boost III (3), Venomed Blades III (3)
III: Sneak Attack Training (2), Dex (2), Critical Mastery I (1)

Rogue: Thief-Acrobat (42 ap)

C: Staff Control (1), Stick Fighting (1), Tumbler (1), Kip Up (1)
I: Acrobat Staff Training (2), Thief Acrobatics III (3), Fast Movement (2)
II: Acrobat Staff Training (2), Quick Strike III (6), Haste Boost III (3)
III: Acrobat Staff Training (2), Improved Glancing Blows III (3), Sweeping Strikes I (1)
IV: Acrobat Staff Training (2), Improved Defensive Roll III (3), Staff Lunge I (1)
V: Acrobat Staff Training (2), Staff Specialization (2), Vault (2), Spinning Staff Wall (2)

Human: (1 ap)

C: Human Versatility: Damage (1)

Core Stats:

HP: 839 Standing | 923 self-buffed
Positive Spell Power: 293 (138 Devotion + 42 Implement +73 heal skill +25 Ardor potion (Alchemical) +15 guild)
Healing Amp: 295% ((30 pally PLs + 60 Shroud + 40 Bracers +45 Exceptional +20 guild) +100) / 100
Average Healing: Large Silver Flame: 738 hp | Cocoon: ~202hp | Sovereign (Anniversary/Store) Pot: 384hp + 115 hp per tick
Incorp: 10%
MDB: 35 (19 armor + 5 Spinning Staff +2 augment +4 TA +1 SD +2 Airship +2 Mobile)
Dodge:24% standing; 34% max - (10% item +4% Imp Uncanny +5% Spinning Staff +3% Unearthly Reactions +2% Mobile +10% Nimbleness)
PRR: 151 (201 w/ SSW) / 60% (67%) mitigation (10 Armor +16 Proficiency +30 sheltering +21 Divine ETRs +9 PDK PL +25 Sacred Defender +10 Warpriest +30 Blitz)
MRR: 65 / 39.4% Mitigation (10 Armor + 30 Sheltering +25 Insight)
Total Mitigation: 88.3% (Displacement) | 81.3% (Standing) | 76.6% (no concealment)
Defensive Roll: 86% chance to reduce damage by 50% when below 50% health.
Fort: 189% (130 Item + 40% brace for impact + 4% SD +15% ship)

Saves:

Fort: 72 (11 Base +4 Epic +17 Con +4 Morale +11 Resistance +2 Luck +1 Competence +3 Guild +15 Divine Grace +1 Aura of Good +4 Insightful +2 Brace for Impact -2 Litany)
Ref: 86 (13 Base +4 Epic +20 Dex +4 Morale +11 Resistance +2 Luck +1 Competence +3 Guild +15 Divine Grace +1 Aura of Good +4 Insightful +2 Brace for Impact +1 Shadow Killer +6 Unearthly Reactions -2 Litany +2 feat)
Will: 64 (68 vs enchantment spells) (11 Base +4 Epic +11 Wisdom +4 Morale +11 Resistance +2 Luck +1 Competence +3 Guild +14 Divine Grace +1 Aura of Good +4 Insightful +2 Brace for Impact -2 Litany|| +4 Raging Focus +2 Bard PL)

Epic Destiny –Legendary Dreadnought

I: Extra Action Boost III (3), Str (2)
II: Momentum Swing III (3), Improved Power Attack (2), Str (2)
III: Lay Waste (1), Critical Damage III (3), Con (2)
IV:
V: Devasting Critical (2), Advancing blows (2)
VI: Masters Blitz (2)

Twists: Wild Weapons (4) or Grim Precision (3), Hail of Blows (2) or Brace for Impact (1), Unearthly Reactions (1), Cocoon (1)

Gear:

Trinket: Epic Litany [eldrich saves ritual] (Green: Good Luck +2|Blue/Yellow: +8 Wis)
Head: Dragon Masque (Yellow: Draconic Soul Gem | Colorless: Globe of True Imperial Blood )
Neck: Shroud of the Ardent (Green: Golem’s Heart| Blue/Yellow: +2 iWis)
Goggles: Epic Mentau’s (Green: +2 iDex |Yellow: Blindness Immunity)
Bracers: HA 60 of Superior Parry
Body: Flawless Shadow Dragonhide: Shadow Killer (Green: +2 MDB |Blue: False Life 40)
Cloak: Mysterious Cloak: 45 HA and 25 MRR (Green: Colorless | Swap prismatic Cloaks
Ring: Cannith Crafted: Mobile Ring of True Seeing (Yellow: +2 iCon |Colorless: Vitality 20)
Ring: Ogre 10 or Dodge 10%
Boots: Epic Boots of the Innocent (Green: +8 Cha | Blue: +2 iCha)
Gloves: EE Backstabbers (Yellow: +8 Con)
Belt: Battlerager’s harness (Green: 250 Spell points)
Quiver: Epic Quiver of Alacrity
Weapon: Thunder Forged Q-Staff Touch of Flames/Dragon’s Edge/Mortal Fear (Orange: Meteoric Star Ruby | Red: Devotion 138 | Colorless: Heal +15)

Trapping Swap Items:

Trinket: Manual of Stealthy Pilfering (Green: Int +8 )
Goggles: Wolfinson’s Monocular Enhancer
Bracers: Ventilated Armbands
Cloak: Prismatic: Search 20 (green: iInt +2)

DPS Calcs: Single Target only, not factoring in Momentum Swing, Special Attacks, or Vulnerability Stacks (If soloing: 6.5 average stack on second 1; 11.8 average stack over 30 seconds; ~30 sec to 20 stack of Vulnerability)

EE Bruntsmash test: 3,748 dps

DPS Thunder Forged: ~3,329 Blitz | ~3,944 Haste Boosted | ~3,572 MP boosted; 4,249 Haste+MP | 6,824 helpless (base)
DPS Sireth: ~3,469 Blitz | ~4,138 Haste Boosted | ~3,748 MP boosted; 4,488 Haste+MP

Weapon: (with mods): +17 6.25[1d6] 17-20x3|19-20x5 Thunder Forged Quarterstaff: 1st Degree/Dragon’s Edge/Mortal Fear (Orange: Meteoric Star Ruby; Red: 138 Devotion; Colorless: +15 heal)
Weapon: (with mods): +11 4.75[1d10] 13-20x3|19-20x5 Sireth, Spear of the Sky (Red: 138 Devotion) -- Low fort bosses only.


