Temple of Elemental Evil: Round 2 Feedback!

[Cordovan]

We've done some polishing on the Temple of Elemental Evil in the new Lamannia build that went up today (Friday, March 27th.) If you are interested, please take a look and give us your feedback!

[Nascoe]

Ok, I've been in there about 20 minutes now with my rogue mechanic - IMO solid job on the improved tree and yay, suddenly it makes sense to use those great crossbows (I got pretty decent damage with the one from Korthos and improved crit range enhanced with sniper)

If I am not mistaken, it seems you might have fixed the map blackening up between areas in the dungeon too and the enemies, while still mostly one or two shotted on my lvl 14 mechanic (running on HN) are not complete pushovers. Still think they could use some more oomph (I will test with more lvl appropriate ones)

P.S. looks like the archers are not mostly remembering to use their bows from what I have seen. But they still drop their treasure/collectible bags (got one from an orc, forgot exactly which one, will keep a look out for them).

[Equatis]

I ran ToEE on EN on my capped assassin just because I'm interested in seeing what changes were made, the monsters I ran into were definitely hitting harder and that's good. I just played around for a short while as I was short on time. But I did notice something that I believe is not WAI in the room with the ballista.

Location: r2 lx1912 ly2024 i26 cInside ox-165.96 oy309.44 oz-249.41 h219.4 Q:0x70026D5A

I sneaked past the ballista located here ( hide 107 / move silent 108 ) and assassinated the guards. Then the unmanned ballista fired on it's own at hireling Erytheia Sundawn when I called her to come and join me from the hall the ballista is aimed at. I had parked her back around the corner of the hall to ensure the guards would not fire as I sneaked across the bridge and past the ballista to kill them. I don't believe an unmanned ballista should be firing on it's own.

[Nascoe]

Running with my 9th lvl rogue acrobat (halfling) on HN (light armor provides just 10 PRR, 15 MRR). I spent a good 90 minutes (rather 2 hours) in here just on the first lvl of quest 1.

- the dialog of the ranging Bandit out in the temple grounds (nothing lost, nothing gained) now properly closes
- Thank you for adding map notes. It seems the two green "stars" for entering the Temple and getting back to the Hall of Heroes on the first map are a little bit to the left of where they should be in the map view (or rather the map is aligned a little bit to the right, as when I stand in front of the temple door, I am on the marker, but the temple is further to the right in the map)
- the map now stays cleared when jumping between secttions. It still resets when you go into lvl 3 and then back up to lvl 2 and 1 though.
-Base XP for HN 4.281 XP - Its not going to be one for the XP/min, but when we get more and more from slayer when we spend some time in here, its going to add up enough to be a fun run, I guess.

- the monsters mostly seem to be ok-ish for HN, although personally I feel they could still get a little bit beefed up, for example
The Gargoyle colossus (at: r2 lx1912 ly2024 i16 cInside ox11.46 oy263.48 oz-249.39 h19.7) went down after 186 damage in a few wacks. He managed to hit me one time for a total of 5 dmg (probably 1 further hit averted by using bluff on him) - this guy needs to pack some more punch and don't hesitate to give him double/triple HP to make us feel like we earnt it. The other gargoyles could use a bit more too IMO (about 110-120 HP and they hardly got a chance to hit me at all).
When I tried and let the temple Gargoyle hit me, each of his hands hit for 2-6 dmg (slash damage, is that correct?)
- Maybe you want to up the trap DCs a bit. I got them with a roll of 32 which seems quite easy (8+24 on an acrobat who just put in DD points every lvl) - preassure plate at at: r2 lx1912 ly2024 i16 cInside ox-25.20 oy250.99 oz-249.45 h230.6. Also they are easily evaded and hit for only relatively minor damage at this lvl
- I like how generous you are with trap parts though (I got 6 cold parts from that one) - I will have to get into making some traps now :-)

- The brittleskin thing seems to work fine, if you jump into the middle of the action it shows up clearly with timer. The effect does not seem to be too hurting at this lvl, altough I might have to try it at a higher difficulty.

