Pure Fighter, Healing and ED's with Spell Points

[MysticRhythms]

I'm a player who is coming back to the game after an extended hiatus (I quit when level cap was 16 and I am back now). When I had quit the game, I had 4 maxxed characters. I'm a purist at heart, so they are all pure-classed: Drow Ranger, Human Cleric, Human Bard and Warforged Fighter. Obviously I'm here to discuss the Warforged Fighter.

When I first built him way back in the day, he was intended to be a THF Warforged Fighter(Kensei) with tactical feats. I'd really like to keep him that way and I've managed to level him up to 23 in the past two weeks. While I enjoy Epic play, it seems that self-healing and general self-sustenance is expected. I have no problem with that and I routinely carried a full suite of potions of all varieties and clickies to help keep my fighter standing upright. the problem is that Oils of Serious Repair don't cut it at Epic level and nobody wants to be responsible for healing your character.

Since I am a pure fighter, the only EDs open to me were the martial spheres and I chose Legendary Dreadnought. It's definitely fun but doesn't have any openings to get me to be a little more self-sustaining. So I started doing some research and got hints from folks about some Primal and Divine EDs. I'm interested in Primal Avatar and Fury of the Wild but also Divine Crusader. I was reading over the various EDs and many of them are obviously intended to help out with previous spellcasting careers and have some SLAs that cost spell points. Of course, some of these EDs offer spell point boosts in the normal progression of the EDs, but that brought me to my questions:

1) I'm not a spellcasting class. I'm a pure fighter. If I take Divine Crusader (assuming I got it unlocked with whatever efforts it takes to do so) and the first free benefit gives me +25 spell points, does that get enhanced in any way? I'm sure that Wizardry/Spellpoint items will add to the total, but what about ability scores? I have a decent Wisdom - will I get bonus points for having high wisdom in term of getting more spell points?

2) Divine Crusader says it adds spellcasting levels but it suggests that it only adds them if you previously had the corresponding spellcasting class. In other words, do I get any spellcasting levels and the spell points associated with them for being Divine Crusader - "level" 1 or not?

That said, is it worth it to go into a mildly spellcasting ED like Divine Crusader if you had literally 0 spellcasting levels beforehand? I'd really like to get into Divine Crusader for the Consecrated Ground benefit or into Primal Avatar for the Rejuvenation Cocooon (which I know some people use a Twist for). I just want to know if I get a decent number of spell pooints to use the abilities from these other EDs to actually cast them often enough where it will matter or should I jsut stick to Dreadnought and get hirelings to babysit my healthbar?

[the_one_dwarfforged]

work your way over to primal avatar. twist cocoon. as a regular warforged you should absolutely spec for heal amp and not repair amp.

you can gain spell points by wearing an item with sp or slotting an sp augment. 150 sp from ml 20 aug, 200 for 24, 250 for 28.


alternatively you could tr to a bladeforged, buy a +1 heart to get rid of the pally level and use their racial sla to heal. would still need an sp item/aug. in this case you would spec for repair amp. however for various reasons i dont really recommend this (money, enhancements..).

you could also tr to a bladeforged and go 12 fighter 6 monk 2 paladin if you were willing to multiclass which was a very strong split a while ago. not quite so great now but decent. honestly i dont really recommend this either because heavy armor is just so much better/easier/more convenient.

also you could tr to a human so that you dont have impaired hamp from being a robot, and can in fact get extra hamp. there would only be a 1 point tactics dc drop, and you would gain human dmg boost which can be active at the same time as fighter haste boost to offset the loss of improved power attack.

lastly divine crusader is a perfectly viable and effective way to increase your survivability without sacrificing any offense and works just fine on a pure fighter. you gain the sp from the destiny though they will not be increased by any stat. again an sp item/aug would help. im not really sure about the caster levels tbh but they are not overly important.

[MysticRhythms]

work your way over to primal avatar. twist cocoon. as a regular warforged you should absolutely spec for heal amp and not repair amp.