Melee Power: 123 (24 Epic power + 18 LD Cores + 70 Blitz + 6 Combat Style +5 Assassin cores)
Damage Mod: 111 / 105 for Sireth (+17 / +11 weapon + 11 deadly + 4 profane +45 Str +10 Power Attack +1 Divine Favor +2 Alchemical +5 Advancing Blows +3 monk +2 Guild (Hobgoblin)
Fortification Bypass: 75% standing | 90% when needed (25% Assassin's Trick +35% Dragons Edge +10% Opportunist +5% Airship | +15% Grim Precision)
Double Strike: 57% (25% quick strikes (10 sec out of 12) +3% Opportunist + 5% Perfect TWF +9 Epic PL +12% Item +3% Hail of Blows)
Seeker: 25 (10 Seeker +2 exc seeker +6 airship +6 ED +1 Assassin)
SA damage: 76 per swing (16 dice +3 past lives +8 SA +9 iSA)
Deception proc: ~86.11% or 72.18% if Deception and Improved Deception don't stack (I need to test this more fully) -- ((+ 10% improved deception +5% Deception) ^~12.14 swings per 4 sec window) – 3.036 swings per sec

Would not be better raise intel and use KTA( instead Divine Might)?

[Andoris]

Would not be better raise intel and use KTA( instead Divine Might)?

There is a couple of reasons I went Divine Might over KTA:

• Boosting CHA also increases my saves due to Divine Grace
• Divine might only costs 3 AP to get (1 min duration) vs 7 AP for KTA -- APs are really really tight on this build.
• I am not really using the tactics boost that comes with KTA
• I wanted Smite Weakness anyways, so investing in Warpriest made more sense than investing in Harper.
• I am always going to want my Cha gear on for divine grace, but I can assign much of my Int gear to swap items as it is really only used for trapping.

Based on the above I really didn't see KTA to be a good alternative. Divine might syngerizes much better with the build overall.

[richieelias27]

Would not be better raise intel and use KTA( instead Divine Might)?

1. Doesnt look to me like he has the spare AP
2. KTA is effectively the same as Divine Might

[richieelias27]

There is a couple of reasons I went Divine Might over KTA:

• Boosting CHA also increases my saves due to Divine Grace
• Divine might only costs 3 AP to get (1 min duration) vs 7 AP for KTA -- APs are really really tight on this build.
• I am not really using the tactics boost that comes with KTA
• I wanted Smite Weakness anyways, so investing in Warpriest made more sense than investing in Harper.
• I am always going to want my Cha gear on for divine grace, but I can assign much of my Int gear to swap items as it is really only used for trapping.

Based on the above I really didn't see KTA to be a good alternative. Divine might syngerizes much better with the build overall.

Beat me to it!

KTA doesnt really give a tactics boost over Divine Might (unless you are not STR based, which you are). The STR boost of Divine Might would have the same boost to tactics by nature of having a higher STR.

[AbyssalMage]

Interesting. Been contemplating dropping Monk thanks to Armor Up changes (granted I am working on Monk PL so that is out of the question currently) so it was nice to see a new take on an Acrobat build.

Going further,
Would (strength based) 13/4/3 Rogue, FvS, Pally work better? AP would be just as tight though so wondering.
Pally - MRR/PRR and Saves
FvS - Healing and Divine Might
Rogue - Loses SA from two less Rogue level. Not sure if skills would also suffer.

p.s. The Rogue pass was very disappointing for Thief Acrobat. It really looks like they spent most of their time balancing Assassin and reworking Mechanic (and animation) and simply ignored, or didn't dedicate any resources to, Acrobat.

[Andoris]

Interesting. Been contemplating dropping Monk thanks to Armor Up changes (granted I am working on Monk PL so that is out of the question currently) so it was nice to see a new take on an Acrobat build.

Going further,
Would (strength based) 13/4/3 Rogue, FvS, Pally work better? AP would be just as tight though so wondering.
Pally - MRR/PRR and Saves
FvS - Healing and Divine Might
Rogue - Loses SA from two less Rogue level. Not sure if skills would also suffer.

p.s. The Rogue pass was very disappointing for Thief Acrobat. It really looks like they spent most of their time balancing Assassin and reworking Mechanic (and animation) and simply ignored, or didn't dedicate any resources to, Acrobat.

There is nothing wrong with that split, but I can't see you freeing up enough AP to get Ameliorating Strike (would need to find 13 more AP somewhere).

In the end your split gives up 1d6 sneak damage and 2% run speed for a 2nd level spell and a few more spell points. I just don't see it being worth it

[BigErkyKid]

Just some thoughts:

- Why not the more traditional monk splash? Paladin 4 (divine might), 6 monk, 10 rogue. Or paladin 3 and 11 rogue, but dexterity based.

