True Druid Wolf Advice

[CPDK9]

Looking for some advice for a human true druid wolf form DPS build. I'm looking at a pack flavor build using my pet and summons along with druid spells to enhance the pack. Probably not epic worthy, but thinking it would be fun in the heroic levels and easy to solo.

My question would be combat feat selection - what would be the best combat chain - SWF for speed, TWF for off-hand (paw), Shield for doublestrike, or just stick with Natural Fighting? I can really only spare one chain with other feats being tied up - augment summons, dodge (four good legs require), Imp Crit Bludge, PA or Precision (not sure which), Extend or Empower Heal (leaning towards extend for all my buffs).

Thoughts and ideas appreciated.

[Enoach]

I cannot answer so much about which combat feat you should go with myself and will leave that to others who would be more knowledgeable. I know for myself I preferred hitting fast.

However, I want to talk about some of your OR choices on feats.

PA vs Precision - For Wolf that only means +5 Damage with PA. But Precision adds in Fortification Bypass. Now this is important in the mid to upper levels when you start running into fortified mobs. Now I personally like hitting more often, so the additional bypass can quickly translate into more critical hits.

Extend vs Empower Healing
Look at the spells that allow Extend you will notice most of these spells are 1 minute per caster level. Keep in mind the minimum time for these spells will be 5 minutes. While leveling up the extra time this feat adds could mean less time buffing, but after about level 8 you have to start asking yourself is 16+ minutes needed between shrines. I have personally found in most cases 10 minutes is usually enough between shrines. Again this is personal taste. However, Empower Healing works well the Druids heal over time spells. In animal form you will be casting spells a little slower that are not natural to your form so a little extra umpf behind them can help save your pack.

Now while the summoned might not work out as well on Epic your Wolf can still be a good asset to you. I've seen Wolf Druids still bringing in their pets to work on Epic Questing. It takes gearing and buffing much like any other fighter of that level. Will they hit as hard as a well geared fighter/barbarian probably not, but if you have everything knocked down your pet can be that little extra DPS to make sure it never gets up again.

[unbongwah]

My back-of-envelope math suggests that if you can only take one feat chain on a pure wolf build, it ought to be TWF, which raises you from 1.2 procs (base offhand proc chance) to 1.8 (GTWF), a 50% DPS increase. GSWF is +30% atk speed, but I think it stacks additively with base wolf atk speed (30%) and Haste (15%) or max Fatal Harrier (25%) rather than multiplicatively, so you go from 1.45/1.55 atk speed to 1.75/1.85 atk speed, which is ~20% DPS increase. [If it does stack multiplicatively, then it's a flat +30% DPS increase, which is better but still not as good as TWF.] Natural Fighting x3 is +18% doublestrike, while ISM+LSM is +15% doublestrike; so even if you took all 5 feats and Twisted LSM, it's still "just" +33% DPS (presuming no other sources of doublestrike).

FWIW, I've been experimenting with pure wolf druids as I work on some EPLs; currently my build is a WIS-based melee/caster hybrid, with TWF x3, Precision, IC:Blunt, Overwhelming Crit, Max, Quik, Emp Heal, Heighten, PTWF, Ruin, and Mass Frog (mostly for the LULZ). Does fine in EH (but what doesn't?) and easier EEs; but I don't have the gear, PLs, etc. to really be effective in tougher EEs. But I built it more for SP efficiency than max-DPS; it's meant for XP-farming EH content with minimal resources, not endgame.

[cru121]

My back-of-envelope math suggests ...

Interesting. One thing that TWF does not bring is melee power. Perhaps it would allow SWF to "close the gap"?

[unbongwah]

I don't know if Melee Power from SWF or SM feats is applying to wolf forms. However, if it is, even in the best case (namely SWF atk speed stacking multiplicatively), that's 1.3 * 1.1 = 1.43 (i.e., 43% DPS increase), which is still behind GTWF (again, if my math is right). [And since Melee Power stacks additively, it's a smaller increase than that if you're using an ED which provides extra Melee Power.] If atk speed stacks additively, then it's more like 1.2 * 1.1 = 1.32 (32% DPS increase).

The other advantage to the TWF chain (and just the TWF chain) for wolf builds is that you get the extra procs regardless of what gear you actually have equipped; so ironically it gives you the most flexibility in terms of what you put into your offhand, whereas SM and SWF restrict you to shields and orbs (or nothing), respectively.

[CPDK9]

I cannot answer so much about which combat feat you should go with myself and will leave that to others who would be more knowledgeable. I know for myself I preferred hitting fast.

