14 Pally/6 ??? Repeater Build for U25 (Help me decide)

[Gabrion]

A few weeks ago I got a bit tired of my pure Pally, so decided to use a few hearts to make him a 14 Pally/6 Ranger repeater build. At the time it was mostly just something fun to play with (since Holy Sword makes most anything work), but I actually enjoyed it. So when I saw the U25 updates, most notably the change to repeaters, I started to think a bit more about fine tuning this guy. He's currently a capped Bladeforged, so I'll probably Iconic TR him and focus a bit more on this build. What I have so far:

Race: Morninglord
Class: 14 Pally/??? 6 (possibly multiple classes to make up the six)
Stats: INT->CHA->DEX (for feat requirements)->CON->WIS/STR

Enhancements: Probably spending at least 14 Elf for AA, then 32 points in AA. If repeaters are working so they apply special attacks on all three attacks in a volley, it's just too good to pass up. Other than than, at least 8 in Harper for KTA, probably 12 to get strategic combat 2, unless getting INT to dmg from another source (maybe rogue mechanic 6?). Depending on class split, see what I can pick up with whatever is left. Let's say we have 22 to play with.

Feats: All the standard goodies for a crossbow user. Of note though, it's now nice to fit in feats that weren't good up to this point, since they add ranged power (things like weapon focus). Though not something to build around, it pretty much means more feats is almost always better, even if only marginally.

ED: Just for the record, I plan to play this guy almost exclusively in Fury for the Adrenaline+special attack combination, combined with the high rate of fire recharging adrenaline via Fury Eternal. I expect it would play fine in several other destinies (LD, DC, maybe Shadowdancer/Fatesinger/Dragon) if I want to grind out more EPLs, but currently don't plan to focus on that much.

***

So what I'm hung up on at this point is the class split. 14 Pally obviously set for holy sword. I see several options to round out the six remaining levels.

Artificer 6

• Trapping and UMD (not a high priority to me, but I like them when available). Plus as an INT based build, most classes will have many skill points left over.
• Elemental weapons infusion
• 3 bonus feats (proficiency, rapid reload, and a ranged feat of choice)
• Rune arm use
• Minor perks of Artificer Knowledge
• Possible Endless Fusilade if all 22 "extra" AP are spend in battle engineer

Ranger 6

• Opens AA without racial requirement (though if I want to play with AA capstone, that would only be available through racial).
• DWS opens Sniper Shot, which is very good with adrenaline (mini version of the other very good active and on a shorter CD) and also gives Hamp and increased sneak attack range
• 2 bonus feats (rapid shot and precise shot)
• Ram's might
• Manyshot (would not take on other builds, but probably still a good option if using strategic combat)
• Maintains full heroic BAB

Fighter 6

• 4 bonus feats (arguably more useful than they used to be since several additional feats like weapon focus will now at least have a marginal impact on Ranged Power)
• Maintains full heroic BAB

Rogue 6

• Trapping and UMD (not a high priority to me, but I like them when available). Plus as an INT based build, most classes will have many skill points left over.
• +3d6 SA from class
• Can switch to light armor for evasion when beneficial
• 1 bonus feat (light repeater proficiency) and INT to damage from mechanic cores if taken (means no heavy repeater use though and the INT to dmg is only relevant if the build can't afford to purchase through harper).
• Increased SA range from mechanic. Mechanic also opens up a few more points of damage with repeaters and potentially some +INT and leg shot if the build can afford to go T4 in that tree.

***

I'm sure I missed some things, including possibly multi-class splits to fill out the remaining 6 levels, but that's why I'm positing here. Anyone else thinking of doing one of these and/or done some theory crafting on such a build? I'd love to hear any feedback.

[elcagador]

ED: Just for the record, I plan to play this guy almost exclusively in Fury for the Adrenaline+special attack combination, combined with the high rate of fire recharging adrenaline via Fury Eternal. I expect it would play fine in several other destinies (LD, DC, maybe Shadowdancer/Fatesinger/Dragon) if I want to grind out more EPLs, but currently don't plan to focus on that much.

Then the 6 ranger splash would be the best option because of sniper shot combo with adrenaline. And you can try harper/deepwood or AArcher trees or even some of the Paladin trees.

The main lose would be trapping skills some sa dmg and maybe rune arm dmg effects but gain good burst dps with fury+ sniper shot and manyshot.

[Gabrion]

Then the 6 ranger splash would be the best option because of sniper shot combo with adrenaline. And you can try harper/deepwood or AArcher trees or even some of the Paladin trees.

The main lose would be trapping skills some sa dmg and maybe rune arm dmg effects but gain good burst dps with fury+ sniper shot and manyshot.

The guy I will TR into this is currently Pally/Ranger. He's been mostly melee, but I recently used a free lesser heart to sort of "test run" a repeater version. My current feeling with Ranger is that a lot does actually revolve around how much sniper shot will be used, specifically with adrenaline.

