So many bugs, Devs probably should have held off on this pass.

[flagged]

I love what was done with the reload animations, I want to say that first and get it out there.

But beyond that, putting this lastest Lamma pass live at the end of last week was a mistake I think.

There are just so many bugs, so many changes that are in the release notes but are no where to be found in game-play, the list of bugs and MiA's is really long.

It's not that I am aggravated that things are not there, that's not the case at all. What I am concerned about is how can we do the testing and bug reporting the development team needs us to do when we are not working with a version that has any semblance to what they were trying to go live with?

Add into this the relative silence from the Devs since Friday, and the server pages get filled with some early bug reports and than post after post of escalating anxiety made by testers who are in the dark and confused about the intent of the team versus what we are playing.

Now I totally understand that Dev's need time off and deserve a weekend, so wouldn't it have been better to hold off on this Lamma pass until the beginning of the week so that you could have seen all our early bug reports and experiences and nipped any confusion in the bud with a few posts by Sev and the team?

As it is now this version is so bugged and absent, you have to wonder if we can really provide any kind of input to help the Dev's or if the mountain of posts made in the past three days are just going to have to be swept aside and began with a clean slatel (not a idea I'm against).

I really appreciate all the work the team is cranking out, I just hope that we can avoid doing any more rushed Lamma launches like this especially any time after a Wednesday.

Cheers.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Since Friday night... when Sev (and others) posted and replied to dozens of posts....

Dev's normally don't work weekends - and expecting them to is ludicrous. Now come Monday or Tuesday you will see replies.

As far as holding off this new lamannia build until after the weekend? No - that makes little sense. Most players play on weekends - and that is the best time for them to try things. This way the Dev's can get back fresh after a weekend away from the insane asylum filled with us crazies doing the thorazine shuffle; and have a fresh set of eyes to read the forums.

[Rys]

I love what was done with the reload animations, I want to say that first and get it out there.

But beyond that, putting this lastest Lamma pass live at the end of last week was a mistake I think.

There are just so many bugs, so many changes that are in the release notes but are no where to be found in game-play, the list of bugs and MiA's is really long.

It's not that I am aggravated that things are not there, that's not the case at all. What I am concerned about is how can we do the testing and bug reporting the development team needs us to do when we are not working with a version that has any semblance to what they were trying to go live with?

Add into this the relative silence from the Devs since Friday, and the server pages get filled with some early bug reports and than post after post of escalating anxiety made by testers who are in the dark and confused about the intent of the team versus what we are playing.

Now I totally understand that Dev's need time off and deserve a weekend, so wouldn't it have been better to hold off on this Lamma pass until the beginning of the week so that you could have seen all our early bug reports and experiences and nipped any confusion in the bud with a few posts by Sev and the team?

As it is now this version is so bugged and absent, you have to wonder if we can really provide any kind of input to help the Dev's or if the mountain of posts made in the past three days are just going to have to be swept aside and began with a clean slatel (not a idea I'm against).

I really appreciate all the work the team is cranking out, I just hope that we can avoid doing any more rushed Lamma launches like this especially any time after a Wednesday.

Cheers.

Most of the people don't have time to play during the week so not a good idea. Not sure what do you mean by 'rushed Lamma launches' since it is a test server, so it is expected to find the bugs.

[flagged]

Most of the people don't have time to play during the week so not a good idea. Not sure what do you mean by 'rushed Lamma launches' since it is a test server, so it is expected to find the bugs.

Well the sheer number of items that are not even present much less bugged but still listed on the release notes certainly indicates a "rushed" launch of the proposed content on Lamma, as did the commentary by the developers leading up to it.

And the player numbers on the weeknights, is heavily weighted to the more active players who take the time to load Lamma and work on bugs versus the weekend players that are less active within Lamma as a population.

Additionally, the Dev's having a chance to read and interact with one nights posts and bugs at a time and steer the lamma process is without a doubt more efficient an easier on them then having to dig through almost 3 days worth, which is common knowledge.

When the threads go for such a long period un-addressed the posts and threads stop being very useful bug reports and data sources for the development team and revert to more of a "echo chamber effect" in which bug reports and content data are hopelessly buried in posts about posts, instead of the content we are supposed to be testing for them.