As far as enhancements go, I have 26 points spent up in the Warforged Race (Tactics, Power Attack, the weapon attachment, Healer's Friend and some DR/PRR)

I hit level 24 last night and I have capped out Legendary Dreadnought. A guildmate recommended that I should get myself ot level 28 and get better gear before I start messing with my EDs since there will be some that are less efficient for my build as I work my way over to either the Divine or Primal spheres.

I did respec my enhancements to give me the full Healer's Friend line of enhancements. It cost me 10 hp (not a big deal) and 2 points of AC (not sure if this is a big deal or not). I have 41 points spent in the Kensei tree (The Capstone and all of the +1 hit/damage line) and about 13 points in Stalwart Defender (getting myself the +6 Competence bonus to Strength while in Stalwart Defensive stance. I've primarily kitted myself out toward every single bonus to damage I could find between the three enhancement trees.

I am fully finished with Legendary Dreadnought now and I got the Master's Blitz and Volcano's Edge which have been fun. I finally got Lay Waste which works well with Intimidate + Cleave + Great Cleave. Offensively, I think I am where I should be right now. I still die a lot on Epic Elite which my guildmates like to run so I tag along and do the best I can. I'm trying to figure out the best/smartest way to get to Primal Avatar or Divine Crusader so I can get myself back up when my health goes down.

You can gain spell points by wearing an item with sp or slotting an sp augment. 150 sp from ml 20 aug, 200 for 24, 250 for 28.

That seems to be enough to keep the healing going from shrine to shrine. I was worried that being a pure Fighter would mean I wouldn't have enough sp to make the abilities work. I'll try to make sure I have the right gear to add some mana.

alternatively you could tr to a bladeforged, buy a +1 heart to get rid of the pally level and use their racial sla to heal. would still need an sp item/aug. in this case you would spec for repair amp. however for various reasons i dont really recommend this (money, enhancements..).

you could also tr to a bladeforged and go 12 fighter 6 monk 2 paladin if you were willing to multiclass which was a very strong split a while ago. not quite so great now but decent. honestly i dont really recommend this either because heavy armor is just so much better/easier/more convenient.

I considered these options but I think it's something I want to hold off on until I've played the game more. I'd like to get to 36 build points and purchase a Supreme Tome for my heroic TR plan before I consider going Iconic. If I do go with a bladeforged, I am fairly certain I'd want to still be pure fighter despite the power level of the current paladin specs. I don't have to be the best "hot build of the month" as long as I know I can be a melee and do my job on Epic Elite one day as a pure fighter. I am pretty steadfast against multiclassing with this particular character. Flavor reasons and I just like being a fighter with all of the tactical feats.

also you could tr to a human so that you dont have impaired hamp from being a robot, and can in fact get extra hamp. there would only be a 1 point tactics dc drop, and you would gain human dmg boost which can be active at the same time as fighter haste boost to offset the loss of improved power attack.

While the healing of a human is attractive, the need to use boosts to replace Power Attack is the deterrent. I prefer passive abilities to active ones. I'm average with twitch skills.

lastly divine crusader is a perfectly viable and effective way to increase your survivability without sacrificing any offense and works just fine on a pure fighter. you gain the sp from the destiny though they will not be increased by any stat. again an sp item/aug would help. im not really sure about the caster levels tbh but they are not overly important.

A guildmate recommended Unyielding Sentinel as a better way to improve my survivability but I really like the offensive abilities of the Divine Crusader. I'm not really a tank build - I'm a THF melee. I know that PRR and MRR are necessities and it seems like Unyielding Sentinel would shore up my defenses but if I can be survivable enough to stay upright with Divine Crusader, I'd really rather do that.


Thanks for taking the time to read what I wrote and offer constructive criticism rather than just saying "Fighters suck, reroll as a pally."

[JamesNiels]

Congratulations for realizing pure fighters are bad.

I will still answer your questions however, if you dont mind.

1.) A char will recieve bonus spell points based on the value of their casting stat, fighters do not have a casting stat, therefore they dont gain bonus sp from any stat. The +25 spellpoints or other sources of sp are not affected by the value of the casting stat.