The thing is, Arrow of Slaying will be the go to attack for adrenaline and it's on a 20 second CD. I'll be testing after the update to be sure, but my understanding is that three big changes will happen when using a repeater:

1) If using a special attack, like Arrow of Slaying or Sniper Shot, the effect will be applied to all 3 shots in a volley. Right now it seems pretty random which attacks they apply to (past the first attack).
2) Reload animation will no longer potentially cause you to use a special attack with zero effect (for instance it's currently possible to use Arrow of Slaying when you haven't actually reloaded the crossbow, thus wasting the attack on just a reload animation).
3) The changes to reload animation will mean a net gain of attack speed, thus making fury eternal proc more often.

The last bit is something I'll have to test to see just how many attacks/second repeaters are now getting. With a shuriken build, it's easy to get enough attacks per second that you recharge adrenaline fast enough that you want another good attack besides arrow of slaying (this is where sniper shot comes in, since it has such a short CD...if you get a bunch of adrenaline recharges in a relatively short period of time, it's good to be able to spend them on sniper shot while you wait for arrow of slaying to come off CD). If, on the other hand, a repeater still doesn't attack fast enough to recharge 1 adrenaline per maybe 10-15 seconds, it might not be worth it to worry about sniper shot. It's still a good attack of course, but the major damage will come from the ~30k arrow of slaying on a 20 second CD.

On the other hand, with a higher base damage a crit multi with this build, sniper shot may be enough to one shot most things and therefore obviate arrow of slaying to some degree, which frees up a lot of AP. I know on my shuri build, adrenaline+sniper shot falls short of one shot on some EE mobs, whereas adrenaline+arrow of slaying one shots pretty much anything.

[elcagador]

The guy I will TR into this is currently Pally/Ranger. He's been mostly melee, but I recently used a free lesser heart to sort of "test run" a repeater version. My current feeling with Ranger is that a lot does actually revolve around how much sniper shot will be used, specifically with adrenaline.

The thing is, Arrow of Slaying will be the go to attack for adrenaline and it's on a 20 second CD. I'll be testing after the update to be sure, but my understanding is that three big changes will happen when using a repeater:

1) If using a special attack, like Arrow of Slaying or Sniper Shot, the effect will be applied to all 3 shots in a volley. Right now it seems pretty random which attacks they apply to (past the first attack).
2) Reload animation will no longer potentially cause you to use a special attack with zero effect (for instance it's currently possible to use Arrow of Slaying when you haven't actually reloaded the crossbow, thus wasting the attack on just a reload animation).
3) The changes to reload animation will mean a net gain of attack speed, thus making fury eternal proc more often.


On the other hand, with a higher base damage a crit multi with this build, sniper shot may be enough to one shot most things and therefore obviate arrow of slaying to some degree, which frees up a lot of AP. I know on my shuri build, adrenaline+sniper shot falls short of one shot on some EE mobs, whereas adrenaline+arrow of slaying one shots pretty much anything.

Reload animation is fixed and you should not waste anymore your special attacks, also is more faster, but I think adrenaline still does not apply to all the bolts fired and just to one bolt most of the time, so you will want manyshot with a bow for your adrenalines for max burst damage.
Also I think that arrow of slaying is very expensive (32 ap), so maybe you are better going for elf arcane archer tree for capstone (20%doubleshot), but requires 14 ap in elf tree plus 40 ap in AA tree.

Haven't played with AA in a while but can imagine the playstyle would be to save manyshot (furyshot) and some adrenalines for big or end fights because the doubleshot penalty, and use the repeater crossbow with high doubleshot for most of the quest parts, you need at least 12 ap in the harper tree for Int to hit and dmg with Bows and crossbows, if investing on full arcane archer would be 55 more ap, leaving 13 ap , where you can spend 11 ap in deepwood for sniper shot. (or 32 AA, 11 deepwood, etc)

The other option is investing on t5 Harper around 38 ap (righteousness, 15 ranged power, etc), 11 ap on deepwood for sniper shot, (or t5 deepwood for IAF and killer) that way you can take more harper, deepwood, tempest or kotc enhancements, at the cost of arrow of slaying.

The thing is wasting a slayer arrow+adrenaline just to one shot trash enemies seems overkill, generally you want to use your adrenalines on big fights and 20 sec cooldown is much longer than 6 sec cooldown, that's why I like sniper shot which is much cheaper (only 11 ap vs 32 ap). (for example you can use sniper shot 3 times during a manyshot)
But I think the best would be to have both slayer arrow and sniper shot, for max boss burst dmg.

[Seikojin]

It is a tough call. I would say ranger for the ED you want to run. If you weren't married to fury, I would say run LD and do arty for fullisade/manyshot combos.

[Gabrion]

Reload animation is fixed and you should not waste anymore your special attacks, also is more faster, but I think adrenaline still does not apply to all the bolts fired and just to one bolt most of the time, so you will want manyshot with a bow for your adrenalines for max burst damage.
Also I think that arrow of slaying is very expensive (32 ap), so maybe you are better going for elf arcane archer tree for capstone (20%doubleshot), but requires 14 ap in elf tree plus 40 ap in AA tree.