- In an obscure corner I found a coffin that does open, but behaves as if you can't break it (you can target it, but not hurt it)at: r2 lx1912 ly2024 i16 cInside ox31.67 oy504.83 oz-249.45 h102.7

- oops, found a bowman Temple guard who still uses his bow to melee me instead of keeping his distance and shooting arrows (at: r2 lx1912 ly2024 i16 cInside ox-8.97 oy448.84 oz-249.45 h308.0)
- Those temple guards still hit for only 2-4 damage, that is too low even for heroic normal (the cultists seem to have been boosted more)
- The earth elementals in the Earth temple could do with upping their damage a bit and I think you boost their HP a again too on HN to make us really consider the alternative solution to beating them. Also it feels a bit exploity to just wait untill they try to earthgrab me (mostly I save with a reflex save of only 20+8) and attack them from the back/flank while they are hunkered down doing that for 3-6 seconds. I liked them more when they were still incredibly hard, because It made me feel clever for having brought the club.
- Romag is still a pushover on HN, I had his 140 HP down before he even managed to get an attack off (only thing he managed to do was cast deathward on himself). Give him some elemental guards, loan some champion buffs /debuffs and let him cast a firewall or acid fog or something etc to keep us from getting close to him immediately.

- one rare red named orge mage (Nar' Azmat - at: r2 lx1912 ly2024 i16 cInside ox-148.18 oy203.54 oz-249.45 h75.9) seemed to appear but then faded out. His chest stayed there but was locked. He appeared again when I went back there for the 3rd time after killing the ogre leader (see below) and his chest worked - it also offered me a "rusty gilled mushroom"
- the chest for the ogre leader (at: r2 lx1912 ly2024 i16 cInside ox-123.72 oy237.83 oz-249.45 h275.6) worked fine this time - got that one after I killed him.
The ogre commander not far from there (at app: r2 lx1912 ly2024 i16 cInside ox-125.59 oy212.35 oz-249.39 h14.1) however did not have a chest, is that WAI?
- thanks for making the braziers brakeable over here (seems they are breakable all over the temple except for 2 at: r2 lx1912 ly2024 i16 cInside ox-72.94 oy122.68 oz-249.40 h202.5 and one in the fire temple at: r2 lx1896 ly2024 i16 cInside ox528.59 oy62.56 oz-248.76 h341.7)
- the secret doors DC is fine now, I could find a lot of them with a search skill of 24 and spot 18 warned me of all of them.
- Is it WAI that I can disable the beartraps with rolling a 1 (for a total of 24) - at: r2 lx1912 ly2024 i16 cInside ox-234.06 oy399.17 oz-249.45 h122.3

- the temple guards at: r2 lx1912 ly2024 i16 cInside ox-100.17 oy285.31 oz-249.45 h21.1 had trouble noticing me even close up until about 5-10 feet when not sneaking, not sure that is WAI.
- those "nodeborn sand mephits" with acid arrows and abrasive breath were a nice touch (at: r2 lx1912 ly2024 i16 cInside ox-69.05 oy344.97 oz-249.45 h60.5)
- The medusa S'Kara (at: r2 lx1912 ly2024 i16 cInside ox-97.50 oy354.24 oz-249.39 h206.7) looked interesting, but I am not sure she ever hit me with her effects. Or was she still talking while I hit her a couple of times (some 355 HP?) and killed her without ever attacking, you might want to look into that.


- Earth Temple elementals were showing up in my MM, The sand mephits not yet. I did see most humans (Bandit arcane, Trapper, ranging bandit, Romag, Roving bandit, Temple cleric, Temple cultist, Temple guard, Temple Warrior). The undead are still missing, as were the gargoyles. But the living pool does get a memorable place (curious, why are water elementals not in any MM?)
- Is it WAI that you can avoid the living pool from hitting you by climbing on the altar/stone where the key is on? True enough the cube is hard to beat down with Melee in the small room. Nice quest idea with the pool

I love those salamanders (fire temple), they really pack a punch even on HN. Good, that is the level of challenge you should throw at us.
- found an Orc Sentry dropping a treasure bag (at: r2 lx1896 ly2024 i16 cInside ox504.19 oy353.38 oz-249.13 h338.9)
- the red named swordbeak at: r2 lx1896 ly2024 i16 cInside ox372.98 oy120.32 oz-249.45 h140.6 does not have a chest, is that WAI?