2.) The level of ur DC ED increases pally, fvs and cleric caster levels. I do not know if this increase applies if you have 0 of these caster levels without the ED, however this seems irrelevant, as no ability or spell in DC tree is affected by caster level. The healing from consecrated ground is affected by character level. So all u can do is increase ur positive spellpower, or, u know, ur level. Cocoon is also not affected by anything other than spellpower, and heal amp i guess. An easy source of positive spellpower is a red augment. Ml 24 gives 114 spellpower, ML 28 gives 138, if u dont have a lot of spellpower to begin with this doubles ur heals. I guess cocoon tics for like 60ish with bad healamp and +- 130 spellpower. 4 ticks. Its not ideal, especially as a melee, since it only tics as long as the 1 or more of the 150 temp hp are on ya. Also, caster level does not add spellpoints.

Enjoy non-fighter life.

[MysticRhythms]

Congratulations for realizing pure fighters are bad.

I never said they were bad. I got mine to level 24 somehow without rerolling.

2.) The level of ur DC ED increases pally, fvs and cleric caster levels. I do not know if this increase applies if you have 0 of these caster levels without the ED, however this seems irrelevant, as no ability or spell in DC tree is affected by caster level.

The point of asking was that a Cleric level X gets Y spell points just for being a ClericX. While the SLA's don't need a caster level to be useful, they do need spell points. I was wondering if Divine Crusader 5 got as many spell points as a Cleric level 5. I'm guessing it does not.

Enjoy non-fighter life.

I actually enjoy being a fighter. I realize it's not the easy-mode DPS of the latest Barbarian/Paladin/Swashbuckler abilities but I don't think it's as far off as the fighter naysayers suggest. I hit *hard* at level 24 in Legendary Dreadnought.

[JamesNiels]

Oopsie. I skimmed your 2nd post here, thought i read you were going pally or w/e. Didnt mean to rip on ur build.

So, correct, caster level is only used for determining at what level a spell is cast in other words the dice or 'power' of it. It doesnt relate to ur sp pool.

Btw, with a single sp item you can likely keep urself healed with cocoon from shrine to shrine. My monk ran with +- 200 sp relying on cocoon to stay alive, and only the less smooth ee's i ran out of sp, in which case the smaller cheaper sp pots would fill it right up.

Have fun.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

well, as a point of fact, when you consider the existence of paladins as they currently are fighters arent necessarily bad (relative to content), but absolutely pointless. paladins now do everything a fighter does, and more, better. it hurts but its true.

anyway, i would never go unyielding sentinel except to level it up or if i was tanking something, and only if that something really necessitated every last scrap of survivability (which isnt really anything, and if it did a wf non snb fighter is really not a great fit for the job). tanking is generally easy enough that you can stay in a dps destiny so that you can actually hold aggro, plus there are defensive benefits to being in ld/dc so its not a complete either/or deal.

losing 2 points of ac really doesnt mean anything. im not sure that even if you had enough ac that you were right on the edge of effective ac or not (debate as to what amount of ac that is, or whether any amount of ac is actually effective...personally idc so idk) that it would be a big deal.

where race is concerned, im going to recommend again that i think human is the absolute best choice for a fighter by far. for starters, damage boost is massively better than improved power attack. it only needs to be pressed once to activate and lasts for 20 seconds, and you dont need to have it active as soon as its off cooldown, just use it at the right times. you would have to be in a very long long long quest where youd run out of shrines and still had a long way to go for the 6 dmg from improved power attack to overtake the avg dps increase of dmg boost. also the heal amp really is a big deal. in epics for a pure fighter i use a combination of cocoon and heal scrolls to keep myself up. to aid in this i have 3 pally past lives, 3 morninglord past lives, a couple tiers of human hamp (which i just found out is currently bugged to benefit the player greatly, you can check the wiki), a gs hamp stick, and a tf devo stick. i really recommend as many of these things as you can get because they will go a long way to helping you die less in epic elite. a long way. and lastly you get more of what you want for less ap in the human tree. if you go wf, you HAVE to take **6 points** of hamp (i might spend that many in the human tree, but if i needed points for something else i can drop a tier or two no sweat. also the hamp tiers in human are extra hamp, not catch up hamp), HAVE to take 3 points of tactics, and HAVE to take **6 points** of improved power attack. that ends up being like 16 (iirc?) points minimum id put into the tree just because you have to if you go wf. bladeforged is even worse because there is even more to have. compare this to human. imp pa 6 pts < racial dmg boost 1 pt. 6 pts wf hamp (for .8 base hamp) < as many pts human hamp (for base hamp over 1). and as far as tactical dcs go, you can take 1 str from human cores as well as +3 from action surge, which power surge from kensei will proc (so basically if you go human and have +3 action surge str, when you power surge you have 60 seconds of +11 str not +8), meaning that you can 2 dmg/dc that the wf does not which offsets the loss of imp pa/tactics.