Ah I knew I tested to make sure Arrow of Slaying was working with all bolts, but failed to check adrenaline after the patch (assuming it was the same). Just checked now though and it seems you're right...adrenaline doesn't apply to all attacks. I tried to carry this idea over from a shuriken build I play, which functions differently (adrenaline applies to all the extra shuriken attacks). Still impressive I hit a 22k first bolt against the training dummy, but the second and third shots weren't as powerful. If it worked the same way as shuriken, I would have been looking at 45-60k dmg shot each 20 seconds (at that point it isn't just about being able to one shot trash, though that's nice once in a while to make sure certain caster types don't get to do anything, but rather it represents a good chunk of boss health bars).

Haven't played with AA in a while but can imagine the playstyle would be to save manyshot (furyshot) and some adrenalines for big or end fights because the doubleshot penalty, and use the repeater crossbow with high doubleshot for most of the quest parts, you need at least 12 ap in the harper tree for Int to hit and dmg with Bows and crossbows, if investing on full arcane archer would be 55 more ap, leaving 13 ap , where you can spend 11 ap in deepwood for sniper shot. (or 32 AA, 11 deepwood, etc)

Like I said, I'm mostly copying a shuriken build I already play. The playstyle for that guy (though mind you I think he sits at 3.6 attacks/second vs solo mobs, more with IPS) is to use adrenaline liberally, since he recharges it so fast. Normally adrenaline would be saved for bosses, but when you are recharging it at a rate of about 1 per 10 seconds, it's open season on trash and named alike.

I don't imagine even with the improvements that repeaters will achieve the same rate of fire, but they should still recharge ok. My rule is always use adrenaline if I have 6 or 7, and under that I at least give some thought to what's coming up next in the quest. But yes, dumping it on bosses (especially an adrenaline arrow of slaying volley, followed by an adrenaline sniper shot) is great. And I at least have a pinion, so manyshot is an option as well if 6 ranger is in the picture.

The other option is investing on t5 Harper around 38 ap (righteousness, 15 ranged power, etc), 11 ap on deepwood for sniper shot, (or t5 deepwood for IAF and killer) that way you can take more harper, deepwood, tempest or kotc enhancements, at the cost of arrow of slaying.

I'm sure I'll at least mess around with this, same way I have with my shuriken build. Especially for times when I'm playing other EDs or just want to see what kind of sustained DPS I can get, rather than just gimmicky burst.

The thing is wasting a slayer arrow+adrenaline just to one shot trash enemies seems overkill, generally you want to use your adrenalines on big fights and 20 sec cooldown is much longer than 6 sec cooldown, that's why I like sniper shot which is much cheaper (only 11 ap vs 32 ap). (for example you can use sniper shot 3 times during a manyshot)
But I think the best would be to have both slayer arrow and sniper shot, for max boss burst dmg.

Like I said, the idea is a high rate of fire to get pretty good adrenaline recharge. We'll see how well it works with repeater rate of fire. Still, I wouldn't walk into a boss fight with less than 3 adrenaline in most cases. And yes, having sniper shot handy for those (even if the build also has the longer CD arrow of slaying), is very nice.

It is a tough call. I would say ranger for the ED you want to run. If you weren't married to fury, I would say run LD and do arty for fullisade/manyshot combos.

Well despite what I've said so far, it seems like it's gonna be somewhat of a wash. Now that I've had enough time to log in and play around with it, it looks like the damage output is so high that it's probably going to be irrelevant what the other 6 levels are.

And I've also played around with LD. At the very least it's always a good option to grind martial karma. And since adrenaline doesn't work with repeaters the way I was thinking, it becomes an even more attractive option. I'm sure I'll spend some time in it (probably in DC as well for that matter).

In any case, the 14 Pally repeater base is looking very strong.

[Zoda]

If you go LD instead of fury you gain 82 more ranged power than fury would and won't require Sniper Shot or Arrow of Slaying to combo with Adrenaline. That'd free up the ranger levels for 5 rog + 1 something (arti/ranger/wizard/fighter/pally depending on taste) to get the new Mechanic goodies. 20 ranged power, 10% alacrity, 7 damage, some sneak damage (4d6 if you take the t5 thing) and a whole lot of useless nonsense that now scales with 200% of ranged power (which you'd have 132 + whatever you can affor from harper I think). Not switching to bow and manyshot would also improve the effectiveness of Doubleshot (you can get a pretty decent chance at doubleshotting with past lives/destiny feat/quiver plus I'm not sure if you can still take the 10% from mechanic t5, could have been removed). That route would go with way lower prr, but would give you evasion with a pretty uber reflex save (or I guess you can still just run in heavy armor, I'd drop it for evasion, but I have a lot of prr past lives).