* The monk splash has more hamp (build in, your hamp is not a feature of the build but rather of the gear you have)
* Shadow veil and some more dodge
* Offensive gains via earth stance / wind stance
* Some HPs

You lose:

* Smite weakness (some boss DPS, but that relevant?)
* Some PRR (since you cannot stack war priest and having the same PRR with robes is a tad harder)
* Some SA and fort bypass

Is this a "reasonable" trade off? What would be the "selling feature" of your build?

[Andoris]

Just some thoughts:

- Why not the more traditional monk splash? Paladin 4 (divine might), 6 monk, 10 rogue. Or paladin 3 and 11 rogue, but dexterity based.

Dropping to 10 Rogue will cost me either surivability (defensive roll) which I really don't want to give up or DPS (Opportunist and 3% doublestrike). However a 13 rogue / 4 Pally / 3 Monk or a is worth comparing.

* The monk splash has more hamp (build in, your hamp is not a feature of the build but rather of the gear you have)
* Shadow veil and some more dodge
* Offensive gains via earth stance / wind stance
* Some HPs

You lose:

* Smite weakness (some boss DPS, but that relevant?)
* Some PRR (since you cannot stack war priest and having the same PRR with robes is a tad harder)
* Some SA and fort bypass

All of these are good points and we discussed many within our guild forums prior to posting here. I'll try to summarize the discussion we had on these topics.


Healing amp: Monk really doesn't do anything to help this. Currently, my healing amp is AP constrained not class constrained. Where it is possible that I might be able to squeeze 1 ap for the first shinto core where I couldn't find room for 2 ap for the human HA, I don't feel it is enough of a difference to have a material effect.

Shadow Veil: The only way I can afford the AP's for shadow veil would be to greatly reduce the AP spend in Assassin, which due to the Melee power gained from Nimbleness and extra damage from venomed blades would result in a DPS loss. Also to take Shadow Veil (for defensive reasons) would either cost me more offense (opporuntist) or defense (defensive roll) to fit in 6 monk. In either case Shadow Veil imo is sub-optimal for this build.

Extra Dodge: The extra dodge and run speed from being centered is a nice boost and would let me increase my standing Dodge bonus. However, due to the way MDB works I would still be capped at 34% (I would just get there sooner), giving me little in the way of a defensive bonus.

Offensive Gains: Running the numbers +2 SA dice from Shadow Killer and Earth Stance is less than 1% in dps difference (Earth stance is slightly better) on this build so there really is not much of a gain.

Action Points: Getting divine might from Pally will cost me ~9 ap (1 min duration); if I go dex based KtA will run 7-8 points. I will get back 10 from Warpriest leaving me 2-3 ap to play with.. likley that would either go to healing amp or the third core in KotC if STR based or 3 Melee power if Dex based. Either way there is a slight boost here for AoE melee damage, but a significant loss in single target dps (which is where the build is weakest). This really comes down to playstyle and who you play with. If vulnerability stacks are always at 20 anyways due to the rest of the party.. then there is not much of a loss. If you play with a varied group, or if your group counts on you to get the boss to a 20% vulnerability quickly then this is a huge loss. Personally, for me Smite Weakness is more than worth it and helps to shore up a weakenss of the build.

Smite Weakness (is it worth it?): With smite weakness and 1st degree burns you are getting a 6.5% dps boost on a boss starting with the first swing, in 30 seconds that is a 20% dps increase if you are going it alone. If you are in a party and assume that they are using 1st degree weapons as well, the entire party (6 people) is at a 11.5% dps increase on second 9 the whole party is getting a 20% dps increase. Without sense weakness, soloing you might as well not bother as the mob will be dead before you get to a 20 stack, and in a party of 6 it will be a 6% dps increase on second 1 and will take ~17 seconds to hit a 20 stack.

With the amount of damage people are doing these days that is a significant damage loss. If we only assume an average of 3,500 dps per toon (ie. no Barbs or dps speced Pally's) the difference between smite and no smite is ~8.1% loss when soloing over 30 seconds when smite gets to 20 stacks (117k damage done) and ~4.1% loss when grouping over 9 seconds when smite gets to 20 stacks (218k damage done). While smite weakness clearly favors you more when soloing, a 4% damage increase to the entire party is worth taking in my book.

Is this a "reasonable" trade off? What would be the "selling feature" of your build?

Personally, I don't think so. Monk doesn't get you very much in the way of dps, it costs you defense mostly in PRR loss, and removes a considerable amount of single target dps (sense weakness). As much as I like "monk recall" and the extra 5% run speed.. It doesn't seem like a good trade-off... however, as always ymmv. Monk isn't a bad option, it just isn't a good one either.

[BigErkyKid]

Some comments on your reply:


- Vault, staff lounge and sweeping strikes would net you 4AP. Right now I only see you using it for vault, which of course is a perk but I don't think it is necessary.

- I don't know how you computed it, but I am surprised that 2 SA dice yield more for you than x1 crit multiplier (or in wind stance, a good amount of stacking DBs).

You are using a TF staff with a profile 20/x2, 19-20/x3 with staff specialization, 17-20/x3 with IC.

This is BASE*0*(1/20)+BASE*1*(15/20)+BASE*3*(4/20) = BASE*1.35. Without accounting for seeker, the extra from earth stance puts you in: BASE*1.45.

Suppose melee power 123 and a base attack damage of 100. This is 100*2.23=223 per hit. Now this is 301.05 with 1.35 and now with earth 323.35. Again, no seeker of any sort included you are gaining 23 damage.

Compare to 3.5*2=7 of sneak attack, 7*2.23=15.61 after MP. Not even considering that SA is situational, and not adding the HP benefits of earth stance, it seems to me that it really cannot be compared at all, 2 SA and a multiplier.

Now I'd love to see how you reached your conclusion, I might be missing something obvious.