- I would love it if my rogue (or an arty) could "dismantle" the ballista and take it away as a great crossbow or heavy repeater! That would be a lovely named item. Even if we had to do it piece for piece (i.e. craft it).

Overall it seemed to be quite a bit more filled (nice touch with the randomly appearing chests / vases too) and monsters do hit for more than in the first pass. I still think their HP can be upped a bit and they should get considerably more damage, because when most attacks hit only for 2-8 damage while we regularly get hits ranging from 25-48 or crit for almost 100 at this lvl that is not balanced to make it feel like a bit of a challenge. I think the mobs should hit at least for double digits with their melee attacks and spells.

[Wizza]

Absolutely, disgusting, ridicolous changes. The run was on Epic Elite. Let me go on them one by one:

You REALLY REALLY borked the ranged damage of this quest.

1) Archers are now the most dangerous mobs in the game. They hit for 200+ (200!!!!!) damage with 40% damage reduction from 68 PRR caster. And you encounter at least 6-10 of them EACH AND EVERY ENCOUNTER in part 1. Ridicolous.
2) Goristro barbarian can LITERALLY one shot casters with their throw attack. STILL a sack of HP too.

(Combat): Goristro Barbarian hit you for 967 points of bludgeon damage.
(Combat): Goristro Barbarian hit you for 984 points of bludgeon damage.

EDIT: Just to make it clear, the damage from the throw attack is fine since it's actually slow and can be avoided by just running around but I don't quite like that, in the end fight, a bad combination of spells like Earthquake or the Destruction wave where you can't move and his throw attack can make you killed like that. Doesn't change the fact that he has way too many HP.

3) Endfight in part 2 had Hezrous and Dretches ranged damage each doing OVER 200 damage. At some point, my friend and I wondered "are there invisible archers or what?". Their ranged animation are just similar to arrows. Imagine 3 150k HP Hezrous, 10 dretches and 1 Goristro spamming ranged attack. Yeah, it was annoying. The Goristro in this fight is just stupid.
4) At some points, mobs saw through invisibility with no buffs when examined. Noticed this occuring 3-4 times. Also, some random mob non-champion had See Invisibility randomly.
5) Why do we have to use doors now?

6) Earth temple:

- Earth Elementals hit for way too much, ignore displacement and STILL are a sack of HP.

(Combat): Earth Temple Elemental hit you for 537 points of bludgeon damage.

- Rowag was doing more Melee damage than with Spells.

7) Fire temple:

- Insta red alert if you start the fight
- The boss is a kite fest since he hits you for 300+ for each damage and is super fast
- Salamanders cannot be CCed with over 70 DC, debuffs included, but I'll get to the saves later.


8) Water temple:

- Gelatinous Cube was doing 10 dmg per tick. The most BORING boss ever. Of course, 200k HP or something around that probably.

9) Air Temple:

- Kelno also doing more damage in Melee than with spells. His KD is annoying.

10) Something is screwy about mobs' aggro. They aggro even when they are FAR away and we are in a different room.
11) Insta red alert on the beginning of part 2 as well.
12) The XP is horrible. 49k for part 1, really?

13) On the new debuff: My friend and I have noticed a whole total of..ZERO MOBS USING THIS DEBUFF. And we killed a lot of them, counting we spent more than 3 hours tonight in the quests.



Let's get to the main issue, once again, SAVES:


Everything is STILL saving EVERY.SINGLE.SPELL. Cultists are saving from my spells, Earth Elementals in the Earth temple are saving from it, CCed mobs on top of Solid fog and Waves of Exhaustion and 65 DC are saving from them.

Kelno was saving from every single spell, Gargoyles were saving from them. Archers well, they are archers..AND THEY ARE EVERYWHERE. Every red named was saving from my spells. Archers cannot be CCed as well on top of Mind fog and Crushing Despair, Salamanders idem, Hezrous and Dretches not even close.

