Temple of Elemental Evil: Round 2 Feedback!

[Theolin]

I looked Real Hard at some DCs and tested in various means and ways.

...<stuff>.....

Monsters in Epic Elite get a special bonus to save against magic, and only magic, while they are healthy. This doesn't affect non-magical effects. There's a similar but smaller bonus on Epic Hard.

"Magic" in this case means all spells, and possibly some other abilities/effects that we've explicitly marked as magical over the years.

This starts at +6 to saves, drops to +4 once the monster is hurt at all, and then to +2 when between 50% and 75% health. Below 50% health they receive no bonus.

...<stuff>...

This was added in 2012, at the same time Epic got multiple difficulties.

This explains Sooooo much ...... & no wonder I got sooo irritated & stopped playing caster about then

New trick on maxing your DC's the Cleaving Caster, now get 2 to your DC, take PA & cleave as feats

[UurlockYgmeov]

It's only March, we can beat this.

Now THIS is the biggest understatement of the year (SO FAR) ;p

[Blackheartox]

So sev what you just said to me is, that i need to land 50 /55 strong save for some mobs, 61 when full hp, 64 when green alert, prolly 66/68 when its yellow or orange which is quite offten in temple upped by 20 aka 88 will save enchant for secure cc ?

I mean all cool n such, but do you really want me so badly to play a barb or palie?

I dont mind it, but really, i mean do you see any sorcs speed runing in achivments?
Or palemasters?
Or dc clerics and wizzys?
Or dc druids?


I mean i dont mind tring to barb or palie, they are really broken and the most broken working as intended things you added to the game.

But really?

I mean its humanly impossible to land to that save threshold with current gear for sorc and wizzy.
Yes you can burst for like 5 seconds, but that isnt enough.

I mean, i dont mind tring to barb..
But really?

Also i would be really grateful and happy if you added a list of unannounced changed to the game that never made its way into release notes and ty

Making the game harder does not mean push everyone into the things you worked on to secure efficiency and totally invalidate other playstyley.
Il stay as sorc tho, struggle, but i dont like this since casters really arent the powerhorses in this game.

[SirValentine]

This starts at +6 to saves, drops to +4 once the monster is hurt at all, and then to +2 when between 50% and 75% health. Below 50% health they receive no bonus.

Well, that explains the mismatch between Assassin experiences I've heard reported on what kind of DCs you need, versus my own and others experience with casters.

Wait...this also explains why neg-levelling doesn't seem as good for lowering saves as it should be...you've increased the PERCENTAGE of the mobs health, by lowering the max.

[April_Kinslayer]

Now I'm curious. Since Deathward effectively nullifies Assassinate, I'm guessing Assassinate was put in as a spell when coded, thus making assassinate such a pain. Hopefully this isn't a hard issue to fix.

[Vargouille]

Now I'm curious. Since Deathward effectively nullifies Assassinate, I'm guessing Assassinate was put in as a spell when coded, thus making assassinate such a pain. Hopefully this isn't a hard issue to fix.

Assassinate is specifically not magical, having just looked it up to double check. It is a "death" ability, as you would expect, so things that specifically work vs. death also work against Assassinate.

Death Ward and Death Block don't particularly care if the source of the effect is magical or not, just whether or not Death is involved. It's possible there is some text which is misleading in this respect, but I don't think it's likely we're going to soon make Assassinate work on all creatures with wards against death, of which Death Ward is only one kind. (Bosses, for example, have a similar but different ward against death that functions the same way.)

[slarden]

Assassinate is specifically not magical, having just looked it up to double check. It is a "death" ability, as you would expect, so things that specifically work vs. death also work against Assassinate.

Death Ward and Death Block don't particularly care if the source of the effect is magical or not, just whether or not Death is involved. It's possible there is some text which is misleading in this respect, but I don't think it's likely we're going to soon make Assassinate work on all creatures with wards against death, of which Death Ward is only one kind. (Bosses, for example, have a similar but different ward against death that functions the same way.)