PA vs Precision - For Wolf that only means +5 Damage with PA. But Precision adds in Fortification Bypass. Now this is important in the mid to upper levels when you start running into fortified mobs. Now I personally like hitting more often, so the additional bypass can quickly translate into more critical hits.

Extend vs Empower Healing
Look at the spells that allow Extend you will notice most of these spells are 1 minute per caster level. Keep in mind the minimum time for these spells will be 5 minutes. While leveling up the extra time this feat adds could mean less time buffing, but after about level 8 you have to start asking yourself is 16+ minutes needed between shrines. I have personally found in most cases 10 minutes is usually enough between shrines. Again this is personal taste. However, Empower Healing works well the Druids heal over time spells. In animal form you will be casting spells a little slower that are not natural to your form so a little extra umpf behind them can help save your pack.

Now while the summoned might not work out as well on Epic your Wolf can still be a good asset to you. I've seen Wolf Druids still bringing in their pets to work on Epic Questing. It takes gearing and buffing much like any other fighter of that level. Will they hit as hard as a well geared fighter/barbarian probably not, but if you have everything knocked down your pet can be that little extra DPS to make sure it never gets up again.

Thanks for the comments.

Precision does seem to be the better choice. I had thought about spending points in the human tree for healing amp rather than a feat, but that might be something I'll need to test and see the SPs I'm going through during a quest. Another option is a healbot hire. It might be extend and change out at a later time. Figured that summons would be a waste at epic - that needs to be changed - and was planning to TR druid thrice for gear and summons boost with pastlife feats before even considering epic.

[CPDK9]

My back-of-envelope math suggests that if you can only take one feat chain on a pure wolf build, it ought to be TWF, which raises you from 1.2 procs (base offhand proc chance) to 1.8 (GTWF), a 50% DPS increase. GSWF is +30% atk speed, but I think it stacks additively with base wolf atk speed (30%) and Haste (15%) or max Fatal Harrier (25%) rather than multiplicatively, so you go from 1.45/1.55 atk speed to 1.75/1.85 atk speed, which is ~20% DPS increase. [If it does stack multiplicatively, then it's a flat +30% DPS increase, which is better but still not as good as TWF.] Natural Fighting x3 is +18% doublestrike, while ISM+LSM is +15% doublestrike; so even if you took all 5 feats and Twisted LSM, it's still "just" +33% DPS (presuming no other sources of doublestrike).

FWIW, I've been experimenting with pure wolf druids as I work on some EPLs; currently my build is a WIS-based melee/caster hybrid, with TWF x3, Precision, IC:Blunt, Overwhelming Crit, Max, Quik, Emp Heal, Heighten, PTWF, Ruin, and Mass Frog (mostly for the LULZ). Does fine in EH (but what doesn't?) and easier EEs; but I don't have the gear, PLs, etc. to really be effective in tougher EEs. But I built it more for SP efficiency than max-DPS; it's meant for XP-farming EH content with minimal resources, not endgame.

Thanks for your comments and the numbers crunch.

Now I understand why the SWF/TWF workaround is so popular on wolf form and the bard splash for SM line just adds to the insanity. Although natural fighting seems like a slightly better choice than the SM line and would save on points. Definitely a TWF line based on those numbers and will need to plan for the dex requirement. Interesting build concept - mind going into more detail and play style? I take it your pet makes a good lever puller and that's all!

[CPDK9]

The other advantage to the TWF chain (and just the TWF chain) for wolf builds is that you get the extra procs regardless of what gear you actually have equipped; so ironically it gives you the most flexibility in terms of what you put into your offhand, whereas SM and SWF restrict you to shields and orbs (or nothing), respectively.

So could you combine TWF, SWF, and Natural Fighting, forget the bard splash, and be restricted to nothing or an orb? And you benefit from all three lines?

[unbongwah]

So could you combine TWF, SWF, and Natural Fighting, forget the bard splash, and be restricted to nothing or an orb? And you benefit from all three lines?

Yup! Crazy, ain't it? And broken as all heck, but there you go. Then it's mostly a question of whether you want to go the druid / rgr / ftr or D/R/monk approach; either gets you more feats, the former lets you take defensive stance (w/med or hvy armor for Gtr defensive bonuses), the latter gets you monk stances, +[W] unarmed bonuses which carry over to wolf form, etc.

I've theorycrafted druid / rgr / bard builds which have TWF, SWF, and SM; in theory you could add Natural Fighting too, but in practice there's aren't enough feats to spare at higher levels.