- Monk lets you wrap dance of flowers as a low hanging twist for extra 1.5 W (since you'll be using robes).

- Smite weakness really doesn't seem that hot to me. It is clearly only for bosses (15seconds cool down), and it adds 1% damage. How are you reaching 6.5% damage increase from the first round? 1% from each of them. I haven't tested how they stack, but honestly, I cannot reach a 6.5% in the first hit at all. Multiplicative is the best scenario: 1.01*1.01=1.0201.

- Dodge with monk is higher if you go the route of shadow veil.

MONK – 35% dodge – 37 with dodge feat
5 dodge TA
11 dodge item
2 guild
3 shadow dodge
6 monk
2 ninja spy
2 guild
6 uncanny dodge
max dodge: 25+3 ninja=28+(2tumbler)+(3shadowdodge)+(5swall)=38 max.

- Shadow veil: your current set up has 10 in war priest and 4 AP you could easily shave off TA. I think I could fit it in.

So in other words, I don't see the DPS gains you mention (unless my numbers are wrong, I'd be happy to rectify if you show me otherwise), I see some defensive losses from not going monk. The main drawback I see in monk is getting PRR high enough, the rest seems like winning. Honestly, FVS seems like a suboptimal splash to me. But I am willing to sand corrected!

Even without shadow veil, the extra damage, possibly healing amp seem to trump 10 PRR and smite weakness (EDIT: You lose more PRR)

[Andoris]

Some comments on your reply:


- Vault, staff lounge and sweeping strikes would net you 4AP. Right now I only see you using it for vault, which of course is a perk but I don't think it is necessary.

Not necessary, but 4ap for wings is very nice. Call it a playstyle thing

- I don't know how you computed it, but I am surprised that 2 SA dice yield more for you than x1 crit multiplier (or in wind stance, a good amount of stacking DBs).

You are using a TF staff with a profile 20/x2, 19-20/x3 with staff specialization, 17-20/x3 with IC.

This is BASE*0*(1/20)+BASE*1*(15/20)+BASE*3*(4/20) = BASE*1.35. Without accounting for seeker, the extra from earth stance puts you in: BASE*1.45.

Suppose melee power 123 and a base attack damage of 100. This is 100*2.23=223 per hit. Now this is 301.05 with 1.35 and now with earth 323.35. Again, no seeker of any sort included you are gaining 23 damage.

Compare to 3.5*2=7 of sneak attack, 7*2.23=15.61 after MP. Not even considering that SA is situational, and not adding the HP benefits of earth stance, it seems to me that it really cannot be compared at all, 2 SA and a multiplier.

Now I'd love to see how you reached your conclusion, I might be missing something obvious.

I have a fairly complex spreadsheet that I developed for these "what ifs" but let me see if I can break it down.

To keep it simple lets use Thunderforged.. looking at my dps stat block above we get this:

DPS TF (Base build): ~3,390 Blitz | ~3,998 Haste Boosted | ~3,630 MP boosted; 4,299 Haste+MP | 6,950 helpless (base)
DPS TF (+1 Crit 19-20): ~3,428 Blitz | ~4,052 Haste Boosted | ~3,675 MP boosted; 4,361 Haste+MP | 7,028 helpless (base)

That gives us a ~1.1% dps increase (base damage) with Master of Earth. Because of the way crit multipliers work, remember that on a TF q-staff with this build MoE only changes the crit multipler from 4 to 4.5.

Calculation used is:

DPS = (((MP Damage * MP)+ non-MP procs) * (1-miss chance)) * Swings per Second
MP Damage = Avg Hit * (1-crit chance) + Avg Crit * Crit chance
Avg Hit = ((Base average dice * [W]) + Damage Mod) + (Avg SA samage * Deception Proc %) + Melee Power enh procs)
Avg Crit = ((((Base Avg Dice * [W]) + damage mod + seeker) * Avg Crit Multiplier) + ((SA avg damage * Deception proc %) + MP enh procs)) * Fort Bypass %

- Monk lets you wrap dance of flowers as a low hanging twist for extra 1.5 W (since you'll be using robes).

True.. but the twists are really, really tight -- although if I went Monk.. DoF would be one of the required twists.. (10.5 base damage is nice)

- Smite weakness really doesn't seem that hot to me. It is clearly only for bosses (15seconds cool down), and it adds 1% damage. How are you reaching 6.5% damage increase from the first round? 1% from each of them. I haven't tested how they stack, but honestly, I cannot reach a 6.5% in the first hit at all. Multiplicative is the best scenario: 1.01*1.01=1.0201.

You are thinking of 1st degree burns.. Smite weakness is 4-7 stacks of vulnerability or an average of +5.5 stacks. 5.5 stacks + 1 from 1st degree burns is 6.5 stacks or a 6.5% dps boost on second one. Now I agree Smite Weakness is only for bosses, but that is one of the areas where the build is weak.. hence why I decided to shore it up with Smite Weakness.

- Dodge with monk is higher if you go the route of shadow veil.

MONK – 35% dodge – 37 with dodge feat
5 dodge TA
11 dodge item
2 guild
3 shadow dodge
6 monk
2 ninja spy
2 guild
6 uncanny dodge
max dodge: 25+3 ninja=28+(2tumbler)+(3shadowdodge)+(5swall)=38 max.

Shadow Dodge doesn't add to max (it adds to max dex which is similar but different). So with your setup max dodge = 25 + 3 Ninja Agility + 4 TA cores (you only had +2 here and Kip up is a no-brainer) + 5 Staff wall +2 Airship = 39 which is 3 higher, however; as your Dodge score will likely be lower at ~31%

Your dodge calculation is also off.. it should be: 11 Dodge item (really this should be +10 as +11 dodge of +10 str loot gen is very very rare) +5 Staff Wall + 3 Ninja Acrobatic + 3 Shadow Dodge (where the heck are you finding 6 ap to spend there?) +4 Uncanny Dodge (This is not a pure rogue so you don't get +6) +6 monk = 32..

