Temple of Elemental Evil: Round 2 Feedback!

[Eth]

Or you know, you could... manage your dungeon alert or run with people who can?

I know it's hard and all.

Right, because DDO has no quests with encounters that give you instant alert, even if you killed absolutely everything that far.

[Steelstar]

Dungeon alert threshholds have been doubled in both TOEE dungeons. This means it takes twice as many monsters aggro'd to reach Green (compared to the current Lamannia build), Yellow (compared to the current Lamannia build), and so on.

[Wizza]

Dungeon alert threshholds have been doubled in both TOEE dungeons. This means it takes twice as many monsters aggro'd to reach Green (compared to the current Lamannia build), Yellow (compared to the current Lamannia build), and so on.

Thanks, more reasonable, but I wish you could just turn it off for specific rooms like Fire Temple. The first thing I will do when this hits on Lama is go into the Fire Temple and see which kind of alert I get. It was insta Red before.

Knowing about DA raising saves so much, even if we get only yellow, this will still be a huge problem for casters.

[April_Kinslayer]

Assassinate is specifically not magical, having just looked it up to double check. It is a "death" ability, as you would expect, so things that specifically work vs. death also work against Assassinate.

Death Ward and Death Block don't particularly care if the source of the effect is magical or not, just whether or not Death is involved. It's possible there is some text which is misleading in this respect, but I don't think it's likely we're going to soon make Assassinate work on all creatures with wards against death, of which Death Ward is only one kind. (Bosses, for example, have a similar but different ward against death that functions the same way.)

Thanks for the clarification, and for double-checking. Much appreciated

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I looked Real Hard at some DCs and tested in various means and ways.

As far as I can tell, it is all exactly as we expected except there was something I was unaware of (and Temple of Elemental Evil is the first time I'm in charge of statting monsters, so we're getting through this together).

Monsters in Epic Elite get a special bonus to save against magic, and only magic, while they are healthy. This doesn't affect non-magical effects. There's a similar but smaller bonus on Epic Hard.

"Magic" in this case means all spells, and possibly some other abilities/effects that we've explicitly marked as magical over the years.

This starts at +6 to saves, drops to +4 once the monster is hurt at all, and then to +2 when between 50% and 75% health. Below 50% health they receive no bonus.

For Temple of Elemental Evil, since this wasn't planned around, we're simply excluding this bonus. We don't want to blindly change what others have done in the past (and make all existing Epics easier), so we'll see what happens going forward after Update 25.


This does mean that without Dungeon Alert, the highest saves on Temple Cultists should still be 56. Which, if you were testing with a 63 DC, that would mean you only succeed ~40% of the time. As that's precisely what is reported here, it sounds like we're now all on the same page. (Some earlier posts had seemed to suggest that all the DCs were in the 70s, which didn't jive at all with what we expected.)

...and this is why those mages instakill things when they are almost dead...

[Eth]

...and this is why those mages instakill things when they are almost dead...

Nah. The thing is, even if your DCs are terrible, a failed FoD for example can still dish out some nice negative damage.
If you wait to about 1k HP you are pretty much guaranteed to get the kill, even if your DC check fails.
And on your opponents screen - sorry, I meant party member - it still looks like you landed that FoD like a total badass.

[Vargouille]

Thanks for sharing that information Vargouille, it's appreciated. So both Dungeon Alert and health of the monster can affect their saving throws. Can you confirm if Dungeon Scaling currently changes monster saving throws in any way? When I tested a few years ago it didn't seem to and I recall Eladrin confirming that.

As far as I can discern, scaling with party size doesn't affect saving throws.

This is a pretty interesting find. I always suspected that ee mobs had a +save vs magic, but I never figured out that the +save vs magic declines with health.

Worth noting that this is a very sneaky substitute for a much-reviled mechanic that was proposed with MOTU, Haunting. Link here for those with a sense of history (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ll-gt-Haunting).

The implementation also makes me curious about another phenomenon I noticed across various caster lives. Does the CC effect of earthquake count as a magical effect, or is it exempt from the +saves vs magic feature? I always felt like EQ was much more reliable than a DC-equivalent ball lightning/DBF/whatever, even accounting for the persistence of EQ. That's both plausibly justifiable (you're magicking the ground, not the monster, right?) and pretty nice for druids, who otherwise don't have a ton to work with. Inquiring minds want to know!

If I have time I'll look into investigating more, but for the moment focusing more on Temple of Elemental Evil.

Anyway you may catch flack for spilling the beans on this one, but nice detective work and I like the transparency: DDO is a really cool game with some incredibly obtuse game mechanics.

We'd rather players know and be able to take it into account.

Yep, all knowing this change now did to my mentality is prolly awaken some kind monster that will be squelched in any group when i tr palemaster taking into account about the under hp less save thing.
I will now most definitely kill steal, which will reflect on my playstyle.

