Ranged pass, but no ranged power to ranged feats?

[maddong]

I'd give archer's focus +10 ranged power while it is active (from precise shot). IPS is too good.

Great work on the adjustments!

[BMurph]

Would the throwing weapons feat line be getting ranged power as well when it comes out or would it be considered too useful to be getting RP as well? Also on that line, when would the throwing feat line be coming out? Haven't heard much talk of them from when it had last been briefly mentioned some odd months ago. =/

[flagged]

All the Thrown weapon focuses and specializations are granting Ranged Power increases, and they stack with Ranged weapon versions and take effect whether you are holding a bow or a throwing weapon. Combined with shot on the run they could provide a total Ranged power of 23 by lev 20.

[BMurph]

No not the weapon focus/specialization lines, that's already been explained. I'm talking about the brief mention that the devs made before about a feat line for throwing weapons akin to a line like thf or swf.

[Wizza]

We're willing for you guys to convince us that other ranged feats are not worthwhile and need a buff. A "pass" on ranged feats doesn't mean they all get better or automatically get ranged power. That's not how balancing works.

So far we're not convinced that Precision, Precise Shot, IPS, or Point Blank Shot are bad feats that aren't worth taking. (Nor that Precision is a ranged feat, but that's just quibbling.)

There are other changes for ranged that are not done yet, however.

Yeah because SWF feat lines needed the Melee Power added to make people take them Or Legendary Dreadnought.

Your hate for ranged combat is delicious.

[Requiro]

(...)We're willing for you guys to convince us that other ranged feats are not worthwhile and need a buff.(...)

Power Critical - Completely useless feat. Just too little power for the feat.
Changes suggestion: Scale with BAB: On every 4 BAB you gain

• +1 bonus to confirms critical hits
• +1 bonus to critical hit damage
• +1 melee and ranged power with critical hits

Shot on the Run - This feat require 2 other almost useless for ranged combat feats - Dodge and Mobility. While dodge ability is overall nice, for Ranged toon is not what you generally want. Adding 3% more power is not what you want for 3 feats (not including PBS)
Nice and well scaling solution:

• Add Precise Shot as prerequisite (This will not be a problem, most Ranged Toons take this feat anyway)
• Shot on the run - Allow stacks on Archer's Focus while moving to maximum 3-4 stacks
• 2 or 3 Passive ranged power – 2 with PBS improvements (below) or 3 without PBS improvements

Point Blank Shot (PBS) – This feat should help Ranged Players stay cool when enemy will come too close. For low levels, the most powerful is +1[W]. Later this feat is useful mostly because Enhancements upgrade and Sneak Attacks. 1 Ranged Power improvement, will not unbalance it. But improve overall Ranged Players a bit, when they become targets. (And maybe they will not freak out so often)

(...)There are other changes for ranged that are not done yet, however.(...)

Maybe some Ranger Ranged Pass? :-)
If yes, I made some ideas, that I hope will be some inspiration to changes :-)

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ncements-pass)

All the Thrown weapon focuses and specializations are granting Ranged Power increases, and they stack with Ranged weapon versions and take effect whether you are holding a bow or a throwing weapon. Combined with shot on the run they could provide a total Ranged power of 23 by lev 20.

For 23 Ranged power this will use 14 feat slots. Or 10 if you dump Shot on the Run feat. So... Yes - For Pure Ranged Fighters this is nice improvement (mostly because there is no other Ranged Feats available)
But what about the rest?

[Vargouille]

Varg, the TWF, SWF, THF, and Shield lines of feats all have +melee power. Just about every single melee build takes one or more of those lines of feats. Whether the other ranged feats are not worthwhile seems to be the wrong consideration here. A melee will take one of those lines, just as a ranged toon will take the PS, IPS, PBS line generally. Balance would seem to me to give the same +ranged power that melees get.

We'll just have to disagree. Just because some things get a certain kind of buff doesn't mean all things should receive that kind of buff. It's nice when math elegantly lines up in symmetrical ways, but that's not a reason for adding power. The reason to add power is because something needs power, not because of symmetry alone.

I don't think it's a valid point to say there are other changes that are not done and YOU DON'T KNOW ABOUT THEM so what we've done is balanced. I can only comment on what's in front of me, not what you're thinking about doing or will be doing later.

We weren't trying to make "valid points". We're being open and informative. Just talking here, not debating. You can debate if you want, of course, but that doesn't mean we're doing the same.

It seemed relevant to agree with others that "we're not done yet", since others brought it up specifically.

Power Critical - Completely useless feat. Just too little power for the feat.
Changes suggestion: Scale with BAB: On every 4 BAB you gain

• +1 bonus to confirms critical hits
• +1 bonus to critical hit damage
• +1 melee and ranged power with critical hits

We might look into Power Critical at some point, but it's not inherently part of a ranged pass per se. It's also quite obviously not useless.

Shot on the Run - This feat require 2 other almost useless for ranged combat feats - Dodge and Mobility. While dodge ability is overall nice, for Ranged toon is not what you generally want. Adding 3% more power is not what you want for 3 feats (not including PBS)

If you don't desire dodge at all, you probably shouldn't take Shot on the Run. It's clearly SotR that gives 3% more damage, not three feats.