You still need to work A LOT on the saves because right now it's absolutely annoying and actually frustrating to play as a Caster in this quest. My friend can confirm: I've never been so frustrated with a quest like I was tonight. Every single thing in this quest punishes Casters and low PRR toons, from archers hitting for 200 with every hit, to mobs having insane Saves, to the few shrines (still no shrine before part 2 endfight?).

Here is a log of my chat, when I tried to cast spells (you know, I'm a caster, that's what I do):



Every spell is Lightning bolt, and it can rebound. Every rebound was saved as well. No spells were casted in between. When I said in chat "lets debuff", he still kept saving to every single spell. This was with 65 Evocation DC + Waves of Exhaustion + Solid Fog, effectively 73 Evocation DC. This is how ridicolous your quest is.


Let's talk about endfight in part 2: you absolutely ruined this fight for me. Dretches and Hezrous spamming ranged damage for 200+ dmg each is ridicolous. Without the means to actually CC them, this was one of the most frustrating fight ever. You remember how I praised this fight in the feedback 1? Well, forget it now, I would never go back inside this quest the way it is now.

[Noir]

Ran part 1 on epic normal with a rogue mechanic.

Enjoyed the quest. No real issues encountered aside from the chest loot being the level 7 heroic items.

Also when I placed each of the weapons in the workbench It found no matches for upgrades.

[lysallana]

Zuggtmoy makes me sad I mean, she did originally look like a derpy puffball thing, but in 2003 she got an actual visual update to go with some game that makes her look menacing
http://www.succubus.net/wiki/images/...x-Zuggtmoy.jpg
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...1/Zuggtmoy.jpg
http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/images...Zuggtmoy01.jpg

[Rys]

EE ToEE1 and 2:

Interesting touch on the Goristro in the end fight of ToEE2, I liked it. (Bugs: bane DoT and Healing debuff goes away if you die and never come back, still possible safe spots - haven't checked properly thou).

However what I don't like is that you actually balanced the quest around high PRR harmor builds (and here we go again...instead of actually fixing the PRR, you have decided to create more imbalance by doing this). The only threat in ToEE1 and ToEE2 is the physical damage. The archers are pretty insane. Hitting for 200-350 per arrow (70 PRR - no PRR debuff, 2 man scaling). If you add the fact that many champions have a true seeing, the displacement isn't really that helpful and the only solution are again PRR and Shadow Guardian Armor.

Instant red alerts on many places.

I don't want to see any major nerfs because I want that quest to be difficult. But difficult by the means of the smart fights (the end fight of ToEE2 is a good example but somewhat ruined for me since the dretches and the hezrous like to fire arrows (how?) dealing the same insane amount of damage like the archers in the rest of the quest.

The saves of the mobs still seem off and need a closer look.

[moo_cow]

Snip.

Please listen to this guy.

[Seikojin]

I am going to perform some eh runs since not many are putting groups for ee. And I will spot check ee with different builds. What I did find on EH did not seem any different than the other day. However I didn't get far before stepping away for a bit.

[Powerhungry]

in EN dungeon level 1 with my 26 pure rogue assassin (DEX build - DC 55 assassinate).
Was able to assassinate with fairly high success rate.
One mob showed the DW symbol vs. assassinate attempt.
The others simply appeared to fail. The mob did not show a save symbol or DW over their heads.
This happened with every harpy. Every attempt failed and no save or DW symbol appeared.
Overall, it seemed the mobs were hitting harder (I had to use cocoon several times in my short time in there).

Again, not too much time in there today, but much happier with assassinate success rate. might need to check the save indicator for the failed attempts.

Found a gargoyle and assassinated him near a chest - (Standard): You are at: r2 lx1912 ly2024 i12 cInside ox19.04 oy285.86 oz-248.96 h248.9 - the chest remained locked after the assassination. It was not a named gargoyle.

[Oxarhamar]

We've done some polishing on the Temple of Elemental Evil in the new Lamannia build that went up today (Friday, March 27th.) If you are interested, please take a look and give us your feedback!

notes? changes?

[Seikojin]

notes? changes?

Check the lama patch notes thread. It has some info.