if you did go bladeforged pure fighter, id recommend that over regular wf but there will be ap issues.

i recommend dropping weapon attachment at least at some point. it takes a long time to activate, it has a long cd, the buff is nice but really not that big, and if you switch weapons (as a pure fighter you should be scroll/clicky buffing and scroll healing yourself all the time) the buff goes away. its really sucky and imo a waste of an ap.

also i recommend dropping volcanoes edge. 12 sec cd for a meh ability which you will be thinking about clicking instead of something more important. if you dont already have 3 ransk of dreadnaught damage boost, id get that as that is a massive dps boost for when you want to cleave a pack of mobs, and saves your haste boost for bosses. id drop as many ranks of the seeker enhancement as necessary to pick that up. or if that really does not work for you, id rather spend those 2 edap on +1 str.

and related to volcanoes edge, if you are using greatswords i highly recommend NOT using them. the only greatswords that are worth using in this game have "sword of shadows" in their name. on a pure fighter id recommend great axes because keen edge will give you the same number of effective hits with and axe as with a falchion (the generally best 2h weapon otherwise), but the axes base dice are bigger. additionally you can then spend those 2 edap from volcanoes edge on headsmans chop for more effective hits with your axe than with a falchion in dreadnaught. also divine crusader has a +1 crit range enhancement that will stack with keen edge, making axes much better in that destiny as well. even if you were to use fotw (not much used by melees anymore, but if youre etring and doing primal lives, this is the destiny for a thfer) its better to use an axe because of the bonus crit range granted from adrenaline. also momentum swing is a big temporary crit range buff, which again benefits axes much more than falchions.

[MysticRhythms]

well, as a point of fact, when you consider the existence of paladins as they currently are fighters arent necessarily bad (relative to content), but absolutely pointless. paladins now do everything a fighter does, and more, better. it hurts but its true.

Except tactical feats. Paladins can't afford tactical feats, cleave and great cleave AND combat mastery feats altogether, but I get your point.

anyway, i would never go unyielding sentinel except to level it up or if i was tanking something, and only if that something really necessitated every last scrap of survivability (which isnt really anything, and if it did a wf non snb fighter is really not a great fit for the job). tanking is generally easy enough that you can stay in a dps destiny so that you can actually hold aggro, plus there are defensive benefits to being in ld/dc so its not a complete either/or deal.

A friend recommended US because I'm a first-lifer with no self-healing and I get hit hard on Epic Elite (but apparently everyone does). I personally liked the ideas behind a lot more of the DC and LD ED trees, though, so it's encouraging to hear you suggest those as options.

losing 2 points of ac really doesnt mean anything. im not sure that even if you had enough ac that you were right on the edge of effective ac or not (debate as to what amount of ac that is, or whether any amount of ac is actually effective...personally idc so idk) that it would be a big deal.

I've learned that 2 AC is about as trivial as 2 to-hit, so your point is a good one on this as well.

where race is concerned, im going to recommend again that i think human is the absolute best choice for a fighter by far. for starters, damage boost is massively better than improved power attack. it only needs to be pressed once to activate and lasts for 20 seconds, and you dont need to have it active as soon as its off cooldown, just use it at the right times. you would have to be in a very long long long quest where youd run out of shrines and still had a long way to go for the 6 dmg from improved power attack to overtake the avg dps increase of dmg boost. also the heal amp really is a big deal.

