The 4th combat style in ddo: unarmed

[Delacroix21]

Sev, when are we going to see unarmed dps brought up to par with weapon dps. Unarmed has gotten farther behind each update as more classes/EDs get crit range boosts that work with everything EXCEPT unarmed. You have acknowledged previously that pure monks are lagging behind, and Shintao is the unarmed tree.


Will you consider changing the Shintao tier 5 to +1 crit range on hit (like swashbuckler) instead of +1 crit on being hit? That alone would probably fix the problem.

[Saekee]

Sev, when are we going to see unarmed dps brought up to par with weapon dps. Unarmed has gotten farther behind each update as more classes/EDs get crit range boosts that work with everything EXCEPT unarmed. You have acknowledged previously that pure monks are lagging behind, and Shintao is the unarmed tree.


Will you consider changing the Shintao tier 5 to +1 crit range on hit (like swashbuckler) instead of +1 crit on being hit? That alone would probably fix the problem.

Funny that when I first started playing, no one would have considered Monks to be behind. Full offhand damage coupled with stun ability from a stat that also helps saving throws and AC (which also tended to be very high and still relevant), faster handwrap attack speed. Then with enhancement pass, any monk gets fists of light and shadow veil as well as another 10% offhand strikes. It was like--wow!

BUT then allowing players to add master of forms feats on multiclasses as well as causing the DC of stunning fist to be based on character level changed a lot--add to that keen edge fighter stuff.

I am still not convinced that monks are behind in that they have a great helpless-rendering attack and a nerfed instakiller (QP), an ability that attacks enemies resistant to stunning fist (jade strikes) and excellent defenses (easy to max dodge etc, improved evasion, spell resistance etc). From a missed-chance perspective, they are only sans displacement (which one could do on an elf or a splash)--they are one of the few classes than can get 25% incorporeality. They can even pump up PRR with earth stance even if this is inherently limiting them to one elemental stance.

Unarmed monks do get the TWF line buffs so they technically fall also under that combat style.

that said, I totally agree with your suggestion Delacroix to change the tier 5 of shintao.

[Delacroix21]

Funny that when I first started playing, no one would have considered Monks to be behind. Full offhand damage coupled with stun ability from a stat that also helps saving throws and AC (which also tended to be very high and still relevant), faster handwrap attack speed. Then with enhancement pass, any monk gets fists of light and shadow veil as well as another 10% offhand strikes. It was like--wow!

BUT then allowing players to add master of forms feats on multiclasses as well as causing the DC of stunning fist to be based on character level changed a lot--add to that keen edge fighter stuff.

I am still not convinced that monks are behind in that they have a great helpless-rendering attack and a nerfed instakiller (QP), an ability that attacks enemies resistant to stunning fist (jade strikes) and excellent defenses (easy to max dodge etc, improved evasion, spell resistance etc). From a missed-chance perspective, they are only sans displacement (which one could do on an elf or a splash)--they are one of the few classes than can get 25% incorporeality. They can even pump up PRR with earth stance even if this is inherently limiting them to one elemental stance.

Unarmed monks do get the TWF line buffs so they technically fall also under that combat style.

that said, I totally agree with your suggestion Delacroix to change the tier 5 of shintao.

I LOVE monks, I always try to play them in every dnd game. But I am also a power gamer, and all the best builds I can make (very high survivability and very high dps) don't use unarmed, as it is too inferior.

I sure hope the shintao tier 5 gets changed, as it does nothing for you if the mob is stunned or a group of mobs are held by a caster. It is ridiculously inferior compared to the swashbuckling version.

[Saekee]

I LOVE monks, I always try to play them in every dnd game. But I am also a power gamer, and all the best builds I can make (very high survivability and very high dps) don't use unarmed, as it is too inferior.

I sure hope the shintao tier 5 gets changed, as it does nothing for you if the mob is stunned or a group of mobs are held by a caster. It is ridiculously inferior compared to the swashbuckling version.

yes but the swashbuckling Tier 5 is overpowered, even a mistake (although when I get around to running a bard, I would take the Warchanter freeze path since it can affect enemies resistant to CDG. But then, I do not think I will ever get there as I am stuck on my current monk splash build). I would not use that as a standard or everything will seem like weaksauce. Sev mentioned in the assassin feedback thread that the developers admitted that the experiment with an insta-kill based upon a skill would not be repeated.

[Delacroix21]

yes but the swashbuckling Tier 5 is overpowered, even a mistake (although when I get around to running a bard, I would take the Warchanter freeze path since it can affect enemies resistant to CDG. But then, I do not think I will ever get there as I am stuck on my current monk splash build). I would not use that as a standard or everything will seem like weaksauce. Sev mentioned in the assassin feedback thread that the developers admitted that the experiment with an insta-kill based upon a skill would not be repeated.