You are unlikely to have 6 ap for Shadow Dodge or a +11 dodge item, but you are likely to twist Unearthly Reactions in most cases so really we are looking 31% (FYI the airship gives +2 Max Dex bonus.. not +4 Dodge )

- Shadow veil: your current set up has 10 in war priest and 4 AP you could easily shave off TA. I think I could fit it in.

Even if you give up Vault that is only 14 AP.. you still need to spend 7-9 to get either KtA or Divine Might.. leaving at most 7 AP left for Ninja Spy.. which is 4 ap short.

So in other words, I don't see the DPS gains you mention (unless my numbers are wrong, I'd be happy to rectify if you show me otherwise), I see some defensive losses from not going monk. The main drawback I see in monk is getting PRR high enough, the rest seems like winning. Honestly, FVS seems like a suboptimal splash to me. But I am willing to sand corrected!

Even without shadow veil, the extra damage, possibly healing amp seem to trump 10 PRR and smite weakness (EDIT: You lose more PRR)

Actually you are losing 36 PRR between Armor and Enh points, and only gaining back 12 from Earth Stance.. so net loss of 24 PRR or 4.4% in damage mitigation (not a lot.. but we are working on the margins here)

The one thing that is interesting is Air Stance.. If I could find a way to fit in GMoA for the 10% double strike the dps numbers would be about a ~5% dps boost over the base build or 7.3% if I twist dance of flowers (and don't drop any dps twists).

I'll try to work up a Monk variant using GMoA to see how it compares and post it (hopefully tomorrow sometime).

[Andoris]

So I was asked to throw together a quick look at what this build looks like on a first lifer. I am going to assume +3 tomes (they are easy to get) and a 32 point build (1750 favor unlock). For simplicity sake I'll assume the same gear, as that should be easy enough for you to modify yourself to fit your situation.

Abilities:
Str: 15 base +3 tome +4 Level ups
Dex: 15 base +3 tome +3 Level Ups to qualify for iSA
Con: 14 base +3 tome
Int: 8 base +3 tome
Wis: 8 base +3 tome
Cha: 14 base +3 tome

Skills: -3 to all skill scores; -4 to UMD

Saves: -2 to all saves; -8 to saves vs Traps; -4 to saves vs enchantment spells

Healing Amp: -30 HA

PRR: -30 PRR

DPS: ~5.9% DPS loss

[Andoris]

On BigErkyKid's urging I threw together a Monk variant of the build that drops FvS and a few Rogue levels to fit in 3 monk.

To save myself some time, I am only going to post the changes from the base build. Both options have pros and cons.. I tried to break down on option below as best as possible.

Pros:

• ~0.2% DPS increase (Air stance.. Earth stance is a slight DPS loss [~1%] with this setup)
• +9 Standing Dodge
• Option to modify twists, giving up more defense to boost DPS increase to 2.1% (drop unearthly reactions)
• Monk Recall
• Quick outfit swapping (potential to use ToEE set bonus easier)
• +3% run speed (+5% from monk - 2% from lost rogue levels
• Fist of Iron (nice dps boost every 3 sec)

Cons:

• Loss of no fail Ref Saves
• -1 to Fort and Ref Saves
• - 28 HP
• - 1 Max Dodge
• - 2.3% total damage mitigation (mostly in PRR loss, so damage will be more swingy)
• Loss of Smite Weakness
• - 1% chance for defensive roll
• Loss of 5 MP from Assassin Tree

------Detail-------------

Feats:

Passive Past Life: Paladin x3, Monk x3, Ranger x3, Completionist
Epic Past Life: Doublestrike x3, Brace x3, Colors x3, Weapon x3, PoL&D x3, Deflect Energy x1
Base: Power Attack (1), Cleave (1), Completionist (3), Great Cleave (6), Adept of Forms (9), IC: Bludgeoning (12), Improved THF (15), Greater THF (18), Overwhelming Critical (21), Improved Sneak Attack (24), Master of Forms (27)
Destiny: Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting (26), Perfect Two-Handed Fighting (28)
Rogue: Opportunist (13), Defensive Roll (18)
Monk: Two Handed Fighting (xx), Dodge (xx)

Enhancements:
Paladin: Stalwart Defender (6 ap):

C: Holy Bastion (1), Stalwart Defense (1)
I: Improved Sacred Defense: PRR III (3), Sacred Armor Mastery I (1)

Paladin: Knight of the Chalice (10 ap):

C: Slayer of Evil (1), Courage of Heaven (1)
I: Extra Turning III (3), Extra Smite (1)
II: Divine Might II (4)

Monk: Ninja Spy (9 ap)

C: Basic Ninja Training (1)
I: Sneak Attack (2), Acrobatic II (2)
II: Sneak Attack (2), Fist of Iron (2)

Rogue: Assassin (12 ap)

C: Knife in the Darkness (1), Dagger in the Back (1), Assassin’s Trick (1),
I: Sneak Attack Training (2), Faster Sneaking II (2),
II: Sneak Attack Training (2), Venomed Blades III (3)

Rogue: Thief-Acrobat (42 ap)