I understand what you're saying regarding the Damage boost but there are plenty of quests where the number of action boosts would outpace the number of encounters between shrines. Having one fewer button to click for every fight is also significant. Also, the Damage Boost adds 20% to weapon damage so I read that as a 0.2 bonus to weapon multiplier so I don't see how it's outpacing Improved Power Attack all that much.

in epics for a pure fighter i use a combination of cocoon and heal scrolls to keep myself up. to aid in this i have 3 pally past lives, 3 morninglord past lives, a couple tiers of human hamp (which i just found out is currently bugged to benefit the player greatly, you can check the wiki), a gs hamp stick, and a tf devo stick. i really recommend as many of these things as you can get because they will go a long way to helping you die less in epic elite. a long way. and lastly you get more of what you want for less ap in the human tree. if you go wf, you HAVE to take **6 points** of hamp (i might spend that many in the human tree, but if i needed points for something else i can drop a tier or two no sweat. also the hamp tiers in human are extra hamp, not catch up hamp), HAVE to take 3 points of tactics, and HAVE to take **6 points** of improved power attack. that ends up being like 16 (iirc?) points minimum id put into the tree just because you have to if you go wf. bladeforged is even worse because there is even more to have. compare this to human. imp pa 6 pts < racial dmg boost 1 pt. 6 pts wf hamp (for .8 base hamp) < as many pts human hamp (for base hamp over 1). and as far as tactical dcs go, you can take 1 str from human cores as well as +3 from action surge, which power surge from kensei will proc (so basically if you go human and have +3 action surge str, when you power surge you have 60 seconds of +11 str not +8), meaning that you can 2 dmg/dc that the wf does not which offsets the loss of imp pa/tactics.

I fully intend to go for more past lives to get the Paladin bonuses. I had not considered the morninglord bonuses, but that's a good idea too. I'm also not feeling the +3 strength boost during psionaic strnegth as being all that similar to wf tactics. Now I have to psi boost and damage boost in most trashmob fights to get my tactics DCs right and do the damage I would have been doing from Improved PA. Plus the wf racial tree gives DR and PRR and fortification and wf immunities. I'm probably not going to change race when I TR.

if you did go bladeforged pure fighter, id recommend that over regular wf but there will be ap issues.

That's an option I'm considering for the boost to Charisma and the free reconstruct SLA.

i recommend dropping weapon attachment at least at some point. it takes a long time to activate, it has a long cd, the buff is nice but really not that big, and if you switch weapons (as a pure fighter you should be scroll/clicky buffing and scroll healing yourself all the time) the buff goes away. its really sucky and imo a waste of an ap.

I've found that to be an annoying side effect of the weapon attachment. I'll probably use thhose points elsewhere in a better manner.

also i recommend dropping volcanoes edge. 12 sec cd for a meh ability which you will be thinking about clicking instead of something more important. if you dont already have 3 ransk of dreadnaught damage boost, id get that as that is a massive dps boost for when you want to cleave a pack of mobs, and saves your haste boost for bosses. id drop as many ranks of the seeker enhancement as necessary to pick that up. or if that really does not work for you, id rather spend those 2 edap on +1 str.

I'm currently running in other EDs to accumulate Fate points, but Volcano's Edge seemed a bit lackluster. As for Haste Boost, I took Attack Boost instead because it's a prerequisite to Deadly Strike. Are you suggesting that Deadly Strike isn't worth the investment? Auto-critting seems pretty strong compared to A Good Death. Admitterdly, I never click on the Attack Boost at all.

and related to volcanoes edge, if you are using greatswords i highly recommend NOT using them. the only greatswords that are worth using in this game have "sword of shadows" in their name. on a pure fighter id recommend great axes because keen edge will give you the same number of effective hits with and axe as with a falchion (the generally best 2h weapon otherwise), but the axes base dice are bigger. additionally you can then spend those 2 edap from volcanoes edge on headsmans chop for more effective hits with your axe than with a falchion in dreadnaught. also divine crusader has a +1 crit range enhancement that will stack with keen edge, making axes much better in that destiny as well. even if you were to use fotw (not much used by melees anymore, but if youre etring and doing primal lives, this is the destiny for a thfer) its better to use an axe because of the bonus crit range granted from adrenaline. also momentum swing is a big temporary crit range buff, which again benefits axes much more than falchions.