I am ok with this because I am not wanting enemy assassins to assassinate me through my deathblock.

[Humperdink]

Monsters in Epic Elite get a special bonus to save against magic, and only magic, while they are healthy. This doesn't affect non-magical effects. There's a similar but smaller bonus on Epic Hard.

"Magic" in this case means all spells, and possibly some other abilities/effects that we've explicitly marked as magical over the years.

This starts at +6 to saves, drops to +4 once the monster is hurt at all, and then to +2 when between 50% and 75% health. Below 50% health they receive no bonus.

Thanks for sharing that information Vargouille, it's appreciated. So both Dungeon Alert and health of the monster can affect their saving throws. Can you confirm if Dungeon Scaling currently changes monster saving throws in any way? When I tested a few years ago it didn't seem to and I recall Eladrin confirming that.

[General_Gronker]

We don't want to blindly change what others have done in the past (and make all existing Epics easier), so we'll see what happens going forward after Update 25.

You should since that, as with many other things, was a stupid design decision made by people who didn't know anything about the game they were working on (or in some cases, actively disliked the game).

[Seikojin]

So sev what you just said to me is, that i need to land 50 /55 strong save for some mobs, 61 when full hp, 64 when green alert, prolly 66/68 when its yellow or orange which is quite offten in temple upped by 20 aka 88 will save enchant for secure cc ?

I mean all cool n such, but do you really want me so badly to play a barb or palie?

I dont mind it, but really, i mean do you see any sorcs speed runing in achivments?
Or palemasters?
Or dc clerics and wizzys?
Or dc druids?


I mean i dont mind tring to barb or palie, they are really broken and the most broken working as intended things you added to the game.

But really?

I mean its humanly impossible to land to that save threshold with current gear for sorc and wizzy.
Yes you can burst for like 5 seconds, but that isnt enough.

I mean, i dont mind tring to barb..
But really?

Also i would be really grateful and happy if you added a list of unannounced changed to the game that never made its way into release notes and ty

Making the game harder does not mean push everyone into the things you worked on to secure efficiency and totally invalidate other playstyley.
Il stay as sorc tho, struggle, but i dont like this since casters really arent the powerhorses in this game.

Well, DA is a choice really. Think of it as upping the difficulty for you

[Seikojin]

Assassinate is specifically not magical, having just looked it up to double check. It is a "death" ability, as you would expect, so things that specifically work vs. death also work against Assassinate.

Death Ward and Death Block don't particularly care if the source of the effect is magical or not, just whether or not Death is involved. It's possible there is some text which is misleading in this respect, but I don't think it's likely we're going to soon make Assassinate work on all creatures with wards against death, of which Death Ward is only one kind. (Bosses, for example, have a similar but different ward against death that functions the same way.)

Bummer. I guess Death effects need a damage additional if saved/blocked.

[IronClan]

if you were testing with a 63 DC, that would mean you only succeed ~40% of the time. As that's precisely what is reported here, it sounds like we're now all on the same page. (Some earlier posts had seemed to suggest that all the DCs were in the 70s, which didn't jive at all with what we expected.)

I can clear that up, you see in forum DDO one must have a no fail save without considering debuffing for a DC to be considered "viable" (of course by no fail I mean mobs only save on a 20)...

I would suspect the reason they added this hidden saves boost is that many melee's complain when "no fail" inta-killers make them "only useful when they got to the boss" so they put in a hidden (from us) softening up mechanic...

[MrWindupBird]

I looked Real Hard at some DCs and tested in various means and ways.

As far as I can tell, it is all exactly as we expected except there was something I was unaware of (and Temple of Elemental Evil is the first time I'm in charge of statting monsters, so we're getting through this together).

Monsters in Epic Elite get a special bonus to save against magic, and only magic, while they are healthy. This doesn't affect non-magical effects. There's a similar but smaller bonus on Epic Hard.

"Magic" in this case means all spells, and possibly some other abilities/effects that we've explicitly marked as magical over the years.