[silisav]

I started doing an Eh run on my arti. I did earth fight, fire fight and on the water temple fight I just found it too boring to kill the cube without any shrine at all close to reset my powers so I teleported back to marketplace. Here is the things that I found plus some other concerns.

1. Room with gargoyles - There was a Chest that couldnt be picked
r2 lx1912 ly2024 i19 cInside ox15.39 oy283.20 oz-248.97 h18.3

2. Collapsed entrance at earth temple
When I approached the entrance (opposite to the altar where Rogmar is hiding) there was the DM text


This great bronze door has had its wards removed recently – just like the door at the Temple entrance.

"-" appears way off in the text

3. I still find pointless to fight for 5 mins the earth elementals and then kill Rogmar with 5 shots. Seems really wrong to me.

[Marten]

The "Cook" at the loc below could use some more HP or buffing just because he is an off color mob.
(Standard): You are at: r2 lx1896 ly1976 i4 cInside ox77.97 oy-153.35 oz-85.29 h333.3
(Standard): Q:0x70026D55

Have to admit that I was unhappy to see that most of the first-west hall of Quest 2 Map 1 was inaccessible due to collapses now. That really hurts the kill count potential for this area.

In the Fire Node: Fire ele spawn in wall and was stuck -

(Standard): You are at: r2 lx1896 ly2008 i4 cInside ox625.36 oy-191.18 oz-208.13 h167.3

When the Fire Efreeti die and the body falls, the fireball and sword remain for a while after their death.

After the Quest 2 boss fight, there needs to be a Rez shrine in the chest room, a good place may be at...
(Standard): You are at: r2 lx1912 ly2008 i4 cInside ox513.25 oy243.13 oz-249.46 h268.6
so that if the fight is won but the remaining survivor cannot rez other for some reason and others should be able to get loot.

[nibel]

First off, the most noticeable thing I noticed on round 2 is how all orc archers are holding their bows in the wrong hand.



Second, I found two unresposive minibosses: Slag (the magma elemental) and Wadsworth (the gelatinous cube). I was able to capture them in video, but the forum only allow one upload per post, so I put the links below.

Slag /loc: r2 lx1896 ly2024 i13 cInside ox370.51 oy488.22 oz-249.44 h350.2

Wadsworth /loc: r2 lx1896 ly2024 i13 cInside ox339.88 oy481.31 oz-249.44 h247.5

Also right after beating Falrinth, I noticed that you you go to his study room and backtrack on the four element room, part of the graphics "die" and show as a big black block. Twitching the camera makes it appear, but in some specific angles it is still a big black block of nothingness. You can see its division on this video. /loc: r2 lx1880 ly2024 i13 cInside ox-74.52 oy340.90 oz-249.44 h240.5

[Tinco]

Please listen to this guy.

(Combat): Temple Guard hit you for 437 points of pierce damage.

EE, 60 PRR, no DR, solo scaling. Just a regular guy, no crown, no name, no nothing.

I have to agree, that's just a little bit dumb. I certainly makes EE hard, but probably the wrong kind of hard. The casters for example are very lacklustre and I'd suggest giving them nastier spells to beef up EE.


[EDIT]

Positive: The temple looks way more polished from a visual point of view and sealing off one half of the entry area in pt II was a good idea.

Regarding the zuggy-fight: Please look at the spawn timer of the fungus. I died there once because it relocated exactly at the moment the deadly wave hit. For the duration of the channeling and shortly after, the fungus shoudn't move, if I understood the fight correctly.

[SisAmethyst]

...Also when I placed each of the weapons in the workbench It found no matches for upgrades.

None of 3 blue weapons I looted could be upgrade, seems the upgrade system isn't in operation yet.

Zuggtmoy makes me sad I mean, she did originally look like a derpy puffball thing, but in 2003 she got an actual visual update to go with some game that makes her look menacing

I just finished one run on heroic and what saddens me much more is that the entire last level map. Great map but nearly empty except the boss room. Further Zuggtmoy is just standing there in the middle like a statue popping from time to time her shield up. While she not look anywhere as how I would envision the lady of fungi, the static behaviour of her is even worse then the look.
Last but not least I hope those demons she summon will one day replaced by fungi as the current dredges and goristro look so misplaced in there.