C: Staff Control (1), Stick Fighting (1), Tumbler (1), Kip Up (1)
I: Acrobat Staff Training (2), Thief Acrobatics III (3), Fast Movement (2)
II: Acrobat Staff Training (2), Quick Strike III (6), Haste Boost III (3)
III: Acrobat Staff Training (2), Improved Glancing Blows III (3), Sweeping Strikes I (1)
IV: Acrobat Staff Training (2), Improved Defensive Roll III (3), Staff Lunge I (1)
V: Acrobat Staff Training (2), Staff Specialization (2), Vault (2), Spinning Staff Wall (2)

Human: (1 ap)

C: Human Versatility: Damage (1)

Core Stats:

HP: 811 Standing | 895 self-buffed

Max Dodge: 36 (25 base [19 armor +2 Mobile +2 Augment +2 Ship] +5 Spinning Staff +4 TA +2 Airship)
Dodge: 33 standing; (10% item +4% Imp Uncanny +5% Spinning Staff +3% Unearthly Reactions +2% Mobile +3 Dodge +2 NS +4% centered)
PRR: 115 / 53.5% mitigation (+30 sheltering +21 Divine ETRs +9 PDK PL +25 Sacred Defender +30 Blitz)
MRR: 55 / 35.5% Mitigation (+ 30 Sheltering +25 Insight)
Total Mitigation: 86% (Displacement) | 77.6% (Standing) | 72% (no concealment)

Defensive Roll: 85% chance to reduce damage by 50% when below 50% health.

Saves: -1 to Fort Save and -1 to Reflex save

Epic Destiny –Legendary Dreadnought

I: Extra Action Boost III (3), Str (2)
II: Momentum Swing III (3), Improved Power Attack (2), Str (2)
III: Lay Waste (1), Critical Damage III (3), Con (2)
IV:
V: Devasting Critical (2), Advancing blows (2)
VI: Masters Blitz (2)

Twists: Wild Weapons (4) or Grim Precision (3), Dance of Flowers (1) or Brace for Impact (1), Unearthly Reactions (1), Cocoon (1)

[BigErkyKid]

Not necessary, but 4ap for wings is very nice. Call it a playstyle thing

All yours! :P

I have a fairly complex spreadsheet that I developed for these "what ifs" but let me see if I can break it down.
DPS = (((MP Damage * MP)+ non-MP procs) * (1-miss chance)) * Swings per Second
MP Damage = Avg Hit * (1-crit chance) + Avg Crit * Crit chance
Avg Hit = ((Base average dice * [W]) + Damage Mod) + (Avg SA samage * Deception Proc %) + Melee Power enh procs)
Avg Crit = ((((Base Avg Dice * [W]) + damage mod + seeker) * Avg Crit Multiplier) + ((SA avg damage * Deception proc %) + MP enh procs)) * Fort Bypass %

OK, I still don't see it but let's do it.

We agree that adding +SA will give you: 3.5*2=7 of sneak attack, 7*2.23=15.61 after MP.
Now let's see with this formula how many points does the multiplier add:

Assume 100 base damage (dice and damage mod), 123 MP, and say 15 seeker (I think it is fairly conservative).
19-20 roll with devastating critical, OC and MoE: [(2/20)*6*(100+15)]*2.23=153.87
The above includes the probability of that hit happening, so it is the actual damage points in expected terms.
19-20 roll without MoE: [(2/20)*5*(100+15)]*2.23=128.225

That's a gain of 25 points of damage, already probability weighted. Of course the more base damage you have, the better it is.

Now I'd take it any time over SA because it is, fortification aside, universal. It triggers on cleaves (remind me, SA does not trigger on cleaves, correct?), it doesn't need deception procs, no mobs are immune to it.

Now of course how big of a relative DPS increase is it will depend on your DPS to start with (duh). In these fictional numbers, not looking at SA, the damage is.

With MoE
100*1*(15/20)+115*3*(2/20)+115*6*(2/20)= 178.5, with MP 398.055.
Without MoE
100*1*(15/20)+115*3*(2/20)+115*5*(2/20)=167, with MP 372.41.

That is a 398.055/372.41=1.068862 or almost a 7% increase in your expected damage.

Now once you add SA you make this number look smaller, but as I said, I find SA very situational. Sure, on bosses you'll have it, but if you are cleaving packs of mobs with your acrobat, how many of those hits will be SAs? So IMHO you dwarfed the gain of MoE in a questionable way. For regular questing (non bosses) I think that 7% increase in your expected damage is the right way to look at it.

You are thinking of 1st degree burns.. Smite weakness is 4-7 stacks of vulnerability or an average of +5.5 stacks. 5.5 stacks + 1 from 1st degree burns is 6.5 stacks or a 6.5% dps boost on second one. Now I agree Smite Weakness is only for bosses, but that is one of the areas where the build is weak.. hence why I decided to shore it up with Smite Weakness.

You are absolutely right, lame of me.

Shadow Dodge doesn't add to max (it adds to max dex which is similar but different).

Again you are right, I sketched that dodge during the acrobat pass so let's give me a way to keep face and say that sev considered at some point adding to max dodge :P. The only other comment is that last I checked, I recall that uncanny dodge is based on character level, not class level.

Even if you give up Vault that is only 14 AP.. you still need to spend 7-9 to get either KtA or Divine Might.. leaving at most 7 AP left for Ninja Spy.. which is 4 ap short.

My set up was quite different, hence I could fit it :P

Actually you are losing 36 PRR between Armor and Enh points, and only gaining back 12 from Earth Stance.. so net loss of 24 PRR or 4.4% in damage mitigation (not a lot.. but we are working on the margins here)

The one thing that is interesting is Air Stance.. If I could find a way to fit in GMoA for the 10% double strike the dps numbers would be about a ~5% dps boost over the base build or 7.3% if I twist dance of flowers (and don't drop any dps twists).

I'll try to work up a Monk variant using GMoA to see how it compares and post it (hopefully tomorrow sometime).