I understand that they are moving as quickly as possible, but really it would be better to hold off launching something like this on Lamma in this way, as it is defeating the purpose of testing and information gathering. Hopefully the Team will return to launching at the start of the week, so the threads can produce the results they are looking for in bug reports and content data as opposed to the deafening roar of agendas when a launch is made and then left in a vacuum of dev input for days as it has this time.

[flagged]

Since Friday night... when Sev (and others) posted and replied to dozens of posts....

Dev's normally don't work weekends - and expecting them to is ludicrous. Now come Monday or Tuesday you will see replies.

As far as holding off this new lamannia build until after the weekend? No - that makes little sense. Most players play on weekends - and that is the best time for them to try things. This way the Dev's can get back fresh after a weekend away from the insane asylum filled with us crazies doing the thorazine shuffle; and have a fresh set of eyes to read the forums.

Pretty sure I addressed the weekend and the dev's needing time off in my initial post. As to player populations on weeknights, and the sheer load of meaningless posts three days in a vacumm produce especially in such a bugged and absent launch please read my posts, as it was covered.

I find it very helpful to myself and to the community to actually read the other forum members posts in their entirety before I start writing a response. Clearly it would be helpful if others did the same.

[dontmater]

i just hope they take the time to fix the known stuff
]

[Cordovan]

I would be curious to hear more about things you are reading in the Release Notes that simply aren't in the build on Lamannia. Lemme know.

[Seikojin]

I love what was done with the reload animations, I want to say that first and get it out there.

But beyond that, putting this lastest Lamma pass live at the end of last week was a mistake I think.

There are just so many bugs, so many changes that are in the release notes but are no where to be found in game-play, the list of bugs and MiA's is really long.

It's not that I am aggravated that things are not there, that's not the case at all. What I am concerned about is how can we do the testing and bug reporting the development team needs us to do when we are not working with a version that has any semblance to what they were trying to go live with?

Add into this the relative silence from the Devs since Friday, and the server pages get filled with some early bug reports and than post after post of escalating anxiety made by testers who are in the dark and confused about the intent of the team versus what we are playing.

Now I totally understand that Dev's need time off and deserve a weekend, so wouldn't it have been better to hold off on this Lamma pass until the beginning of the week so that you could have seen all our early bug reports and experiences and nipped any confusion in the bud with a few posts by Sev and the team?

As it is now this version is so bugged and absent, you have to wonder if we can really provide any kind of input to help the Dev's or if the mountain of posts made in the past three days are just going to have to be swept aside and began with a clean slatel (not a idea I'm against).

I really appreciate all the work the team is cranking out, I just hope that we can avoid doing any more rushed Lamma launches like this especially any time after a Wednesday.

Cheers.

Just a heads up, lamannia is a preview server so we as players can offer feedback and report any and all bugs we find in a live environment. because believe it or not, internal testing will find far, far fewer bugs than live, external clients. Distance does a lot to bring up a lot of bugs that qa can never find.

So having the weekend to ferret out issues is what getting friday builds up is all about. This way we can all spam up the forums and they can log and triage any immediate priority 0 and 1 issues. QA 101.

As cordovan said, what are these unlisted bugs that haven't been reported you talk of?

[Seikojin]

I would be curious to hear more about things you are reading in the Release Notes that simply aren't in the build on Lamannia. Lemme know.

The release notes don't mention the new teleporter in marketplace afaik. Which I like.

[Krell]

I think if you want the opportunity early enough in the development cycle to make suggestions for changes, then you need to be able to deal with the bugs that will show up in early versions.

[UurlockYgmeov]

The release notes don't mention the new teleporter in marketplace afaik. Which I like.

Kobold installed late one night when Dev's were asleep in their beds thinking of sugar plum fairies. :P

[flagged]

I would be curious to hear more about things you are reading in the Release Notes that simply aren't in the build on Lamannia. Lemme know.

Thanks for asking sir,

Here is a small list, just pulled from the Mechanic tree, I will complete the full list and forward that if you would like, as it is I have to head in to work so I will post this and complete later.

Enhancements
BIA= Bugged in action
BITT= Bugged in Text/tooltips
MIA= Missing in action, but listed in release note or Sev’s proposal

Cores –
Arbalester – BIA, only granted on 5mtr increase no additional ranks with cores listed in release n
Tanglefoot – BIA, using old DC’s still, acid no RP scaling
Improved det- BIA, bows not getting sneak attack
Expert Builder- MIA,BIA,BITT, The +1 crit threat range from release notes
Hip flask – MIA, BIA, BITT, dodge bugged, max dodge from release notes MIA, Additionally stat buff bugged.