Last but not least some objectives are difficult to catch. For example after killing Falrinth I totally missed to look at the second table to pick up the orb.

[Seikojin]

(Combat): Temple Guard hit you for 437 points of pierce damage.

EE, 60 PRR, no DR, solo scaling. Just a regular guy, no crown, no name, no nothing.

I have to agree, that's just a little bit dumb. I certainly makes EE hard, but probably the wrong kind of hard. The casters for example are very lacklustre and I'd suggest giving them nastier spells to beef up EE.

[EDIT]

Positive: The temple looks way more polished from a visual point of view and sealing off one half of the entry area in pt II was a good idea.

Regarding the zuggy-fight: Please look at the spawn timer of the fungus. I died there once because it relocated exactly at the moment the deadly wave hit. For the duration of the channeling and shortly after, the fungus shoudn't move, if I understood the fight correctly.

I think the damage is strong for a reason, but you would have to be in a six man to see if it scaled the damage up or not. I run around with 100-120 prr at most times, so the damage I get isn't as bad, however I felt that the incoming damage was enough to make me want to group. So not a solo quest, which I think is perfectly fine.

Also this seems like an endgame level quest. Level, difficulty, everything. So I think if we get gear that helps mitigate some of the difficulty, but we still have a challenge, then I think this is perfectly fine.

None of 3 blue weapons I looted could be upgrade, seems the upgrade system isn't in operation yet.

I just finished one run on heroic and what saddens me much more is that the entire last level map. Great map but nearly empty except the boss room. Further Zuggtmoy is just standing there in the middle like a statue popping from time to time her shield up. While she not look anywhere as how I would envision the lady of fungi, the static behaviour of her is even worse then the look.
Last but not least I hope those demons she summon will one day replaced by fungi as the current dredges and goristro look so misplaced in there.

Last but not least some objectives are difficult to catch. For example after killing Falrinth I totally missed to look at the second table to pick up the orb.

From my run today, I have the following to add:
1. I like the scaled up damage from the mobs.
2. I like the changeup for the earth eles. However I couldn't find the clubs where the note mentioned them. And I scoured that floor.
3. I like the denser spawns in the nodes.
4. I like the hidden doors and how hard they are to search through. Makes that easy path in level 2 hard to do, so you take a longer path to get to level 3.
5. I kind of like the chests not being crammed with junk loot. However I think they all should have more ingredients (10-20 per full run of both parts). I would hope to get something done in each run considering how long the quest is. Or at least offer tons of ingredients in every 3rd runs end reward list.

Wishes:
1. I wish that each node removed a buff from zuggy. Similar to Stormcleaves boss. Give her buffs that are tied to the nodes and having them removes them from her.
2. She stops attacking you if you die. So an easy tactic is to take the death and then clean trash without dotspam.
3. I wish the nodes changed locations in the nodes and that they were gems that summoned their temple elemental to fight for you.
4. I wish Zuggy did more than stand around. Like teleport to different locations.
5. I wish the skull had an identifier like the other items do. But I think plenty tells you that it important before you get there, so... *shrug*.
6. The exp needs a boost, both for the base and the optionals. I think the base needs to be doubled on hard and elite difficulties, and 1.5 times more for normal. The non-slayer optionals should offer 2-2.5% more than they currently do. So if they were 5%, they should offer at least 10-15%.

[Tinco]

I think the damage is strong for a reason, but you would have to be in a six man to see if it scaled the damage up or not. I run around with 100-120 prr at most times, so the damage I get isn't as bad, however I felt that the incoming damage was enough to make me want to group. So not a solo quest, which I think is perfectly fine.

Are you seriously defending single arrows(!) from normal mobs(!) that hit for ~700 Damage before PRR while the standard melee guys hit for ~300 before PRR and the casters do almost nothing once you have deathward? Even if the damage level should be that high, it's absolutely imbalanced beween the different types of monsters. If that scaling is intended, certain archer champions in there will one-shot about anything that doesn't wear heavy shadowplate w/ guardian.

[EDIT] I probably should mention that the character, while low-ish PRR, has a stellar avoidance, so I didn't go in there with a non-EE-ready build.