This starts at +6 to saves, drops to +4 once the monster is hurt at all, and then to +2 when between 50% and 75% health. Below 50% health they receive no bonus.

For Temple of Elemental Evil, since this wasn't planned around, we're simply excluding this bonus. We don't want to blindly change what others have done in the past (and make all existing Epics easier), so we'll see what happens going forward after Update 25.


This does mean that without Dungeon Alert, the highest saves on Temple Cultists should still be 56. Which, if you were testing with a 63 DC, that would mean you only succeed ~40% of the time. As that's precisely what is reported here, it sounds like we're now all on the same page. (Some earlier posts had seemed to suggest that all the DCs were in the 70s, which didn't jive at all with what we expected.)

This is a pretty interesting find. I always suspected that ee mobs had a +save vs magic, but I never figured out that the +save vs magic declines with health.

Worth noting that this is a very sneaky substitute for a much-reviled mechanic that was proposed with MOTU, Haunting. Link here for those with a sense of history (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ll-gt-Haunting).

The implementation also makes me curious about another phenomenon I noticed across various caster lives. Does the CC effect of earthquake count as a magical effect, or is it exempt from the +saves vs magic feature? I always felt like EQ was much more reliable than a DC-equivalent ball lightning/DBF/whatever, even accounting for the persistence of EQ. That's both plausibly justifiable (you're magicking the ground, not the monster, right?) and pretty nice for druids, who otherwise don't have a ton to work with. Inquiring minds want to know!

Anyway you may catch flack for spilling the beans on this one, but nice detective work and I like the transparency: DDO is a really cool game with some incredibly obtuse game mechanics.

[IronClan]

I mean, i dont mind tring to barb..
But really?

Or you know, you could... manage your dungeon alert or run with people who can?

I know it's hard and all.

[IronClan]

Well, that explains the mismatch between Assassin experiences I've heard reported on what kind of DCs you need, versus my own and others experience with casters.

Wait...this also explains why neg-levelling doesn't seem as good for lowering saves as it should be...you've increased the PERCENTAGE of the mobs health, by lowering the max.

Yeah but it also means that dropping a damage spell in the pile like Chain Lightning or Cometfall and then wailing or imploding will have some tactical debuffing utility over just running in and hitting instakills. On average you're going to get some debuff effect with other casters ranged and melee in the mix dropping max HP, meaning your insta kill will hit more mobs...

There's not a lot that's less fun in DDO than being on a Melee with two insta-killers in a party... I can see why they might have done this to promote the need to do some damage before making the whole room vanish. Their failure was never letting the players know about this mechanic. I for one would definitely hold back on the insta kill in favor of some prep damage as a welcome addition to tactical play.

[Nascoe]

So sev what you just said to me is, that i need to land 50 /55 strong save for some mobs, 61 when full hp, 64 when green alert, prolly 66/68 when its yellow or orange which is quite offten in temple upped by 20 aka 88 will save enchant for secure cc ?

I mean all cool n such, but do you really want me so badly to play a barb or palie?

I dont mind it, but really, i mean do you see any sorcs speed runing in achivments?
Or palemasters?
Or dc clerics and wizzys?
Or dc druids?


I mean i dont mind tring to barb or palie, they are really broken and the most broken working as intended things you added to the game.

But really?


I mean its humanly impossible to land to that save threshold with current gear for sorc and wizzy.
Yes you can burst for like 5 seconds, but that isnt enough.

I mean, i dont mind tring to barb..
But really?

Also i would be really grateful and happy if you added a list of unannounced changed to the game that never made its way into release notes and ty

Making the game harder does not mean push everyone into the things you worked on to secure efficiency and totally invalidate other playstyley.
Il stay as sorc tho, struggle, but i dont like this since casters really arent the powerhorses in this game.