I'm still tinkering with a caster/repeater hybrid that runs in shiradi with eBurst and Hellball and Ruin and stuff though, playing gimp hybrid builds is just more fun

[Humperdink]

Ah I knew I tested to make sure Arrow of Slaying was working with all bolts, but failed to check adrenaline after the patch (assuming it was the same). Just checked now though and it seems you're right...adrenaline doesn't apply to all attacks. I tried to carry this idea over from a shuriken build I play, which functions differently (adrenaline applies to all the extra shuriken attacks). Still impressive I hit a 22k first bolt against the training dummy, but the second and third shots weren't as powerful. If it worked the same way as shuriken, I would have been looking at 45-60k dmg shot each 20 seconds (at that point it isn't just about being able to one shot trash, though that's nice once in a while to make sure certain caster types don't get to do anything, but rather it represents a good chunk of boss health bars).

Not sure why you're only getting it on first bolt. My testing shows all 3 bolts. Sun elf, 20 Wizard, random loot repeater, Pin + Adrenaline + Arrow of Slaying, 1 mouse button click.

[Zoda]

If you go LD instead of fury you gain 82 more ranged power than fury would and won't require Sniper Shot or Arrow of Slaying to combo with Adrenaline. That'd free up the ranger levels for 5 rog + 1 something (arti/ranger/wizard/fighter/pally depending on taste) to get the new Mechanic goodies. 20 ranged power, 10% alacrity, 7 damage, some sneak damage (4d6 if you take the t5 thing) and a whole lot of useless nonsense that now scales with 200% of ranged power (which you'd have 132 + whatever you can affor from harper I think). Not switching to bow and manyshot would also improve the effectiveness of Doubleshot (you can get a pretty decent chance at doubleshotting with past lives/destiny feat/quiver plus I'm not sure if you can still take the 10% from mechanic t5, could have been removed). That route would go with way lower prr, but would give you evasion with a pretty uber reflex save (or I guess you can still just run in heavy armor, I'd drop it for evasion, but I have a lot of prr past lives).

I'm still tinkering with a caster/repeater hybrid that runs in shiradi with eBurst and Hellball and Ruin and stuff though, playing gimp hybrid builds is just more fun

Okay, actually I gave it some more thought, and with that rout the paladin levels are completely useless. You can just pick up morphic arrows from the elf AA tree, to get Pulverizer working on your repeater, and go pure rog then get the extra multiplier from the 5th core. That'd take you to the same crit profile as Holy Sword and you get all the SA damage, the capstone, and could take imp SA and stuff (also the amazing run speed, it's great for any ranged build).

Enhancement distribution on a half-elf could look like this:
14 helf
6 AA
41 mechanic
3 acrobat
16 harper

I prefer helf over sun elf because of the ability to double boost (LD haste + human damage).

And that might conclude my search for a build to tr to. Would also give me the rog past life I'm missing if I don't like it

[Gabrion]

Not sure why you're only getting it on first bolt. My testing shows all 3 bolts. Sun elf, 20 Wizard, random loot repeater, Pin + Adrenaline + Arrow of Slaying, 1 mouse button click.

That's interesting. Did you try it multiple times and those are the results you always got? When I first tested it I usually got adrenaline only on the first bolt, but from time to time (seemingling randomly) had it proc on more than one.

I did read somewhere recently that this can have to do with ranged attack speed. So going with that theory, I logged back in to test. As a 15 Pally/5 Ranger I had full heroic BAB, but only 1/2 for epic levels. So I did two things to increase my attack speed. 1) Cast reconstruct on myself and 2) used a tenser's scroll. I still had the same results, though maybe the second bolt had a bit higher rate of being adrenalized (only tested maybe 15 times).

One thing I notice is that you're using unbridled fury in the screenshot, not just adrenaline overload (unless I'm mistaken). Is it possible that while they are supposed to apply the same effect, they are working a bit differently.

I guess it would be awesome if you could say a bit more about your success rate at applying adrenaline to all three shots, and maybe even give us a bit more info that might help determine why it's working that way for some, but not for others.

Edit: I even partially reset enhancements to pick up tempest attack speed boost, so I had 28 BAtB, haste boost, and whatever additional speed reconstruct gives (of course in addition to blinding speed), and still didn't get any triple adrenalines.

I'm almost wondering if it's possible playing on permanent 750 ms to 1000 ms ping could mess this up?

Edit #2: Hmm after doing it some more it seems like I was mistaken. Testing adrenaline+arrow of slaying specifically, I seem to be getting the extra damage applied to each bolt (which is very good news). My testing before was before speccing AA I guess, so I was just testing adrenaline + normal attacks. For those, I'm still getting the same result (adrenaline usually only applied to the first attack). The really strange thing is that now I've tried at least one other "special attack" (inferno shot), and I'm not getting adrenaline applied on all the bolts for that (not that I'd ever use it that way, I was just trying to determine if rule was that when using adrenaline + special attack with a repeater all bolts are affected).