GMoA is quite nice, a bit of a glass cannon.


In any case, the reasons why I abandoned the acrobat were the following:

- SA is decent (not great) damage, but even with IMP dec. item, an acrobat can only keep it up in single target, which is very situational atm IG. Cleaving packs of mobs you won't get it.

- It lacks burst self heals. Yes, you can drink pots or what not. But it is really not the same. Add to this that you are squishy.

- You lose your attack speed while moving, and that is a ton of your DPS. Do you usually fight static on a mostly squishy class?

- Cleaving is losing a lot of DPS. You are getting to OK levels via DBs and attack speed, but those are completely lost in AoE damage. Right now, there is a super abundance of "cleaving situations" in game.

- The gameplay is not that interesting. Most of the abilities are useless, it is basically a weird single target focused THF with cool staff animations (which btw are interrupted for longer when you are hit than regular attack animations, check it up). I don't get many clickies aside from the boring quick strike that are class / archetype based.

So squishy, DPS Okish but situational, no real addition to richer gameplay like say a VG. A class PrE that could have been super cool ( tumbling in and out of combat, tripping enemies, jumping with your staff over them to strike their leader) ends up being a lousy auto attack THF that isn't that great anyway.

Sorry if I sound a bit bitter about it, but I still think it is an accurate description.

[Andoris]

[snip]

That is a 398.055/372.41=1.068862 or almost a 7% increase in your expected damage.

Now once you add SA you make this number look smaller, but as I said, I find SA very situational. Sure, on bosses you'll have it, but if you are cleaving packs of mobs with your acrobat, how many of those hits will be SAs? So IMHO you dwarfed the gain of MoE in a questionable way. For regular questing (non bosses) I think that 7% increase in your expected damage is the right way to look at it.

Fair point, but the build does enough damage to cleave through EE trash very quickly. The only time you really notice the dps difference is with high HP red/purple named mobs. If the build had issues with packs of Mobs I would agree, but it really doesn't.

Also I did note that even on bosses MoE is a dps increase (although a small one); but remember the entire analysis is only comparing the 2 SA dice from the armor to MoE.. once you factor in Vulnerability, Potentially Melee Power from Assassin, or the option to drop 10 PRR out of Warpriest for a addition of 4 base damage from inflame (which I am thinking of doing) the dps needle swings in the other direction.

Either way, both options are viable.. if you are having difficulty with trash, MoE is superior. But if trash is already melting away in front of you, then going 2 FvS for more boss dps and better surivibility is a better way to go.

My set up was quite different, hence I could fit it :P

I would love to see your break down, if you don't mind sharing.

In any case, the reasons why I abandoned the acrobat were the following:

- SA is decent (not great) damage, but even with IMP dec. item, an acrobat can only keep it up in single target, which is very situational atm IG. Cleaving packs of mobs you won't get it.

- It lacks burst self heals. Yes, you can drink pots or what not. But it is really not the same. Add to this that you are squishy.

- You lose your attack speed while moving, and that is a ton of your DPS. Do you usually fight static on a mostly squishy class?

- Cleaving is losing a lot of DPS. You are getting to OK levels via DBs and attack speed, but those are completely lost in AoE damage. Right now, there is a super abundance of "cleaving situations" in game.

I agree on all these points, except on the Squishy point. Outside of my Heavy Armor Vanguard Pally, the TA is my most resilient toon. With the numerous layers of defenses which are all high the build is very sturdy. I haven't tanked a EE deathknight on it yet (finishing up the last ITR on him now) but I am fairly certain that it can handle that without too much worry. Only concern I have is that the HP are a little low.. but as long as you are paying attention, that shouldn't be an issue.

- The gameplay is not that interesting. Most of the abilities are useless, it is basically a weird single target focused THF with cool staff animations (which btw are interrupted for longer when you are hit than regular attack animations, check it up). I don't get many clickies aside from the boring quick strike that are class / archetype based.

I disagree on the game play not being interesting.. but that is a personal choice item.. so by definition, ymmv

It does annoy me that every other THF gets a dps increase when moving, but the TA (which is meant to be a light agile fighter) has to stand still if they don't want to eat a 15% attack speed loss. Also, it is a doublestrike build, that cleaves.. if the devs were going to do one thing.. let doublestrikes proc on Cleves for TAs and it would be a world of difference.

Either way.. not trying to convince you to play a q-staff build. I am just posting one of the builds I am currently playing, and so far I am enjoying it.

So squishy, DPS Okish but situational, no real addition to richer gameplay like say a VG. A class PrE that could have been super cool ( tumbling in and out of combat, tripping enemies, jumping with your staff over them to strike their leader) ends up being a lousy auto attack THF that isn't that great anyway.

Sorry if I sound a bit bitter about it, but I still think it is an accurate description.

I disagree in almost every way with this statement.. I do tumble into the middle of combat very often (hence Unearthly reactions) as that is the only time it makes sense to start throwing cleaves/lay waste/etc. with my high surivability jumping in the middle of a pack of mobs doesn't bother me. If for some reason I get over my head.. it is trivial to tumble back out.

As for Vault, I also use that in combat to get the back ranks to hit high value targets.

If you are playing it as a auto-attack build, you are doing it wrong. If you think the build is squishy, I disagree. The issues you describe don't apply when I play.. I do all of those things.

Yes, it can be boring if you want it to be.. but if you enjoy a active playstyle.. this is one of the better ones out there -- but you have to play it that way.

[BigErkyKid]

Edited

[Andoris]

Try it without displacement clickies or SF pots and tell me how that goes

You do realize that displacement doesn't work on EE Deathknights and that everyone, I know at least (including S&B Vanguard Pally's) drinks Silver Flame pots against EE Deathknights when needed. Have you ran EE MoD? Have you tanked a Deathknight (or sometimes 2-3 because the other tanks died)?