Fully understand you are surprised, and from the look of it it does explain some things we were wondering about. But from Varg's response it seems he was also caught unawaress about this. Furthermore, he mentions that they are NOT going to leave this in for ToEE because it messes with their projections of how things should work:
"For Temple of Elemental Evil, since this wasn't planned around, we're simply excluding this bonus. We don't want to blindly change what others have done in the past (and make all existing Epics easier), so we'll see what happens going forward after Update 25. "

Not to mention that its not that much of a problem to try and manage DA, especially now that we know this ... (provided Turbine adjusts the spots in ToEE where it now escalates very fast even on Solo).

And for the other dungeons now just let the melee wade in and take them down a bit, hit them up with some AoE without DCs before the instakills etc to take the "higher saves on with full health" in account. Now that we know this (thank you VERY much for the info Varg), its just something to take in account

[Blackheartox]

Fully understand you are surprised, and from the look of it it does explain some things we were wondering about. But from Varg's response it seems he was also caught unawaress about this. Furthermore, he mentions that they are NOT going to leave this in for ToEE because it messes with their projections of how things should work:
"For Temple of Elemental Evil, since this wasn't planned around, we're simply excluding this bonus. We don't want to blindly change what others have done in the past (and make all existing Epics easier), so we'll see what happens going forward after Update 25. "

Not to mention that its not that much of a problem to try and manage DA, especially now that we know this ... (provided Turbine adjusts the spots in ToEE where it now escalates very fast even on Solo).

And for the other dungeons now just let the melee wade in and take them down a bit, hit them up with some AoE without DCs before the instakills etc to take the "higher saves on with full health" in account. Now that we know this (thank you VERY much for the info Varg), its just something to take in account

I agree that its something to take into account, i was just a bit angry when i steped into temple and saw that almost every fight consists of green/yellow no matter how you try to manage.
The full hp as well, never knew and im pretty sure i read release notes calmly and slowly since reading release notes gives most information on what is changing in the game.
I also try to figured out how to lang those dcs with all debuffs counted on a fully tweaked character, meaning every possible existing boost in game and i kinda fail to get to that save check even if i swap to drow and go max charisma magister /:

But on the other side, i have full melle gear and esos and a finished pair of t3 warhammers.
But as said, il let it it go.

I dont mind if they want to make the game harder at all, but invalidating one of the most fun playstyle while still not really giving any hardships to palies/barbs is making me slightly confused.
I will see how it plays out tho, maybe they ballance it correctly that a fully tweaked out character actually has a chance as sorc.

I mean dont get me wrong fellas, it isnt just rage for no reason.
It is more like this, i play a sorc on main since my ddo dream was to make a powerful 3x sorc, doesnt need to domintate quests, but does need to do what it has past lifes tomes and gear for, i also have a few lifes barb on alt with no gear tomes, andit dominates quests on ee.
I need to put alot effort, kiting skills, debuffs, double element weaken, to keep up with my barbie girl, which just holds left auto attack.

[Blackheartox]

Yeah but it also means that dropping a damage spell in the pile like Chain Lightning or Cometfall and then wailing or imploding will have some tactical debuffing utility over just running in and hitting instakills. On average you're going to get some debuff effect with other casters ranged and melee in the mix dropping max HP, meaning your insta kill will hit more mobs...

There's not a lot that's less fun in DDO than being on a Melee with two insta-killers in a party... I can see why they might have done this to promote the need to do some damage before making the whole room vanish. Their failure was never letting the players know about this mechanic. I for one would definitely hold back on the insta kill in favor of some prep damage as a welcome addition to tactical play.

Yep, all knowing this change now did to my mentality is prolly awaken some kind monster that will be squelched in any group when i tr palemaster taking into account about the under hp less save thing.
I will now most definitely kill steal, which will reflect on my playstyle.

Btw, try out temple, i tell you its almost impossible to do a fight without at least green alert, and i dont need to tell you how much those guys love the no alert, green to yellow with no reason

[jbart9999]

Great job with ToEE I look forward to literally hours and hours, probably more like months of fun with this one. I'm in a small guild of 8 players (All older D&D Pen & Paper players) b and have been playing DDO since the beginning (founder) and this is by far my favorite quest. Although it's not exactly like ToEE from Pen & Paper it does capture the flavor of that great adventure (IMO). I especially like the addition of the "power-up" mystery alters with things like fire affinity, etc..

