Devs - this is why paladins don't need the best DPS

[Thrudh]

As I suspected, you play rule zero D&D. Theres nothing wrong with that essentially. Its when you start claiming non sequiturs, like anyone else who plays by the rules had bad DMs, where the issue lies. We didn't limit our play to tactical combat, we just played using the rules, as written. This allowed us to provide true feedback about the actual game to those running the test group(s), and they could honestly see where the game was balanced, and where it was broken / could be abused, etc...

You didn't really understand the power of D&D if you only played by the "rules". D&D is not Monopoly.

The whole point of having a human DM and an actual story that changed based on the players actions was apparently lost on you guys.

We'll agree to disagree on what constitutes "bad DMing". It's subjective, but I wouldn't have lasted long in your group... Too boring, too much like Monopoly.

It really does explain your ideas behind game balance... You really didn't think rope trick and the ability to get back all spells whenever you want, regardless of situation, was over-powered?

Did your DM at least start making adventures where time was of the essence? That's what I would have done to limit your use of 100% safe, whereever you want, 8 hour rests. You probably would have accused me of "trying to kill the party", and not "playing by the rules".

[Chai]

You didn't really understand the power of D&D if you only played by the "rules". D&D is not Monopoly.

The whole point of having a human DM and an actual story that changed based on the players actions was apparently lost on you guys.

We'll agree to disagree on what constitutes "bad DMing". It's subjective, but I wouldn't have lasted long in your group... Too boring, too much like Monopoly.

It really does explain your ideas behind game balance... You really didn't think rope trick and the ability to get back all spells whenever you want, regardless of situation, was over-powered?

.
We understood it perfectly and played by the rules on purpose in order to test the game. Again, theres nothing wrong with playing rule zero D&D, but arguing rule zero D&D is better than rule as written is oberoni.

Who said "regardless of situation"? In this example, a good DM will design things into their module before hand (before the players characters are even known) and use them. A bad DM comes up with excuses on the spot which were not designed into the module, plays those cards arbitrarily, then witnesses their players attrite on a session by session basis.

Did your DM at least start making adventures where time was of the essence? That's what I would have done to limit your use of 100% safe, wherever you want, 8 hour rests. You probably would have accused me of "trying to kill the party", and not "playing by the rules".

As a wizard, I can just stop time. Theres a spell for that too....(unless of course you rule zeroed out every method which can be used to control that as well)

This enforces my assertion that by claiming casters and melee were balanced, you weren't taking into account how powerful casters in D&D tabletop really are.

[BigErkyKid]

I hope Thrudh learnt something from this thread. Even the most undeniable facts can be questioned in these forums and the "all is well crowd" is relentless. So next time, do not pile up with them in the crusade against common sense

[Chai]

I hope Thrudh learnt something from this thread. Even the most undeniable facts can be questioned in these forums and the "all is well crowd" is relentless. So next time, do not pile up with them in the crusade against common sense

If you are insinuating Im part of the "all is well" crowd you haven't reviewed my posting history. I think he was accused of that more than I in the past actually.

[walkin_dude]

Yeap, games have rules man. Ignoring the rules to place arbitrary limitations on players because they built a more powerful character than the next chap, is oberoni. If you want to play role zero D&D that's fine, but claiming rule zero is better than rule as written is oberoni.

While I agree with your position on DDO classes (that they shouldn't all be homogenized into the same things with only the class name being different), I don't agree with you about pnp.

First off, at least when I was doing the tabletop thing, the DMG stated clearly that the material in the books should be viewed as guidelines and that the decision of the DM was the only hard and fast thing. Obviously, the DM should value consistency and fairness, but should otherwise be able to conduct the game in his own way.

And secondly, there was never anything in an AD&D or 2nd Ed. rulebook stating how many encounters could happen between rest periods. As I recall, rest periods had to be in the neighborhood of four to eight hours. After sleeping, the wizard had to spend the necessary time to re-commit all of his spells to memory (declaring any changes if applicable). If there was an interruption during any part of this process, there was negative impact on the wizard. Clerics had to do it, too.

It was up to the party to figure out how and when to rest. You generally couldn't just plop down in the middle of a dungeon corridor and have a nap. If the game was to be any kind of challenge, resource management needed to be a large consideration for the adventurers.

[Soleran100]

Yes, I was wrong about this.

I do still feel that barbs self-healing should be cut back 50% (but their DPS left alone), and paladins DPS should be dropped back 20%.

All this pnp talk is so distracting from the point.

I agree that paladins holy sword should maybe be a selector rather then both or put in the tree with cleave who knows and barbs lol barbs are so fa ahead of the curve who knows I haven't played one after the changes.

[Chai]

While I agree with your position on DDO classes (that they shouldn't all be homogenized into the same things with only the class name being different), I don't agree with you about pnp.

First off, at least when I was doing the tabletop thing, the DMG stated clearly that the material in the books should be viewed as guidelines and that the decision of the DM was the only hard and fast thing. Obviously, the DM should value consistency and fairness, but should otherwise be able to conduct the game in his own way.