This makes sense because of all of the ways of getting improved threat range (and this is yet another argument for using Kensei's Deadly Strike, by the way). I jsut need to find myself some good great axes to make this change. Luckily it stil lqualifies as a Heavy Blade for purposes of Weapon Focus feats.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

deadly strike is utterly worthless beyond all belief.

attack boost is equally worthless.

haste boost is amazing and imo a prerequisite to thinking of a character as a dpser.

a good death is meh but better than deadly strike.


here is why deadly strike is worthless:

first of all, it precludes having haste boost. this by itself is a deal breaker even if deadly strike were worth having.

secondly it requires throwing away many aps on useless things for a non centered fighter. that whole column above haste boost is terrible. shattering strike is a wis based dc only, battle meditation takes too long for too small a gain. deadly strike is again worthless.

thridly i was under the impression (no ive never used it because 1) its bad and 2) haste boost) that deadly strike actually consumed attack boost charges. its bad and limited too...awful.

lastly all it does is make you crit. so what? you auto attack for a few seconds and you crit plenty, 1 attack means nothing. hit haste boost and you will crit even more due to sheer volume of attacks being increased. 500 dmg on vorpal is avg of 25 dmg per use of deadly strike. nowhere near enough to justify losing haste boost.

once again, might as well be human and hit dmg boost (the racial version can be active at the same time as haste boost) for way more dps. pushing the same number of buttons. ok actually you wouldnt be, if you have attack boost and deadly strike and arent using attack boost. you would be pressing haste + dmg boost but really i dont understand the lack of desire to push buttons. oh well.

[SealedInSong]

Good news: DDO is still the same game that allows you to have fun when choosing suboptimal choices, provided you understand what you are giving up and take strides to shore up your weaknesses.

Bad news: it's true that pure fighters (NOT fighter multiclass) are so far behind paladins as to be basically as reviled/pitied as paladins and barbarians before their respective passes. In my opinion, pure fighters at epic lvl 28 can only outclass lvl 15 heroic paladins or a similarly heroic swashbuckler because of gear...I think their heroic competitors would be ahead in DPS in tests with the same weapon (i.e. Lit2 rapier). But I digress.

WHAT I'D DO:
I'm all with you for the flavor and character history; I have some characters that are grandfathered into suboptimal choices, and though they might not be soloing EE What Goes Up, they are having fun, and they are contributing.

1] Get flagged for Deathwyrm and Fire on Thunder Peak ASAP and start the grind.
Why? If you want to contribute, you're going to want endgame weapons, and those are T3 thunderforged. Unless you're using a niche weapon such as repeater or quarterstaff (which I understand you are not), thunderforged > all other weapons.

2] Get flagged for Mark of Death and start that grind too.
Why? I think this quest is fun, but you again are going to need the gear for the competitive edge if you're choosing a class that currently hasn't had an enhancement pass to put it on par with the big boys (Paladins, Bards, Barbs).

Please note that Severlin has noted that he "may have overdone it" in regard to the big boys' enhancement pass, and it's painful evident in the Rogue pass that he does not mean to give any more classes the same sort of megabuff treatment (megabuff meaning Holy Sword, Swashbuckling, Storm's Eye). That said, fighters should hopefully get some treats to make them catch up a little bit to the big boys. I wouldn't count on pure fighters ever being quite as good, but oh well.

3] Twist Sacred Ground (T3) and Consecration (T2) ASAP. Cocoon I'd consider essential but some might consider it optional.
Why? Sacred consecration eats up a lot of fate points and has a medium cooldown (30s), but unlike cocoon, it's real healing regardless of whether you're getting beaten down. Cocoon unfortunately doesn't help much if you're taking spike damage because of the healing-when-temp-HP mechanic.