Here is my take on ToEE (2nd update) so far:

Running through this with my 20 Bard/8 Epic (Sorrianna) solo with a party of Hirelings, Starting at EC - EH. I don't think EE is possible to solo with my character, Even in EH I could not beat the Zuggtomy without lots of rez cakes):


ToEE Part 1:

Good (IMO):

- The Mob placement seems a little more reasonable, not as many bunched up Mobs as I encountered during the first update to ToEE.

- For some reason it seems visually much more appealing then the first time ruNning through it (Not sure why).


Bad (IMO):

- Water Temple: No end chest for the Boss Fight. (On EC/N/H).

- Air Temple: No end chest for the Boss Fight. (On EC/N/H).

Bugs:

- Temple Grounds - Dungeon Level One (West): Found the Water-stained note from Belsornig in Romag's chest that said the his club was taken and moved to the prisons West of the Earth Temple. Went there and found a locked chest with no way to open (Linked to Boss fight?) But there was no Boss anywhere in the area. Also there is no chest icon displayed on the Mini-map or regular map. Left area and came back several times to hopefully get a re-spawn of the boss but did not get one. (Location: r2 lx1912 ly2024 i4 cInside ox-294.85 oy337.73 oz-258.45 h135.0 Q:0x70026D5A). (on EC/N).

- Temple Grounds - Dungeon Level One (East): In the Gargoyl Boss room, there was a chest for him but no Boss, so chest was unopenable. Also no chest Icon was displayed on maps. Tried to get the boss to re-spawn by leaving/returning to area a few times, but got nothing. (Location: r2 lx1912 ly2024 i4 cInside ox12.63 oy283.58 oz-248.96 h74.5 Q:0x70026D5A). (On EC/N).

- Temple Grounds - Dungeon Level Three (Northern Hall): In the Water pool room, there was an locked, under water chest with no Boss, so chest was unopenable. Also no chest Icon was displayed on maps. Tried to get the boss to re-spawn by leaving/returning to area a few times, but got nothing. (Location: r2 lx1896 ly2024 i11 cInside ox349.93 oy422.34 oz-249.45 h7.0 Q:0x70026D5A). (On EC/N).



ToEE Part 2


Good (IMO):

- Great job on the atmosphere additions to the rooms in the Lower Temple sections adds a lot of realism to it as it did have that unfinished look in the 1st round run through.


Bad (IMO):

- The end fight with Zuggtomy was really difficult on EH and although I was solo'ing I'm assuming that even a full party of average players would have difficulty with this final battle. I think it needs to be balanced a little bit, maybe lower the damage of the area kill effect or leave permanent fixed sheltering mushrooms. Just my opinion.


Bugs:

- Lower Temple first section: SenShock's chest was Empty in the first section of the Temple. (Location: r2 lx1896 ly1976 i32 cInside ox37.78 oy-71.35 oz-85.27 h99.8 Q:0x70026D55) (On EC).

- Lower Temple second section: The Temple Commander's chest on the top of the Dias was empty. (Location: r2 lx1896 ly1976 i32 cInside ox5.35 oy96.22 oz-126.95 h15.5 Q:0x70026D55). (On EC).

- Water Node: Found a Random chest that were empty (Did not see a boss or mini-boss). (Location: r2 lx1896 ly1992 i32 cInside ox81.54 oy-740.00 oz-208.94 h202.5 Q:0x70026D55). (on EC).

- Water Node: End Chest at teleport to Zuggtomy's chamber, was empty. (Location: r2 lx1896 ly1992 i32 cInside ox-219.60 oy-870.19 oz-178.72 h233.4 Q:0x70026D55). (On EC/N).

- Earth Node: End Chest at teleport to Zuggtomy's chamber, was empty. (Location: r2 lx1880 ly1992 i32 cInside ox158.90 oy497.84 oz-256.23 h164.5 Q:0x70026D55). (on EC).