And secondly, there was never anything in an AD&D or 2nd Ed. rulebook stating how many encounters could happen between rest periods. As I recall, rest periods had to be in the neighborhood of four to eight hours. 6 hours, and not necessarily sleeping After sleeping, the wizard had to spend the necessary time to re-commit all of his spells to memory (declaring any changes if applicable). If there was an interruption during any part of this process, there was negative impact on the wizard. Clerics had to do it, too.

It was up to the party to figure out how and when to rest. You generally couldn't just plop down in the middle of a dungeon corridor and have a nap. If the game was to be any kind of challenge, resource management needed to be a large consideration for the adventurers. this was discussed, and when I brought up a common method for doing so, he said they ruled it out of their campaign

Oh there most certainly was rules for it, all the way back to AD&D, it was just not as well defined as the 3.5E rules were - which is what we are talking about here, as it is what DDO was based on when it first came out.

[Thrudh]

It was up to the party to figure out how and when to rest. You generally couldn't just plop down in the middle of a dungeon corridor and have a nap. If the game was to be any kind of challenge, resource management needed to be a large consideration for the adventurers.

this was discussed, and when I brought up a common method for doing so, he said they ruled it out of their campaign

Rope trick is a way to AVOID resource management.

I guess you must have hated DDO originally when SP was somewhat limited.

[walkin_dude]

Rope trick is a way to AVOID resource management.

I guess you must have hated DDO originally when SP was somewhat limited.

Rope trick lasts an hour per wizard or sorcerer level (according to http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropeTrick.htm). It wouldn't provide enough time for a caster to fully rest up until at least level 10 or 12.

[Funny_looking_mole]

Rope trick lasts an hour per wizard or sorcerer level (according to http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropeTrick.htm). It wouldn't provide enough time for a caster to fully rest up until at least level 10 or 12.

*cough*http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Extend_Spell*cough*

[Bluegirl_Two]

I guess you must have hated DDO originally when SP was somewhat limited.

I played D&D starting with the 1974 edition, continuing through the basic sets, AD&D 1st edition and AD&D 2nd edition. None of them used spell points. All of them used spells per day and every game I ever played in or DM'd always took "per day" to mean a full 24 (or game world equivalent) day.

I think Unearthed Arcana might have included the idea of spell points but I cannot ever remember using them. I always viewed spell points as a necessary kluge to port the game to computers.

Nothing quite like being a L1 character with only 1 spell for the day. Use it you lose it and then you run around the rest of the day trying not to die and promising to polish the warrior's armor or swearing revenge on the thief who was stealing you blind at every opportunity.

[walkin_dude]

*cough*http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Extend_Spell*cough*

Sorry, but again, the D&D I played so long ago didn't have these feats and so forth. We didn't have any way to extend the duration of a spell.

[Sehenry03]

Sorry, but again, the D&D I played so long ago didn't have these feats and so forth. We didn't have any way to extend the duration of a spell.

Yeah I think you were referring to 2nd edition which is what I played. I think they have been referring to 3.5 and newer which does use the new metamagic feats.

[Chai]

Rope trick is a way to AVOID resource management.

As are many other spells.

Bad DM: Sorry dudez, you used your last fireball in that hallway before this 6th encounter and Im going to rule zero and keep throwing mobs at you.
Good player: /use any one of the number of spells which emulate other spells - oh looky, another fireball.

I guess you must have hated DDO originally when SP was somewhat limited.

Another non sequitur.

Limited Sp, that's cute.
You mean the era when I was crit fishing firewalls to burn down 25 trolls at a time in von1 to get my scroll I needed.
Or the era when raids were healed with stacks and stacks of purchasable heal scrolls.
Or the era before that when we farmed shadow crypt using one extended firewall per room
Or the era before that when....something about firewall....hilariously OP......countering any claim of the good ol days when resources were supposedly limited.....
all the way back to.....the first era, when firewall scrolls were sold limitlessly on vendors.

Which of these eras are you referring to? I mean theres nothing like running harbor quests on a level 3 character with a 100 stack of CSW pots, heroism, bulls, bears, cats, remove curse, disease, blindness, poison potions to remind us how important resource management was in this game in the past. #amirite?

Now lets see, just what did my wizard do in those days when resources were "limited" - Oh yeah, he swung a great ax and guzzled limitless potions like it was spring break.

[Chai]

Rope trick lasts an hour per wizard or sorcerer level (according to http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropeTrick.htm). It wouldn't provide enough time for a caster to fully rest up until at least level 10 or 12.

Try level 7. six hours for the rest and some time to prepare spells. That's without extend.

With extend, level 5 (because you need to be level 5 to use level 3 magic)

[FlaviusMaximus]

Well as long as we're discussing proper and improper PnP policies, I'll share that I played many 2nd edition sessions back in the day when we had a wizard appear and offer to let us pull from the Deck of Many Things within five minutes of character creation, because honestly, ***k it.

I was too baked to know when it was my roll half the time anyway.