4] Consider vanguard.
Why? I know you like THF but maybe if you switched to bastard swords, you'd still be able to cleave and use the THF chain, but you'll get all the really great perks of vanguard too.
Don't underestimate the amount of DPS they can do, which, when pure, I think can be quite competitive with THF.
You will NOT do the DPS a THF pure paladin will do, unfortunately. But what you lack there, you might be able to make up with some fun tactics (as you've noted). You will also probably like the damage mitigation turtling up can afford since you will not have any reliable burst healing as a pure fighter warforged (cocoon does not count).

5] I strongly recommend bladeforged.
Why? They're everywhere for a reason. They're almost too powerful, but that's for another thread. Every warforged I've ever built is strictly more powerful as a bladeforged, and the only time it might make more sense to make a warforged is if running low on Turbine points and you can't afford to LR (and in some cases, alignment change) your bladeforged to what you need.

Happy hunting!

[relenttless]

Another option is to swap one of your many feats for magical training, it will give you an extra 80sp, and, more importantly, echoes of power. This actually means that it recharges sp faster than cocoon cools down, so you never quite run out of sp.

[MysticRhythms]

here is why deadly strike is worthless:

first of all, it precludes having haste boost. this by itself is a deal breaker even if deadly strike were worth having.

secondly it requires throwing away many aps on useless things for a non centered fighter. that whole column above haste boost is terrible. shattering strike is a wis based dc only, battle meditation takes too long for too small a gain. deadly strike is again worthless.

...snipped some...

lastly all it does is make you crit. so what? you auto attack for a few seconds and you crit plenty, 1 attack means nothing. hit haste boost and you will crit even more due to sheer volume of attacks being increased. 500 dmg on vorpal is avg of 25 dmg per use of deadly strike. nowhere near enough to justify losing haste boost.

Come to think of it, I've never gotten much use out of meditation. I only took Shattering Strike because it was a 3W attack which I thought was meaningful, but I do see your points. As of this writing, I dumped the entire line leading up to Deadly Strike and went with the Haste Boost/Critical Accuracy/Good Death line. I also dumped the wf DR enhancements to get myself more strength.

... really i dont understand the lack of desire to push buttons. oh well.

It's not that I never want to do it. I just want to minimize it where possible. I already have Cleave, Greaat Cleave, Stun, Trip, Psionic Strength, Haste Boost (now), Lay Waste and Momentum Swing hot-keyed as well as several clickies, potions, Intimidate ... I prefer minimizing the number of things to add to the list because my twitch skills are average at best. It's also annoying to get stunned/tripped/cc-ed right after you click a hotbar and watch yourself standing helpless while the timer on your boost ticks away.

Of course there are several great abilities that require timing and activating in combat and I use them. But clicking Damagfe Boost in every fight as well as psionic strength when I know I want to trip/stun a little more effectively isn't as appealing to me. I think in the long run, the passive abilities will even out with the short-term boosts. It's also goign to be a while before I TR anyway (I need to farm tokens, I also want to get some tomes), so I am trying to focus on my build as it is right now. I do appreciate the advice on the build, however.

[MysticRhythms]

Good news: DDO is still the same game that allows you to have fun when choosing suboptimal choices, provided you understand what you are giving up and take strides to shore up your weaknesses.

Bad news: it's true that pure fighters (NOT fighter multiclass) are so far behind paladins as to be basically as reviled/pitied as paladins and barbarians before their respective passes. In my opinion, pure fighters at epic lvl 28 can only outclass lvl 15 heroic paladins or a similarly heroic swashbuckler because of gear...I think their heroic competitors would be ahead in DPS in tests with the same weapon (i.e. Lit2 rapier). But I digress.

I accept that the current pass makes Paladins way more attractive and "easy mode." What I don't accept is that they are so far ahead as to make fighters completely obsolete. I do plan to TR and try pure paladin at one point just because I want the past life feats on my melee character regardless of what his final class makeup will be.