- Earth Node: Locked chest which was unopenable and there was no Boss or Mini-Boss in the area. (Location: r2 lx1880 ly1992 i8 cInside ox224.31 oy770.63 oz-248.13 h202.5 Q:0x70026D55). (on EN).

- Fire Node: Chest next to Fire Affinity Alter was Empty. (Location: r2 lx1896 ly2008 i32 cInside ox570.27 oy2.16 oz-194.52 h248.9 Q:0x70026D55). (on EC).

- Fire Node: Locked, Unguarded Chest (No boss or Mini-boss) was empty. (Location: r2 lx1896 ly2008 i32 cInside ox452.05 oy35.88 oz-188.66 h225.0 Q:0x70026D55). (on EC).

- Fire Node: Nodeborn Fire Mephit stuck in wall. {Location: r2 lx1896 ly2008 i32 cInside ox614.07 oy-108.00 oz-207.72 h244.7 Q:0x70026D55). (on EC).

- Fire Node: Nodeborn Fire Elemental stuck in Ceiling. (Location: r2 lx1896 ly2008 i32 cInside ox626.07 oy-194.30 oz-208.14 h192.7 Q:0x70026D55). (on EC).

- Fire Node: Locked, Unguarded Chest (No Boss or Mini-Boss) was empty. (Location: r2 lx1896 ly2008 i32 cInside ox587.55 oy-224.11 oz-185.17 h206.7 Q:0x70026D55). (on EC).

- Fire Node: End Chest at teleport to Zuggtomy's chamber, was empty. (Location: r2 lx1896 ly2008 i32 cInside ox679.28 oy92.21 oz-202.84 h340.3 Q:0x70026D55). (On EC).

- Air Node: End Chest at teleport to Zuggtomy's chamber, was empty. (Location: r2 lx1880 ly2008 i32 cInside ox-416.97 oy131.07 oz-156.79 h38.0 Q:0x70026D55). (on EC).

- Zuggtomy's Chamber: During the end fight the sheltering mushrooms do not always seem to appear when she about to do her area effect kill (Let's face it, that's basically what it is). This makes surviving the end fight without a TPK really difficult. I Also noticed that on EH she seemed incredibly overpowered. I'd suggest that lower the damage from here area affect and/or increasing the delay between when she

starts the to cast the spell and when it goes off. (on EC/N/H).

- The Quest End Reward given by Bagnam (Epic ToEE) is not level appropriate (all level 1-2 stuff).

[Wizza]

I looked Real Hard at some DCs and tested in various means and ways.

As far as I can tell, it is all exactly as we expected except there was something I was unaware of (and Temple of Elemental Evil is the first time I'm in charge of statting monsters, so we're getting through this together).

Monsters in Epic Elite get a special bonus to save against magic, and only magic, while they are healthy. This doesn't affect non-magical effects. There's a similar but smaller bonus on Epic Hard.

"Magic" in this case means all spells, and possibly some other abilities/effects that we've explicitly marked as magical over the years.

This starts at +6 to saves, drops to +4 once the monster is hurt at all, and then to +2 when between 50% and 75% health. Below 50% health they receive no bonus.

For Temple of Elemental Evil, since this wasn't planned around, we're simply excluding this bonus. We don't want to blindly change what others have done in the past (and make all existing Epics easier), so we'll see what happens going forward after Update 25.


This does mean that without Dungeon Alert, the highest saves on Temple Cultists should still be 56. Which, if you were testing with a 63 DC, that would mean you only succeed ~40% of the time. As that's precisely what is reported here, it sounds like we're now all on the same page. (Some earlier posts had seemed to suggest that all the DCs were in the 70s, which didn't jive at all with what we expected.)

So every test and run that we have done so far had this mechanic in place, right? Which means that your Cultists, without dungeon alert, had 56+6 = 62 Save
Your 50/60 save minibosses (Red named and orange named I guess) had 56/66. Which would explain why everyone felt like saves were too high. Did you turn it off already or you can only do that in the next Lamannia update?