I'd try sniper shot, but my test toon is only 5 levels of ranger.

Okay, actually I gave it some more thought, and with that rout the paladin levels are completely useless. You can just pick up morphic arrows from the elf AA tree, to get Pulverizer working on your repeater, and go pure rog then get the extra multiplier from the 5th core. That'd take you to the same crit profile as Holy Sword and you get all the SA damage, the capstone, and could take imp SA and stuff (also the amazing run speed, it's great for any ranged build).

Enhancement distribution on a half-elf could look like this:
14 helf
6 AA
41 mechanic
3 acrobat
16 harper

I prefer helf over sun elf because of the ability to double boost (LD haste + human damage).

And that might conclude my search for a build to tr to. Would also give me the rog past life I'm missing if I don't like it

Very interesting idea. I wouldn't have thought to use Pulverizer that way.

From memory though (and I just logged in to check in case this wasn't the case), the primary imbues from AA don't work with crossbows. Yes you can get the other ones (elemental, force, para, whatever) to work by swapping weapons, but I haven't gotten the primary ones from the core to work. Unless they work in the background but don't show an icon or display any changes on the weapon.

[Zoda]

Very interesting idea. I wouldn't have thought to use Pulverizer that way.

From memory though (and I just logged in to check in case this wasn't the case), the primary imbues from AA don't work with crossbows. Yes you can get the other ones (elemental, force, para, whatever) to work by swapping weapons, but I haven't gotten the primary ones from the core to work. Unless they work in the background but don't show an icon or display any changes on the weapon.

You remembered correctly, they really don't. Just tested.

Still, I think the rog levels give more than pally does, especially offensively. You get tonns of SA damage with pure rog, the mechanic capstone actually looks real nice, and you can also pick up Assassin's Trick, which is now pretty amazing. 100% fort bypass is reachable with it vs bosses WITHOUT twists: 25% precision + 35% Dragon's Edge + 10% Opportunist + 25% Assassin's Trick + 5% ship, also removes SA immunity, meaning that you get full value of your SA vs bosses assuming that you have a deception item. All that vs 1 threat range (2 after feat) and divine favor. And that assumes that you'd go 14 pally 5 rog 1 x, against the 14 pally / 6 ranger, it has even more advantages. You can't combo special attacks with adrenaline, but it gives way higher sustainable dps, would take too long for me to do the math-fu, but I have trouble seeing an adrenaline build outdpsing LD on the long run. I just don't see repeaters reloading adrenaline fast enough, but I could be wrong.

SA damage would be 10d6 base + 7d6 from enhancements (possibly more at the cost of some ranged power) + 3d6 from Improved SA + gear (6 quiver, 8 avithoul seal, 2d6 light shadowscale upgrade). All that affected by ~135-140 RP is like 210 average additional damage per bolt.

Shadow Dagger also looks like a useful ability, and with a stretch and at the cost of some RP, one could fit in Killer for potential 20% DS (I'm not sure how useful that would that be though, sounds very situational).

[Gabrion]

You remembered correctly, they really don't. Just tested.

Still, I think the rog levels give more than pally does, especially offensively. You get tonns of SA damage with pure rog, the mechanic capstone actually looks real nice, and you can also pick up Assassin's Trick, which is now pretty amazing. 100% fort bypass is reachable with it vs bosses WITHOUT twists: 25% precision + 35% Dragon's Edge + 10% Opportunist + 25% Assassin's Trick + 5% ship, also removes SA immunity, meaning that you get full value of your SA vs bosses assuming that you have a deception item. All that vs 1 threat range (2 after feat) and divine favor. And that assumes that you'd go 14 pally 5 rog 1 x, against the 14 pally / 6 ranger, it has even more advantages. You can't combo special attacks with adrenaline, but it gives way higher sustainable dps, would take too long for me to do the math-fu, but I have trouble seeing an adrenaline build outdpsing LD on the long run. I just don't see repeaters reloading adrenaline fast enough, but I could be wrong.

SA damage would be 10d6 base + 7d6 from enhancements (possibly more at the cost of some ranged power) + 3d6 from Improved SA + gear (6 quiver, 8 avithoul seal, 2d6 light shadowscale upgrade). All that affected by ~135-140 RP is like 210 average additional damage per bolt.

Shadow Dagger also looks like a useful ability, and with a stretch and at the cost of some RP, one could fit in Killer for potential 20% DS (I'm not sure how useful that would that be though, sounds very situational).

Oh I don't doubt for a moment such a build would rock, it's obviously just a different take.

I'd only point out that you do get a few more things from paladin that you didn't mention. Just don't forget that they get some perks along the way like Divine Grace, Heavy Armor to be a bit more durable, and some added PRR/MRR if they spend 6 points in defender (and don't run fury of course).