If ranged characters don't value Dodge at all, that's something different we should try to fix.

Point Blank Shot (PBS)

– This feat should help Ranged Players stay cool when enemy will come too close. For low levels, the most powerful is +1[W]. Later this feat is useful mostly because Enhancements upgrade and Sneak Attacks. 1 Ranged Power improvement, will not unbalance it. But improve overall Ranged Players a bit, when they become targets. (And maybe they will not freak out so often)

This still gives +1[W] all the time (when nearby, which isn't that hard to manage). That's very strong. Many other ranged feats dream of being this good. (We have decided to not nerf it to bring it in line with most other feats, though.)

Maybe some Ranger Ranged Pass? :-)

Rangers are prominently one of the places we haven't touched yet.

[Wizza]

We'll just have to disagree. Just because some things get a certain kind of buff doesn't mean all things should receive that kind of buff. It's nice when math elegantly lines up in symmetrical ways, but that's not a reason for adding power. The reason to add power is because something needs power, not because of symmetry alone.


We weren't trying to make "valid points". We're being open and informative. Just talking here, not debating. You can debate if you want, of course, but that doesn't mean we're doing the same.

Are you really saying that Melees and Legendary Dreadnought needed more power? Granted, you first added Melee Power togheter with Pala changes so you clearly didn't know how that was going to come in play (and at that time, Melee certainly needed a bit of help) and then the Barbarian and Bards changes happened but still, once you saw how "overperforming" every melee was (and IS still) doing, you should have rolled some back.

[Seikojin]

Are you really saying that Melees and Legendary Dreadnought needed more power? Granted, you first added Melee Power togheter with Pala changes so you clearly didn't know how that was going to come in play (and at that time, Melee certainly needed a bit of help) and then the Barbarian and Bards changes happened but still, once you saw how "overperforming" every melee was (and IS still) doing, you should have rolled some back.

Unless there is a level for end game that they are designing towards that you do not see.

Ultimately it is about the end game. Until lvl 30 is out for a bit, all of this is theorycrafting.

[Seikojin]

Of all the feats you listed in your previous post, I don't have Superior Weapon Focus or Shot on the Run. I have the rest.

Screenshot then and bug it. Unless they are offering the same type in places.

[Jumpnshoot]

We'll just have to disagree. Just because some things get a certain kind of buff doesn't mean all things should receive that kind of buff. It's nice when math elegantly lines up in symmetrical ways, but that's not a reason for adding power. The reason to add power is because something needs power, not because of symmetry alone.


We weren't trying to make "valid points". We're being open and informative. Just talking here, not debating. You can debate if you want, of course, but that doesn't mean we're doing the same.

It seemed relevant to agree with others that "we're not done yet", since others brought it up specifically.

Then I would argue that ranged stuff needs power given that the current top builds are all melees and take some form of SWF/TWF/THF/Shield line.

While I very much appreciate the open and informative and how much more the devs are communicating, it's still true that without knowing what else is in the soon(tm) category, it's hard for me to be able to say that I don't think the ranged feats need the same love. If there was some indication of what else you're thinking about doing, then yes, I might be able to say that you're right and I agree. The point is simply that I'm operating on incomplete information and what information I do have disagrees with your assessment. So far the "we're not done yet" hasn't convinced me that the PBS/PS/IPS line shouldn't get the same love. So far the two reasons I've heard against it are: 1) we're not done yet and 2) we want to buff underperforming and not taken feats. I believe I addressed both points. You asked for our feedback and to convince you that the ranged feats need a buff. I am addressing the two points you made as to why you think they don't.

Regardless, I appreciate the communication.

[barecm]

I have to agree with some here in regards to SoTR. Back in the day, it was required to be a bow user. In fact, I can remember having to go 9 ranger 1 fighter just to get the feats I needed for SoTR. Since the movement penalty was lifted, SoTR became useless; which was a long, long time ago. SoTR should carry a bit more than just 3 melee power and +4 to hit. I think SoTR should be focused on giving a bonus to shooting on the run, which in my mind is to give moving rangers back their attack chain bonuses. This is what Shot on the run should be, no? I am not sure how ranged power is achieve by a feat that in name indicates giving us a bonus to shooting while running when the original two penalties were -4 to hit and no attack chain bonus while moving. Having to take dodge and mobility first makes this yet again a worthless feat for rangers. I would think that every ranger out there would rather get the easier weapon focuses ranger and power critical and something like quicken or extend. Maybe even medium and heavy armor since heavy armor is better than evade right now.

[barecm]

If you don't desire dodge at all, you probably shouldn't take Shot on the Run. It's clearly SotR that gives 3% more damage, not three feats.

If ranged characters don't value Dodge at all, that's something different we should try to fix.

It is more that mobility is totally useless for ranged rangers (and most toons in fact) and dodge is only nice little benefit of 3% dodge, but certainly not crucial to any ranged builds. The entire package of having to take both in order to take a third feat to get +3 ranged power is where the fail is; not dodge as a feat by itself.