Btw, try out temple, i tell you its almost impossible to do a fight without at least green alert, and i dont need to tell you how much those guys love the no alert, green to yellow with no reason

Sorry. If you prefer, please feel free to personally forget any new information we have shared with you (including the fact that we're not using this in Temple of Elemental Evil, or that we've made Dungeon Alert happen far less).

So every test and run that we have done so far had this mechanic in place, right? Which means that your Cultists, without dungeon alert, had 56+6 = 62 Save
Your 50/60 save minibosses (Red named and orange named I guess) had 56/66. Which would explain why everyone felt like saves were too high. Did you turn it off already or you can only do that in the next Lamannia update?

To be clear, the 56 I was quoting there was taking the 6 into account already. As I said earlier, that the Cultists never had a base save over 50 (since the second Lamannia build)... but they were getting that invisible +6 to Magic saves only, making it 56 (and not 62). Which perfectly matches the 40% success you yourself stated before this information had been revealed, so your testing was apparently spot on, taking the +6 into account even though you didn't know about it.

Which is to say we're largely on the same page; this +6 is being removed from Temple of Elemental Evil, though we can't easily turn it off on Lamania. This will make that 40% into 70% for the same DCs you were quoting (low 60s, though you said you had low 70s for some other tests you were doing, and some other players have also stated they had standing low 70s, which would of course be 95% against Cultists and weak saves for most non-bosses.)

[dunklezhan]

Monsters in Epic Elite get a special bonus to save against magic, and only magic, while they are healthy. This doesn't affect non-magical effects. There's a similar but smaller bonus on Epic Hard.



For Temple of Elemental Evil, since this wasn't planned around, we're simply excluding this bonus. We don't want to blindly change what others have done in the past (and make all existing Epics easier), so we'll see what happens going forward after Update 25.

I think you should - when time allows - go back to TOEE and put the bonuses in, lowering the base saves if you need to. Am assuming there's no time to address this now, which is fair enough, but the last thing we should want surely is an odd man out, mechanics-wise, because of potential for unexpected consequences come patch deliveries further down the line?

[Ancient]

I dont mind if they want to make the game harder at all, but invalidating one of the most fun playstyle while still not really giving any hardships to palies/barbs is making me slightly confused.
I will see how it plays out tho, maybe they ballance it correctly that a fully tweaked out character actually has a chance as sorc.

I don't see how requiring a little bit of damage or higher DCs "invalidates" a playstyle. But I would suggest that the DC casters remember this feeling before going off on the next forum rant demanding nerfs to shiradi.

[Ancient]

We'd rather players know and be able to take it into account.

This statement here is a great example of why I'm happy with the current direction and current group going in that direction.

Thank you.

[Delacroix21]

Dungeon alert threshholds have been doubled in both TOEE dungeons. This means it takes twice as many monsters aggro'd to reach Green (compared to the current Lamannia build), Yellow (compared to the current Lamannia build), and so on.

Can this be a blanket change? Their are MANY quests on Live that give instant dungeon alert. One of the worst is the end of "The Thrill of the Hunt". At the end there are like 20 hounds behind the bars that all agro on you and give INSTANT red alert. It is so stupid and goes against what DA was put in for= to prevent zerging.


Please make this doubling a blanket change for all content.

[Wizza]

To be clear, the 56 I was quoting there was taking the 6 into account already. As I said earlier, that the Cultists never had a base save over 50 (since the second Lamannia build)... but they were getting that invisible +6 to Magic saves only, making it 56 (and not 62). Which perfectly matches the 40% success you yourself stated before this information had been revealed, so your testing was apparently spot on, taking the +6 into account even though you didn't know about it.

Which is to say we're largely on the same page; this +6 is being removed from Temple of Elemental Evil, though we can't easily turn it off on Lamania. This will make that 40% into 70% for the same DCs you were quoting (low 60s, though you said you had low 70s for some other tests you were doing, and some other players have also stated they had standing low 70s, which would of course be 95% against Cultists and weak saves for most non-bosses.)

That clears up things a bit. I thought your 56 was without the Magic Buff (I've no idea how to call it). It means that those Cultists, which are melees and shouldn't save Reflex-based spells very much, have a Save of 50, which I think is okay-ish I guess, makes the use of debuffs not totally worthless.