I agree though that deeper (18 at least) rogue would be a very strong DPS option. I think the crit multi is the key to that though, which obviously comes at level 18. Yes the capstone is also nice, but at least at first glance it doesn't seem as important to me as the extra crit multi. If that's true, then a deep rogue also has options if they want to take 2 levels in something else. If they aren't wed to evasion, I'd say switching things around and going back to the old 2 paladin dip would be very nice. Boost those saves and give heavy armor. Just an idea though.

Edit: Just as a side note, even for a build that wants to use arrow of slaying+adrenaline, the 18 rogue options seems really good. Arguably for that build, the extra crit range in less relevant as it focuses on burst from adrenaline, which is a 2-20 crit range whether or not you have the extra crit range from holy sword. 14 racial AP + 32 AA + 31 Mech (for expert builder) leave 3 left over. Not much to play with, but doable for those who are so inclined (though it would miss KTA and some other nice things).

[Gabrion]

FWIW I'm getting ready to TR and have pretty much narrowed down to 2 options. Not that I think they are objectively the best, but they give me what I want. Namely I still at least want the option of playing with arrow of slaying in fury, but ideally the build should be solid enough DPS to switch to things like LD or DC when I want to.

Option 1:
Drow Paladin 14/Ranger 5/Arti 1

The idea here is to leverage Drow stat bonuses on the first build I've come up with in a long time where they are actually better than other races. +2 DEX lets you start at 16 so that a +5 tome gives you 21 for Combat Archery, +2 INT obviously lets you max that stat, and +2 CHA lets you start with 16 in that stat as well (assuming 10 CON and dump STR and WIS). Granted it only has a slight advantage over morninglord, which can start with the same stats except 14 CHA instead of 16, but it is slightly better.

The Choice of 5 ranger is to open up Arrow of Slaying without racial. It also gives 2 free feats though, plus ram's might and decent number of skills points to make sure everything you want is maxed. Arti 1 might seem like a non-starter, but it actually is pretty good as it opens up trapping (all skills should be able to be maxed on an INT primary build) and gives either 2 or 3 feats depending how you look at it (both repeater proficiency max or may not matter depending if you ever plan to switch between them). All the free feats in this build mean it can afford both force of personality and insightful reflexes. And I may even experiment twisting in the GMoF no fail abilities to have just ******** saves (side note/question: do these work uncentered?).

Edit: The one variation I'd consider on this is the full 6 Ranger that has been discussed. As already pointed out, it'd be nice to have Sniper Shot available. It would lose 2 feats compared the the arti though, having to take proficiency and rapid reload manually. Though if I decided to spend one of my feats in the build above on manyshot, well it's more competitive. It also loses all trapping though, and I don't know why, but for some reason trapping appeals to me on this build since as an INT primary, it has so many skill points available.

Option 2:
Morninglord Paladin 14/Artificer 6

Basically if I have at least 4 levels of artificer I want to be able to play around with fusillade. At least 4 levels of Arti means AA has to come from racial though, so it's not possible to fit fusillade into the standard AA configuration (14 racial + 32 AA + 24 fusillade +12 Harper for INT to dmg = 82 points). The only way I saw to make this work is going for 6 Arti to be able to cast insightful damage, which drops the required points spent in Harper from 12 to 8 (for KTA). The build loses one feat compared to Ranger (drops free precise shot and rapid shot, while picking up an Arti bonus), but also gets rune arm use and some other goodies. If I end up disliking fusillade, at least I don't see the battle engineer tree as a total waste to spend some points in, or I can always go deep harper or spend points in pally trees. The bigger things seems to be what the class level offer, and even if I don't use fusillade and/or insightful damage, arti isn't a total waste along the way with it's free feats and trapping skills.

[Kodwraith]

I have a toon on life 2 as a 8fighter/6monk/6ranger centered khopesh/centered longbow build that is hella fun to play. I've been wathcing this thread with great interest.

I've been playing around in the planner with a version of Unbong's Ranger/pally repeater post from another thread using HE Arti dilly for the HR prof and still getting more or less full melee from tempest.

Basically a HE INT/DEX/CHA build with 14 pally/6ranger.

The issue is the AP are very tight. If you want Dance of Death (which I do), it massively eats into your defenses from SD and your archery from DWS or AA.

On the upside, HolySword + DoD + Khopesh PLUS holysword + sniper shot + heavy repeater. Plus heavy armor. Or ditch your repeater, pull out you TF bow and multishot.

Main issue: I wish weapon sets would also switch arrow/bolt types as well.