It suffers from low HPs (and you have a bunch because of gear and presumably ePLs, you didn't give the breakdown) combined with spiky damage (in lower PRR settings, again you have a bunch coming from PLs and gear that might not be available to everyone) and bad healing capacity. It really isn't tank material, IMHO.

Hit points are a bit low, I would prefer to be closer to 1k, but it is not that bad (only 1 Barb PL and 3 Primal ePLs for past life impact). Also, I don't think I would call 150+ PRR (with the ability to boost to over 200) "lower PRR".

I agree that this build was not built as a tank.. and I don't intend to run it as such.. however; if we are short one, the build can handle it. As for your comment that "not everyone will have the gear or PLs", I say.. so what? So those folks don't get to tank EE deathknights with a rogue. But to call the build squishy is just silly.

The tumble mechanic is quite clunky (need to block) and they tried incentivizing it via last cores which you don't take. There is little reason to tumble for you other than panic buttons. But tumble aside, the build is simply another melee. It does not have signature moves because the ones it has (on tumble mechanics and staff special attacks) are very weak. Fact is you are not using any in your build!

No I am not using the cores, and that is because I can't take them.. please notice that I only have 15 levels of Rogue.. the last 2 cores need lvl 18 rogue and 20 rogue.

I use tumble a fair amount... as I said, tumble into a pack of mobs, throw lay waste followed by some cleaves -- and then move on. If I get in over my head, I know I can tumble out.

While I agree that a tumble specific button would be nice, is it really that hard for you to hit 2 buttons at once?

Either way -- you don't have to like it.. I have been playing with it and it is a lot of fun. No one is forcing you to like it or play it.

[BigErkyKid]

You do realize that displacement doesn't work on EE Deathknights and that everyone, I know at least (including S&B Vanguard Pally's) drinks Silver Flame pots against EE Deathknights when needed. Have you ran EE MoD? Have you tanked a Deathknight (or sometimes 2-3 because the other tanks died)?



Hit points are a bit low, I would prefer to be closer to 1k, but it is not that bad (only 1 Barb PL and 3 Primal ePLs for past life impact). Also, I don't think I would call 150+ PRR (with the ability to boost to over 200) "lower PRR".

I agree that this build was not built as a tank.. and I don't intend to run it as such.. however; if we are short one, the build can handle it. As for your comment that "not everyone will have the gear or PLs", I say.. so what? So those folks don't get to tank EE deathknights with a rogue. But to call the build squishy is just silly.


No I am not using the cores, and that is because I can't take them.. please notice that I only have 15 levels of Rogue.. the last 2 cores need lvl 18 rogue and 20 rogue.

I use tumble a fair amount... as I said, tumble into a pack of mobs, throw lay waste followed by some cleaves -- and then move on. If I get in over my head, I know I can tumble out.

While I agree that a tumble specific button would be nice, is it really that hard for you to hit 2 buttons at once?

Either way -- you don't have to like it.. I have been playing with it and it is a lot of fun. No one is forcing you to like it or play it.

I apologize if I sounded overly aggressive. It was not directed at you, rather it was the disappointment at the update. I was hoping that they would make something more interesting out of the inherent abilities of acrobat, but I cannot honestly say they did.

Of course I am glad you like your build and I am sure you pilot it very well.

That said, I think that the acrobat is an archetype that looks good on paper, but that at the end of the day fails to bring some actually useful flavor to the gameplay. The example of useful flavor for me would be vanguard. The shield is actually distinctly helpful, in a way that it is not simply an skin for a second weapon.

In acrobat, unless you take 18-20 levels of rogue, tumble is not giving you anything that it would give in any other light armor toon. The staff is used like a THF weapon with a few special properties, mostly passive (attack speed and DBs). The active abilities are not that shiny.

So anyway, that being said, thanks for the discussion and apologies again for taking out the disappointment on you. Shouldn't have cluttered the thread and I'll remove the non helpful parts.

[Andoris]

I apologize if I sounded overly aggressive. It was not directed at you, rather it was the disappointment at the update. I was hoping that they would make something more interesting out of the inherent abilities of acrobat, but I cannot honestly say they did.

No worries (I really don't get offended that easy) -- and I agree, they could have done a lot more with TA with this update. Losing attack speed every time you move is really really annoying.

Tumble couldn't have also been made more of a factor (having it only matter for level 18 and 20 is silly).

Either way, I agree with many of your gripes on the Rogue pass in general.. however, that is a discussion for a different thread

[Andoris]

With the recent changes proposed by Sev here it no longer makes sense to run anything but 18 rogue for this build, 20% bonus doublestrike is just too good to pass up. Add the 150% MP on sneak attack and the extra attacks granted by doublestrike multiply quickly. Also of note, while I think having the cleaves is still worth it due to current mob densities .. you are not going to want to waste DPS on a cleave unless there is 4+ mobs around you, as doublestrike can't proc on a cleave.


So the question remains is do you go 18/2 and if so.. what should the '2' be. For saves Pally still looks really good. All told you are looking at +15 to saves from pally moving all of your saves into the no-fail range. Two levels of Monk and using GMoA turns you into a crazy dps machine, but Saves and PRR will be considerably lower. I don't see 20 rogue competing with either the Pally or Monk splash. The capstone just isn't competitive and while the 5% attack speed and the "hit two targets" is nice, the fact that you lose attack speed when moving and that you need to tumble for the "attack two" makes them less than ideal to use.

Not sure which way I plan to go yet, so I thought, I would just present both options and see where they land.