WHAT I'D DO:
I'm all with you for the flavor and character history; I have some characters that are grandfathered into suboptimal choices, and though they might not be soloing EE What Goes Up, they are having fun, and they are contributing.

Having fun and contributing is a lot closer to my goals on this character than soloing What Goes Up. I have another character who is Human and has consumed Greater Tomes of Learning and he will be a different project for a melee build.

3] Twist Sacred Ground (T3) and Consecration (T2) ASAP. Cocoon I'd consider essential but some might consider it optional.
Why? Sacred consecration eats up a lot of fate points and has a medium cooldown (30s), but unlike cocoon, it's real healing regardless of whether you're getting beaten down. Cocoon unfortunately doesn't help much if you're taking spike damage because of the healing-when-temp-HP mechanic.

I snipped suggestions 1 and 2 because they make perfect sense and I intend to get flagged for proper endgame content so I can get the better gear. I acknowledge that there is quite a leap from that end game gear to what I currently have on. You are suggesting I use Legendary Dreadnought as my active ED and Twist in the elements from Divine Crusader. Is that more optimal than doing the opposite? Twisting in things like Legendary Tactics, Momentum Swing and Lay Waste while running in DC?

4] Consider vanguard.
Why? I know you like THF but maybe if you switched to bastard swords, you'd still be able to cleave and use the THF chain, but you'll get all the really great perks of vanguard too.
Don't underestimate the amount of DPS they can do, which, when pure, I think can be quite competitive with THF.
You will NOT do the DPS a THF pure paladin will do, unfortunately. But what you lack there, you might be able to make up with some fun tactics (as you've noted). You will also probably like the damage mitigation turtling up can afford since you will not have any reliable burst healing as a pure fighter warforged (cocoon does not count).

I had already started considering running Bastard Swords instead of Greatswords. the average damage is 1.5 points lower but everything else still applies (THF feats, crit range and multiplier, etc). It also looks like the Shield Specialization enhancements are not too far behind the Kensei Weapon specializations. It's hard to gauge the difference between the increase to Strength and Doublestrike for the Kensei capstone vs the increased attack speed of Vanguard. I wouldn't have to change too many feats around (just picking up Bastard Sword proficiency seems like it's a way to go). I have the 41 points wrapped up in Kensei that I could probably fairly easily move to Vanguard.

The main allure of the THF feats was the extra glancing blow damage. Do Bastard Swords still get the glancing blows when wielded one-handed? If so, this suggestion makes a lot of sense and goes a good way toward making me a little more survivable with the extra AC and PRR that a Tower Shield offers.

5] I strongly recommend bladeforged.
Why? They're everywhere for a reason. They're almost too powerful, but that's for another thread. Every warforged I've ever built is strictly more powerful as a bladeforged, and the only time it might make more sense to make a warforged is if running low on Turbine points and you can't afford to LR (and in some cases, alignment change) your bladeforged to what you need.

I definitely plan to go with bladeforged once I finish all of the TRing that I want to do on the character (I assume that Bladeforged cannot TR because they are iconic? Are laadeforged included in the VIP package?

[MysticRhythms]

Another option is to swap one of your many feats for magical training, it will give you an extra 80sp, and, more importantly, echoes of power. This actually means that it recharges sp faster than cocoon cools down, so you never quite run out of sp.

This is also a good idea since fighters get so many feats. If I don't use an exotic weapon, I'll probably respec the feat I was intending to get rid of for this.

[MysticRhythms]

One issue with Vanguard using a Bastard Sword is that you don't get the extra bonuses to damage that you do for wielding two-handed (the 1.5 strength multiplier and the 2x factor when using Power Attack).

It's hard to figure out if the increase to speed compensates for the extra static bonuses to damage.

[JamesNiels]

Another option is to swap one of your many feats for magical training, it will give you an extra 80sp, and, more importantly, echoes of power. This actually means that it recharges sp faster than cocoon cools down, so you never quite run out of sp.

False.