Xanxibar INT build
14/6 Paladin/Ranger
Lawful Good Half-Elf


Level Order

1. Ranger . . . . .6. Ranger. . . . .11. Paladin. . . . 16. Paladin
2. Ranger . . . . .7. Paladin . . . .12. Paladin. . . . 17. Paladin
3. Ranger . . . . .8. Paladin . . . .13. Paladin. . . . 18. Paladin
4. Ranger . . . . .9. Paladin . . . .14. Paladin. . . . 19. Paladin
5. Ranger . . . . 10. Paladin . . . .15. Paladin. . . . 20. Paladin


Stats
. . . . . . . .36pt. . .Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .----. . .---- . . --------
Strength. . . . 10 . . . +3. . . .4: INT
Dexterity . . . 15 . . . +5. . . .8: INT
Constitution. . 15 . . . +3. . . 12: INT
Intelligence. . 16 . . . +3. . . 16: INT
Wisdom. . . . . .8 . . . +3. . . 20: DEX
Charisma. . . . 15 . . . +3. . . 24: INT
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .28: INT

Skills
. . . . . R .R. R .R. R .R. P .P. P .P. P .P. P .P. P .P. P .P. P .P
. . . . . 1 .2. 3 .4. 5 .6. 7 .8. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Concent . 4 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 23
Heal. . . 4 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 23
Search. . 4 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. 23
Intim . . 2 .½. ½ .½. ½ . . . .1. 1 .1. 1 .2. 2 .2. 2 .2. 2 .1. 1 .1. 23
Spot. . . 4 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. . . . . . . . .½. ½ .½. ½ .½. ½ .1. 1 .1. 15
UMD . . . 2 .½. ½ .½. ½ .½. ½ .½. ½ .½. ½ .½. ½ .½. ½ .½. ½ .½. ½ . . 11
Jump. . . 4 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .9
Balance . 2 .½. ½ .½. ½ .½. ½ .½. ½ .½. ½ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .7
Tumble. . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .34 .8. 8 .8. 8 .7. 6 .7. 7 .7. 7 .8. 8 .8. 8 .8. 8 .8. 8 .7
. . . . .36 .9. 9 10 10 10. 6 .7. 7 .7. 7 .8. 8 .8. 8 .8. 8 .8. 8 .8


Feats

.1. . . . : Point Blank Shot
.1 HalfElf: Half-Elf Dilettante: Artificer
.1 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Undead
.3. . . . : Exotic Weapon: Khopesh
.5 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Human
.6. . . . : Rapid Reload
.7 Deity. : Follower of: Silver Flame
.9. . . . : Improved Critical: Ranged
12. . . . : Greater Two Weapon Fighting
12 Deity. : Silver Flame Exorcism
15. . . . : Improved Critical: Slashing
18. . . . : Improved Precise Shot
21 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic . : Combat Archery
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic . : Precision
28 Destiny: Doubleshot


Spells

Paladin

1. Bless, Cure Light Wounds, Divine Favor
2. Angelskin, Resist Energy
3. Cure Moderate Wounds, Dispel Magic
4. Holy Sword

Ranger

1. Jump, Longstrider

Enhancements (78 of 80 AP)

Tempest (36 AP)

• Shield of Whirling Steel, Tempest, Graceful Death
  
  1. Improved Reaction III, Whirling Blades
  2. Improved Parry III, Whirling Blades, Haste Boost III
  3. Whirling Blades
  4. Elaborate Parry II, The Growing Storm II, Whirling Blades
  5. Dance of Death III

Deepwood Stalker (11 AP)

• Far Shot, Sneak Attack, Sniper Shot
  
  1. Stealthy I, Tendon Cut III
  2. Damage Boost II

Arcane Archer (19 AP)

• Arcane Archer
  
  1. Energy of the Wild III, Corrosive Arrows
  2. Dispelling Shot III, Force Arrows III
  3. Soul Magic

Harper Agent (12 AP)

• Agent of Good I, Intelligence
  
  1. Harper Enchantment, Strategic Combat
  2. Know the Angles III
  3. Strategic Combat

[Gabrion]

I ended up going with the Drow 14 Pally/5 Ranger/1 Arti. Level 22 now and pretty happy, but still need to make a lot of progress.

I basically ended up using an alt toon that hadn't been played for years, just because she still had a raider's reward box and I wanted this build to have a needle (and I've never run Caught in the Web). So I TRed that toon and ate an XP stone to get back to 20 (took me all the way their since only a second life).

Having no destinies leveled and various other things about being a virtually unplayed toon makes it a bit more difficult, but I'd say it was fulfilling at least to be able to walk into EH content solo with just some platinum AH gear and with no ED perks. I think it will be even more fun once I get 23 and can use needle.

About the build itself, I think it's going to be a good combo of offense and defense. As I talked about above, I had space to take both force of personality and insightful reflexes. With the ranged alacrity on needle, I won't need the haste feat, so I'll probably take epic fortitude and twist in impregnable mind when I get it unlocked. That'll be no fail will and fort saves, with all three saves being very high due to divine grace.

Damage I expect to be very nice mostly due to holy sword + needle. Running blitz will of course be awesome, and when running fury I expect to see some very "fun factor" level dmg numbers.

Edit: @ Kodwraith - That's a pretty interesting take. Personally I've never played much with characters that are both melee and ranged capable...I always gravitate toward builds that stick to one style. The only real downside I see is that a melee paladin ideally wants 15 levels to have access to both Holy Sword AND Zeal. I'm sure you've already though about this though.