Low 70s is when I mention debuffs, which I did for the other mobs, which are not fine at the moment, even with this Magic Buff, namely (I've cut off mobs that I think should be fine after you remove this Magic Buff they have):

Everything with 64 Evocation DC, Lightning bolt. Debuffs are (Solid Fog and Waves of Exhaustion, bringing the DC to 72):

- Temple gargoyle can be CCed just fine but not a single Reflex save based spell worked. Saved from 95% of them. (Also had them Debuffed and they saved everything as well)
- Earth Temple saving 95%, Immune to solid fog (lol). Cannot hit them even with Waves of Exhaustion on them as well.
- Salamanders saves: not fine. They spawn with Red Alert in the Fire Temple and since Vargouille claimed that Red Alert raises mobs Saves, it's impossible to test those at the start of the fight. However, when we got it down to green or no alert at all, I still couldn't CC them. It was not a problem with Spell Penetration but they were just saving.
- The Prefecto in the Fire Temple also evaded everything, we had no alert.
- Kleno, in the Air temple quarters, evaded most of my spells.
- The Elementals in the endfight (and Water Elementals in the Water Temple) evaded 90% of my spells WITH debuffs.
- The endboss of part 1, couldn't be hit.
- Dretches and Hezrous in part 2: cannot be CCed AND they save Reflex-saved spells as well. No alert.
- Zuggtmoy: saved everything as well.
- Goristro Barbarian: still saving.

The Prefecto, Kleno, endboss of part 1, Dretches, Hezrous, Zuggtmoy, Goristro Barbarian were still saving AFTER the debuffs, so with a 72 DC.

Anyway, unless you can turn if off on Lamannia, testing will be very hard.

[Monkey-Boy]

This statement here is a great example of why I'm happy with the current direction and current group going in that direction.

Thank you.

Yes, Transparency is a good thing

[Thrudh]

Right, because DDO has no quests with encounters that give you instant alert, even if you killed absolutely everything that far.

Very few. Maybe 1% of the game.... Bring those up with details, and I bet the devs will fix them.

[Tyrande]

It can be as high as +28 to saves on the highest levels of Dungeon Alert. There are some straight saving throw boosts and some ability score boosts monsters receive with higher Dungeon Alert. It's much, much lower on low levels. Green alert is +4 (or +20%) to saves (+2 to saves and +4 to ability scores).

I would like to see monsters getting +200 AC, +200 PRR, +200% fortification during a red alert to balance as well.

[Thrudh]

Can this be a blanket change? Their are MANY quests on Live that give instant dungeon alert. One of the worst is the end of "The Thrill of the Hunt". At the end there are like 20 hounds behind the bars that all agro on you and give INSTANT red alert. It is so stupid and goes against what DA was put in for= to prevent zerging.


Please make this doubling a blanket change for all content.

Please list all quests where this happens and where it happens (the above about Thrill of the Hunt is a very good example), and I bet we can get the devs (after Update 25 is released) to look at this.

Do not ask for it be a blanket change, because it is not a blanket problem.

[brzytki]

I would like to see monsters getting +200 AC, +200 PRR, +200% fortification during a red alert to balance as well.

They already do get +AC and +fort, obviously not that absurdly high, at least on orange and red DA.

[Vargouille]

The Prefecto, Kleno, endboss of part 1, Dretches, Hezrous, Zuggtmoy, Goristro Barbarian were still saving AFTER the debuffs, so with a 72 DC.

On EE, without the special anti-magic (aka -6), Dretches, Hezrou, and Goristro have at least one save type below 50 (or even below 40 for the one with only one sub-50 save, or multiple saves below 50).

Kelno has a 53, Falrinth has pretty awful saves across the board (but is a Boss). Even Zuggtmoy has a below 50 save. These are all bosses who may have some other special stuff going on (especially the two end bosses).

These aren't all the same "weak save" type for each monster, and some of these are significant bosses that that we expect to provide some trouble.

Every human monster has at least one save at 53 or lower in Temple of Elemental Evil. (This was relatively easy to check since all humans are in one place.)

(Of course, this kind of detailed information isn't something we're going to normally spend much time giving out - we do want you guys to discover some of this on your own - but under the circumstances I wanted to spend some extra time looking at these guys to check for oddities.)

[Blackheartox]

Var, can you guys change how energy drain works?
I mean when i look at it, i use it as a way to debuff the mob, but with the when full hp etc mechanic when i use energy drain and try to use it as mean to instakill i wil cut enemys hp and actually give him saves if he was alrdy being beat down making my spells harder to resist.
I mean, i like that you guys shared the mechanic, but now im looking at many spells differently and some became kinda.. bad..


Any chance you guys will do a spell pass revamp for casters anytime?
SInce its really hard to compete with melles, even for tea of q fishing shiradi builds

[EllisDee37]

Var, can you guys change how energy drain works?
I mean when i look at it, i use it as a way to debuff the mob, but with the when full hp etc mechanic when i use energy drain and try to use it as mean to instakill i wil cut enemys hp and actually give him saves if he was alrdy being beat down making my spells harder to resist.
I mean, i like that you guys shared the mechanic, but now im looking at many spells differently and some became kinda.. bad..

Same for enervation, which as an SLA is a particularly useful debuff since it's so cheap. Or at least is could be if it didn't fill up the mob HP bar giving it +6 to saves.