Tier I –
Thunderstone - MIA, BIA, BITT, Thunderstone, using old dc’s, old damage, not consistently scaling with RP, in release notes not present.
Sharpshooter – BIA, buff to bows bugged

Tier II-
Sharphooter – BIA, bow buffs bugged

Tier III
Wrack – MIA, BIA, BITT, new version from release notes not present
Oozeflask – MIA, BIA, BITT, new version from release notes not present

Tier IV
Fletching – BIA, returning staying at 50%, (still a really cool thing!)
Leg-shot – MIA, new version from release notes not present

Tier V
Timebomb – MIA,BIA,BITT, Currently tootltip lists reversed old DC formula, new release not present.
Timebomb – BIA, the knock down effect is seriously bugged, it does not render knocked down mobs helpless, did extensive testing with other knockdowns to confirm. This is a big problem.
Timebomb – BIA, possible to get stuck on Timebomb animation
Sniper – BIA, not providing extra sneak to bows.
Sniper – BIA, Great Xbow vorpal knock down works on 19-20, but knockdown is not rendering the mobs helpless, similar to Timebomb knockdown.

Special notes, Of course the largest absence is the Critical threat range increase listed in the proposal and release notes. Without it, it is almost impossible to arrive at any useful conclusions regarding the mechanic’s ranged performance going forward. *Targeting sights should apply to bows, as well, but not listed in release notes, many of the new buffs in bows not working or present currently, making it hard to judge or report on.



Hope this helps and I really hope that we can get some guidance from the Dev Team regarding the crit threat range buff absence. It was listed in the release notes, and I can't find any statements from Sev or the others in the past two weeks suggesting that it would not be part of the tree.

[Cordovan]

Thanks for asking sir,

Here is a small list, just pulled from the Mechanic tree, I will complete the full list and forward that if you would like, as it is I have to head in to work so I will post this and complete later.

Enhancements
BIA= Bugged in action
BITT= Bugged in Text/tooltips
MIA= Missing in action, but listed in release note or Sev’s proposal

Cores –
Arbalester – BIA, only granted on 5mtr increase no additional ranks with cores listed in release n
Tanglefoot – BIA, using old DC’s still, acid no RP scaling
Improved det- BIA, bows not getting sneak attack
Expert Builder- MIA,BIA,BITT, The +1 crit threat range from release notes
Hip flask – MIA, BIA, BITT, dodge bugged, max dodge from release notes MIA, Additionally stat buff bugged.

Tier I –
Thunderstone - MIA, BIA, BITT, Thunderstone, using old dc’s, old damage, not consistently scaling with RP, in release notes not present.
Sharpshooter – BIA, buff to bows bugged

Tier II-
Sharphooter – BIA, bow buffs bugged

Tier III
Wrack – MIA, BIA, BITT, new version from release notes not present
Oozeflask – MIA, BIA, BITT, new version from release notes not present

Tier IV
Fletching – BIA, returning staying at 50%, (still a really cool thing!)
Leg-shot – MIA, new version from release notes not present

Tier V
Timebomb – MIA,BIA,BITT, Currently tootltip lists reversed old DC formula, new release not present.
Timebomb – BIA, the knock down effect is seriously bugged, it does not render knocked down mobs helpless, did extensive testing with other knockdowns to confirm. This is a big problem.
Timebomb – BIA, possible to get stuck on Timebomb animation
Sniper – BIA, not providing extra sneak to bows.
Sniper – BIA, Great Xbow vorpal knock down works on 19-20, but knockdown is not rendering the mobs helpless, similar to Timebomb knockdown.

Special notes, Of course the largest absence is the Critical threat range increase listed in the proposal and release notes. Without it, it is almost impossible to arrive at any useful conclusions regarding the mechanic’s ranged performance going forward. *Targeting sights should apply to bows, as well, but not listed in release notes, many of the new buffs in bows not working or present currently, making it hard to judge or report on.



Hope this helps and I really hope that we can get some guidance from the Dev Team regarding the crit threat range buff absence. It was listed in the release notes, and I can't find any statements from Sev or the others in the past two weeks suggesting that it would not be part of the tree.