[Kodwraith]

Edit: @ Kodwraith - That's a pretty interesting take. Personally I've never played much with characters that are both melee and ranged capable...I always gravitate toward builds that stick to one style. The only real downside I see is that a melee paladin ideally wants 15 levels to have access to both Holy Sword AND Zeal. I'm sure you've already though about this though.

Funny, I always like toons that do two things. The two splits that seem to make sense for ranger pally are 15/5 and 14/6. Basically 15/5 is much better for melee, but more feat starved, 14/6 is better for ranged and less feat starved.

I also realized after I'd posted the above build that INT based actually doesn't make as much sense as you would like seeing as you'd much rather have the extra 14 AP from NOT having taken Harper. But that gets you back to the basic problem... you're back to Multiple Attribute Dependency with a vengence. STR and DEX and CHA and CON (and WIS and INT). Consolidating on INT makes at least that bit easier. But it makes the AP worse. You need a lot of dex anyway for Combat Archery, may as well use it for to hit.

In the end you can do melee all the way OR ranged all the way, but you'll always be slightly more gimp at one or the other than a purist. The upshot is that with the INT and feat layout above, you CAN get almost all the way there just by reconfiguring Enhancements rather than stats or feats. Want more defenses? More SD. Want more ranged, take more AA/DWS. Want more melee DPS? more KOTC/Tempest.

Which is why I currently play my Switchhitter build (8F/6Ranger/6Monk) with cenetered khopeshes and longbow. All the toys plus GM stances. If monk wasnt so **** gimp right now I wouldnt even re-roll.

I also might just drop repeater from the above build. It makes feats a little more manageable and takes advantage of my huge longbow collection..

[Singular]

Hey, just wanted to link you to a build I posted in the multiclass forums - it's 5 rogue/14 pali/1 fighter:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...i-dps-estimate

It looks to produce pretty good dps through Needle. On some other thread I worked out the dps of pure rogue vrs artie and it turns out pure rogue puts out some nice dps with the great crossbow - when you add in sneak attack damage, it outperforms the pali build. But the pali version works much, much better with Needle, and that's what you're doing.

Very interested in hearing what kind of dps you're seeing!

[Gabrion]

@ Kodwraith - Well I think the sort of switchhitter build idea has been popular in some format for a long time. At the most basic level, a lot of builds have used Manyshot on otherwise melee toons just because it's great burst damage even if you didn't 100% build around it. For me, I think it's a just a matter of a) laziness and b) character theme. I find every time I play a character that has to do a lot of swapping (or even short term buffing), it ends up being less fun. And, for better or worse, I tend to have a sort of theme for a character I'm playing and they don't tend to do things that don't line up with that (my sword and board pally won't switch to a bow under pretty much any circumstance). That's just me, but I totally see how giving yourself that versatility could be really nice.

@ Singular - Pretty cool math breakdown. I didn't go nearly that far, rather just running some base numbers on needle to compare to other weapons (mostly because I would have like to use one of my established toons if Needle wasn't that great, since they didn't have access to it, but it seemed to be the best DPS which is why I ended up using a pretty green toon).

I only just hit 23, but that was obviously pretty big since it finally let me use needle. Damage still isn't incredible, but it's pretty good. I would say the jury is out till getting capped (since a lot of ranged power comes from epic levels). I also need to fill out some destinies, get appropriate gear - what, a +6 INT item and deadly +5 isn't some of the best gear at level 23?

[Gabrion]

Just another update on this build as I continue leveling it. Currently at level 25 (hey, sniffing the flowers takes time), but it's performing well.

More important than character level, I finally leveled up Fury of the Wild and switched my spec to the planned AA (didn't see much point doing this earlier as without adrenaline overload and fury eternal, AA was most wasted points and Arrow of Slaying didn't have real synergy).

Some testing vs helpless dummy, I'm hitting about 15k per bolt on a normal crit and 20k per bolt on a 19-20. So that's about 38k dmg on a 20 second CD when taking into account the chance to miss. I'd say there's some room to grow as well as I still consider him pretty basic gear (needs better INT item, seeker, exceptional seeker, deadly, etc.)

One big thing I think about going forward is how to replace some of the perks of TF weapons that I've gotten so used to. Dragon's edge was just so nice and I think I took it for granted. Also being metaline was pretty good, though I guess there are some options to purchase certain metal bolts. I think the bigger one is gonna be fort bypass. The good news is that the acid imbue with the T5 improvement helps a bit with that.

Looking back, I also wish I had just gone with a Pally 14/Ranger 6 to start off. Yes it loses two feats (so would have had to pick between force of personality and insightful reflexes), but I could have started doing EEs and see how he was holding up and then used a +1 heart if I really felt like I needed the extra saves. Oh well.

I'll probably post again when I reach cap and get a solid set of gear.

Edit: On second thought, I don't regret the level of Arti if for no other reason than I often get +30% XP in quests, which has probably increased leveling speed.