People talk about insta kills, but they are meaningless. They only work on trash mobs, that a decent toon should be able burn down in just a few seconds. As for swash tier 5 being OP I don't think so, as smashes are not the highest dps builds in ddo) nor are they the 2nd highest, or third highest.

[Saekee]

Every class can get 25% conceal due to shadow dancer.
Wizzards get 35% conceal, and every class has ability to use shadow cookies for a 1minute long shadowdaner form.
I personally value only the invisi portîon of veil to be honest.
Maxing dodge will be easier as rogue tho after this update, rogue will be the master of dodge, and monks became from op to uhm something.
They are sitll ok, but they fall behind unless a tree build

Also keep a simple thing in mind, a barb in gmaster of flowers or a barb using handwraps with dumb animation in blitz will outdps a monk based on wraps combat.

That is sad imo

that is fair Blackheartox re incorporeality in shadowdancer but then you must run in SD to have it. Which everyone says is a crappy destiny.
Wizards get the 35% incorp if they are in pale master form; yes that makes them quite nice especially now that they are popping on heavy armor and adding displacement as well.
Shadow cookies--that is compensatory for what a class lacks and hardly sustainable.

Interesting though what you say re barbarian. But then being a monk is not all about DPS--survivability, some team buffs etc.

[Rhysem]

yes but the swashbuckling Tier 5 is overpowered, even a mistake (although when I get around to running a bard, I would take the Warchanter freeze path since it can affect enemies resistant to CDG. But then, I do not think I will ever get there as I am stuck on my current monk splash build). I would not use that as a standard or everything will seem like weaksauce. Sev mentioned in the assassin feedback thread that the developers admitted that the experiment with an insta-kill based upon a skill would not be repeated.

CDG isn't all the hotness of swash. The hotness of swash is it gets broken at level 4 and doesn't let up.

My gear is not especially great (either for the monk or the swash), but I tr'd from a monk and let me tell you swash >>> monk. If swash isn't #1, then that just makes monk that much further behind -- and they aren't bringing any utility with them really.

[Delacroix21]

There have been some good points made here, as well as a wonderful dps breakdown vs Melee. Moving forward for the Devs lets provide them ideas as well as narrow down what needs to be buffed. I will start:

1. I believe unarmed needs to be completely recoded. Adding the damage to the character and not just making hand wraps a "weapon", that uses its own animations was a horrible idea, and has caused tons of issues with things not working for hand wraps, no greensteel hand wraps (back when greensteel was the best in the game), forcing monks to farm a hard to pug raid ToD to bring hand wraps closer (but still far away from) other Melee weapons. Recode hand wraps as a weapon, the same as holding a dagger/club/staff, and just tie the unarmed animations to them (just as axes/mauls have an animation tied to them vs greatswords). Once it is coded as a weapon, everything that works for weapons will work on hand Wraps! (CRot enhancers, etc.) of course this will mean disabling ToD rings, but all monks will happily give up using level 18 rings at level 28.


2. Once hand wraps are coded properly, the next thing is to fix their dps. Unarmed has the WORST crit profile in ddo, one of the Lowest damage dies (d6, which makes a BIG difference when using +5w skills etc.), but it has always been this way in dnd. What made unarmed still viable in dnd was its base damage! At level 20 a monk would deal 1d20 with his fists while the other Melee would be stuck with the same 2d6 great axe. That was helped balance unarmed, but not completely. Unarmed needed a further buff and got it through a higher attack rate with flurry of blows. Ddo completely threw out both advantages where unarmed has only a fraction more attacks per min then SWF/TWF, and deals LESS damage per swing then two-handed weapons (thunderforged greatsword 4.5w2d6: 9d6, vs monk 8d6). This is even worse with attacks that use +W as +5W on a greatsword becomes 9.5w2d6: 19d6 vs monk 13d6. All the while having a horrible crit range and multiplier. Solution: make monk level 20 BASE damage the 1d20 it was supposed to be, and +W effects increase this 20 sided die vs a lousy 6 sided die. So the same thunderforge hand wraps now become 4.5W1d20. Unarmed needs high base damage to make up for its horrible crit profile.