The simple math is that something that takes 1 feat to acquire like weapon focused: ranged give +2 ranged power and then SoTR takes 3 feats to acquire and only gives +3. That seems a bit too much of a feat sink for anyone to take imho. You are much better served taking weapon focused: ranged and use your other feats for better ROI. It really needs to be bumped to +6 at the minimum or ideally +9 and then it becomes something folks may invest in to acquire.

[Thar]

We might look into Power Critical at some point, but it's not inherently part of a ranged pass per se. It's also quite obviously not useless.

If you don't desire dodge at all, you probably shouldn't take Shot on the Run. It's clearly SotR that gives 3% more damage, not three feats.

If ranged characters don't value Dodge at all, that's something different we should try to fix.

.

Does power critical stack? i've been told from long ago it was useful and didn't see any use at that time (like years ago...)

Shot on the run doesn't say it gives dodge in the description, are you thinking of sprint attack or is this a stealth buff?

[Thar]

It is more that mobility is totally useless for ranged rangers (and most toons in fact) and dodge is only nice little benefit of 3% dodge, but certainly not crucial to any ranged builds. The entire package of having to take both in order to take a third feat to get +3 ranged power is where the fail is; not dodge as a feat by itself.

The simple math is that something that takes 1 feat to acquire like weapon focused: ranged give +2 ranged power and then SoTR takes 3 feats to acquire and only gives +3. That seems a bit too much of a feat sink for anyone to take imho. You are much better served taking weapon focused: ranged and use your other feats for better ROI. It really needs to be bumped to +6 at the minimum or ideally +9 and then it becomes something folks may invest in to acquire.

mobility isn't useless but more of a factor on more heavily armored toonss and gives another 2% dodge which helps get you to the cap.

putting the power into other feats gives fighters an advantage as they can stack up the melee/ranged power. you'll see fighters will be better than rangers at ranged combat and have heavy armor. lose rangers...

[barecm]

mobility isn't useless but more of a factor on more heavily armored toonss and gives another 2% dodge which helps get you to the cap.

putting the power into other feats gives fighters an advantage as they can stack up the melee/ranged power. you'll see fighters will be better than rangers at ranged combat and have heavy armor. lose rangers...

I agree somewhat. Currently I can build a pure ranger that has several discretionary feats. You really only have to take PBS and imp critical. You will want to take precision and weapon focused ranged. Other than that, you can choose to sink 3 feats into getting SoTR, but you definitely will not get the bang for your buck considering it is only 3 ranged power. I would think you are going to invest into something like empower healing and quicken or even imp critical slashing and power critical. There are enough feats to work in SoTR, but the question I have is do I sink 3 feats for a grand total of 3 ranged power? Considering the limited usefulness of dodge and mobility, I do not see that as a useful option since I can get a whole lot more from choosing other feats instead. With everything in this game, the juice must be worth the squeeze. It goes for quests/loot/XP as well as feat investments and builds. SoTR as proposed is not worth the squeeze imho.

[EllisDee37]

Shot on the run doesn't say it gives dodge in the description, are you thinking of sprint attack or is this a stealth buff?

He was talking about the prereq feats, which are dodge, mobility and point blank shot.

[Vargouille]

Does power critical stack? i've been told from long ago it was useful and didn't see any use at that time (like years ago...)

To the best of my knowledge Power Critical stacks with everything and always has. This is the first time I've heard even an inkling that it did not. It doesn't currently have a bonus type - many feats don't even have a place to fill in a bonus type, they just give a bonus, and I'm fairly certain this is true for Power Critical.

Shot on the run doesn't say it gives dodge in the description, are you thinking of sprint attack or is this a stealth buff?

He was talking about the prereq feats, which are dodge, mobility and point blank shot.

Correct, as others had brought up.

[Thar]

To the best of my knowledge Power Critical stacks with everything and always has. This is the first time I've heard even an inkling that it did not. It doesn't currently have a bonus type - many feats don't even have a place to fill in a bonus type, they just give a bonus, and I'm fairly certain this is true for Power Critical.



Correct, as others had brought up.

ok, i haven't used it in a long time. people used to go crazy for exceptional seeker to get more damage on a crit. this always made me question why they would say this is junk. I'll have to go test on lam..

[Thar]

I agree somewhat. Currently I can build a pure ranger that has several discretionary feats. You really only have to take PBS and imp critical. You will want to take precision and weapon focused ranged. Other than that, you can choose to sink 3 feats into getting SoTR, but you definitely will not get the bang for your buck considering it is only 3 ranged power. I would think you are going to invest into something like empower healing and quicken or even imp critical slashing and power critical. There are enough feats to work in SoTR, but the question I have is do I sink 3 feats for a grand total of 3 ranged power? Considering the limited usefulness of dodge and mobility, I do not see that as a useful option since I can get a whole lot more from choosing other feats instead. With everything in this game, the juice must be worth the squeeze. It goes for quests/loot/XP as well as feat investments and builds. SoTR as proposed is not worth the squeeze imho.

Dodge is definately not useless on a light armor character. it's just not the end all be all of PRR/MRR. so it is better to just spend the feat on armor proficiency, highly debateable to have a heavy armor ranger at the moment.