I did want to clarify the Critical threat range increase. This is an erroneous release note, and will be removed in future iterations of the release notes. This ended up not being implemented, but made it into the release notes.

Thanks for the rest; I'll look more into it when time permits.

[RockHeavy]

Seriously... don't even bother looking at the rest of the bugs with mechanic tree. If it is going in without the critical threat increase, who do you think is going to bother with it. Might as well just take 14 levels of Paladin instead of 18 levels of rogue

[Thar]

I did want to clarify the Critical threat range increase. This is an erroneous release note, and will be removed in future iterations of the release notes. This ended up not being implemented, but made it into the release notes.

Thanks for the rest; I'll look more into it when time permits.

Every class should have a critical threat increase (melee and ranged if not applicable to both). If this is removed for ranged, the mechanic pass will be a fail. keep it high in the cores to avoid slash builds like pally requires 14 lvl. with ranged having crappy crit ranges already this isn't op...

[Oxarhamar]

Every class should have a critical threat increase (melee and ranged if not applicable to both). If this is removed for ranged, the mechanic pass will be a fail. keep it high in the cores to avoid slash builds like pally requires 14 lvl. with ranged having crappy crit ranges already this isn't op...

Not making it into this iteration of Llamania is not the same as removing it from the pass.

[Mryal]

I did want to clarify the Critical threat range increase. This is an erroneous release note, and will be removed in future iterations of the release notes. This ended up not being implemented, but made it into the release notes.

Thanks for the rest; I'll look more into it when time permits.

Cordovan, please enlighten us on what is the reasoning behind this change.Without the threat range people will default to 14 paladin/5rogue/1 something for the threat range on holysword, or just not bother with mechanic at all.
Why is this removed, balancing issue? if so, youre doing it the wrong way, you should remove the threat range from Holy Sword too since its totally unecessary and only causes design conflitcs like what we are facing now.

If youre trying to stop the power creep by removing the buffs on new class revamps, its not gonna work unless what is alredy creeped up to over 9000 level is NERFED.
Nerfing is a part of any game that turbine appears to have forgotten, look on the forums of any mmo, any complex game, theres nerfs all arround.

The only thing that was acomplished with paladin revamp was that the default /2 paladin splash became a default /14 paladin splash, and the fact that people are mentioning the use of Holy Sword on a ranged rogue thread all over again - wich are two completly distinct universes, should point out how something should be done about it.

The fact that people are finding a better alternative to take 14 lvls of paladin for ranged and totaly ignore the fact that the paladin trees bring pretty much nothing for ranged, that they are taking the 14 lvls for one spell alone, should make it pretty obvious that it should be nerfed.

[Cordovan]

Cordovan, please enlighten us on what is the reasoning behind this change.Without the threat range people will default to 14 paladin/5rogue/1 something for the threat range on holysword, or just not bother with mechanic at all.
Why is this removed, balancing issue? if so, youre doing it the wrong way, you should remove the threat range from Holy Sword too since its totally unecessary and only causes design conflitcs like what we are facing now.

If youre trying to stop the power creep by removing the buffs on new class revamps, its not gonna work unless what is alredy creeped up to over 9000 level is NERFED.
Nerfing is a part of any game that turbine appears to have forgotten, look on the forums of any mmo, any complex game, theres nerfs all arround.

The only thing that was acomplished with paladin revamp was that the default /2 paladin splash became a default /14 paladin splash, and the fact that people are mentioning the use of Holy Sword on a ranged rogue thread all over again - wich are two completly distinct universes, should point out how something should be done about it.

The fact that people are finding a better alternative to take 14 lvls of paladin for ranged and totaly ignore the fact that the paladin trees bring pretty much nothing for ranged, that they are taking the 14 lvls for one spell alone, should make it pretty obvious that it should be nerfed.

The bonus isn't being removed; it never existed to begin with, but erroneously made it into the release notes.

[Amundir]

Players: "Why didn't you pull the rabbit out of the hat"
Cordo: "There was no rabbit..."

LMAO .....sorry

[RockHeavy]

Players: "Why didn't you pull the rabbit out of the hat"
Cordo: "There was no rabbit..."

LMAO .....sorry

23 pages of "Official Discussion" on Mechanic revamp suggest otherwise... the rabbit was definitely put into the hat, but has now disappeared