3. Monk survivability isn't what it once was with the inclusion of PRR and monks aren't even the AC Kings of ddo anymore to compensate. Now a simple fix would be to add 5prr to every monk AC increase, for a total of 25prr, but I don't think we should go that route. We should stick with the concept of monks not being hit as often, but hit for more when they are. To accomplish that, I see 2 changes: first is change monk AC increases from 3 to 5 (for +25 instead of +15 at 20), 10 AC inst much but that's a good thing. The other change is to change earth stance from +20% AC to +30%, I am totally fine with removing the +1 crit multi on 19-20, as the dps this adds is minuscule at best. This will give all monk builds a tiny boost, and tanking builds (earth stance) a bigger boost.


4. Another change is to fix the 2 monk stances no one uses (or at least shouldn't be using)= air and fire stance. Air stance is worthless, you can get the same attack speed from +speed items and doesn't stack, just as bad is the doublestrike which surprise suprise doesn't stack with items either. Change air stance to a STACKING 15% speed at grandmaster, the doublestrike changed to a bonus that stacks with anything. Next is fire stance, the other supposed "dps" stance that falls utterly short. The only dps Fire stance gives is the 4 strength, which is a whopping 2 damage! The extra ki on hit isn't really usefull until we get more ways to turn ki into dps (that will be discussed in point 5). Instead fire stance should add +.5w per tier, for +2w at grandmaster (remember with the above changes +2w won't add only +2d6 anymore, but +2d20!)


5. The final change is to improve the monk epic destiny: GMoF. Now this tree is preety solid EXCEPT for the unscaling petal strikes, that interrupt your attack sequence and actually LOWER dps. The simple change for this is to allow these to scale with Melee power, and then remove the casting animation of the first 2 petal strikes and make them like monk elemental strikes: instant cast and don't interrupt your attacks. This will also be a proxy buff to fire stance, as now the extra +ki on hit will have a use! The other minor change is to adjust the +1/2wisdom modifier to the DCs of all the abilities in the ED to +full wisdom modifier, which will help them actually not be saved against aside from on EN difficulty. On live few if any monks have 60 wisdom, which makes petal DCs at 28 a 50 (10+28+12) which we all know is a joke on EH let alone EE. The next change involves everything is nothing. For one raid (lloth) this was considered usefull, now it's a joke compared to other characters insta killing left and right. A wail of the banshe on a 5min cooldown is not usefull. Instead the cooldown should be 1 minute, with the charging of 25 strikes removed. A 1 minute cooldown will mean monks will use this often, but not get them even close to true insta kill classes.


Thank you for your time and consideration of these points, I honestly do appreciate it.

[Blackheartox]

Funny that when I first started playing, no one would have considered Monks to be behind. Full offhand damage coupled with stun ability from a stat that also helps saving throws and AC (which also tended to be very high and still relevant), faster handwrap attack speed. Then with enhancement pass, any monk gets fists of light and shadow veil as well as another 10% offhand strikes. It was like--wow!

BUT then allowing players to add master of forms feats on multiclasses as well as causing the DC of stunning fist to be based on character level changed a lot--add to that keen edge fighter stuff.

I am still not convinced that monks are behind in that they have a great helpless-rendering attack and a nerfed instakiller (QP), an ability that attacks enemies resistant to stunning fist (jade strikes) and excellent defenses (easy to max dodge etc, improved evasion, spell resistance etc). From a missed-chance perspective, they are only sans displacement (which one could do on an elf or a splash)--they are one of the few classes than can get 25% incorporeality. They can even pump up PRR with earth stance even if this is inherently limiting them to one elemental stance.

Unarmed monks do get the TWF line buffs so they technically fall also under that combat style.

that said, I totally agree with your suggestion Delacroix to change the tier 5 of shintao.

Every class can get 25% conceal due to shadow dancer.
Wizzards get 35% conceal, and every class has ability to use shadow cookies for a 1minute long shadowdaner form.
I personally value only the invisi portîon of veil to be honest.
Maxing dodge will be easier as rogue tho after this update, rogue will be the master of dodge, and monks became from op to uhm something.
They are sitll ok, but they fall behind unless a tree build

Also keep a simple thing in mind, a barb in gmaster of flowers or a barb using handwraps with dumb animation in blitz will outdps a monk based on wraps combat.

That is sad imo

[Seikojin]

Sev, when are we going to see unarmed dps brought up to par with weapon dps. Unarmed has gotten farther behind each update as more classes/EDs get crit range boosts that work with everything EXCEPT unarmed. You have acknowledged previously that pure monks are lagging behind, and Shintao is the unarmed tree.


Will you consider changing the Shintao tier 5 to +1 crit range on hit (like swashbuckler) instead of +1 crit on being hit? That alone would probably fix the problem.

LOL

Probably after wraps become bludgeon weapons.