[CPDK9]

Yup! Crazy, ain't it? And broken as all heck, but there you go. Then it's mostly a question of whether you want to go the druid / rgr / ftr or D/R/monk approach; either gets you more feats, the former lets you take defensive stance (w/med or hvy armor for Gtr defensive bonuses), the latter gets you monk stances, +[W] unarmed bonuses which carry over to wolf form, etc.

I've theorycrafted druid / rgr / bard builds which have TWF, SWF, and SM; in theory you could add Natural Fighting too, but in practice there's aren't enough feats to spare at higher levels.

I believe this would work in theory and cheese all those feats and because you asked for it - I give you Stewart of Mad TV "Look What I Can Do"

Human 10 Druid / 6 Ranger / Fighter 4

(32 build) Str 18 Dex 14 (+3 tome required) Con 16 Int 8 Wis 8 Chr 8

Fgt SM SWF Precision
Rng
Rng TWF (free) Open Slot (Dodge)
Rng
Rng
Rng ISWF
Rng ITWF (free)
Dr
Fgt ISM IC
Dr
Dr
Dr GSWF
Dr
Dr
Dr GTWF
Dr
Dr
Fgt NF
Fgt NF
Dr
Epic NF

[CPDK9]

I believe this would work in theory and cheese all those feats and because you asked for it - I give you Stewart of Mad TV "Look What I Can Do"

Human 10 Druid / 6 Ranger / Fighter 4

(32 build) Str 18 Dex 14 (+3 tome required) Con 16 Int 8 Wis 8 Chr 8

Fgt SM SWF Precision
Rng
Rng TWF (free) Open Slot (Dodge)
Rng
Rng
Rng ISWF
Rng ITWF (free)
Dr
Fgt ISM IC
Dr
Dr
Dr GSWF
Dr
Dr
Dr GTWF
Dr
Dr
Fgt NF
Fgt NF
Dr
Epic NF

Caught my own mistake - you need the skirmisher enhancement to get the shield bonuses. Odd that the game system allows two weapon bonuses even if you only have one weapon equiped, but does note if you have a shield.

[redoubt]

I believe there is a feat lockout to work around as well. If I understand correctly, you have to take all your SWF feats and THEN take ranger levels to get the TWF feats auto-granted.

[unbongwah]

If I understand correctly, you have to take all your SWF feats and THEN take ranger levels to get the TWF feats auto-granted.

You don't have to take all of the SWF feats; you just have to take the first one before rgr 2, since only the base TWF / SWF feats are mutually exclusive.

[unbongwah]

I prefer to front-load the druid levels to get winter wolf form ASAP. Also, Natural Fighting has to be taken in regular feat slots, not ftr bonus feats.

Alternate build:
YAWB (Yet Another Wolf Build)
10/6/4 Druid/Ranger/Fighter, Epic 1
True Neutral Human


Level Order

1. Druid. . . . . .6. Druid . . . . .11. Fighter. . . . 16. Ranger
2. Druid. . . . . .7. Druid . . . . .12. Fighter. . . . 17. Ranger
3. Druid. . . . . .8. Druid . . . . .13. Ranger . . . . 18. Ranger
4. Druid. . . . . .9. Druid . . . . .14. Ranger . . . . 19. Fighter
5. Druid. . . . . 10. Fighter . . . .15. Ranger . . . . 20. Druid


Stats
. . . . . . . .32pt. . .Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .----. . .---- . . --------
Strength. . . . 18 . . . . . . . .4: STR
Dexterity . . . 14 . . . +3. . . .8: STR
Constitution. . 16 . . . . . . . 12: STR
Intelligence. . .8 . . . . . . . 16: STR
Wisdom. . . . . .8 . . . . . . . 20: STR
Charisma. . . . .8 . . . . . . .


Feats

.1. . . . : Single Weapon Fighting
.1 Human. : Dodge
.2 Druid. : Wild Shape 1: Wolf
.3. . . . : Precision
.5 Druid. : Wild Shape 1: Bear
.6. . . . : Empower Healing Spell
.8 Druid. : Wild Shape 2: Winter Wolf
.9. . . . : Natural Fighting
10 Fighter: Improved Single Weapon Fighting
11 Fighter: Improved Critical: Bludgeoning
12. . . . : Natural Fighting
13 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Undead
15. . . . : Greater Single Weapon Fighting
17 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
18. . . . : Natural Fighting
19 Fighter: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
21 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical


Enhancements (80 AP)

Human (3 AP)

• Damage Boost
  
  1. Improved Recovery

Tempest (36 AP)

• Shield of Whirling Steel
  
  1. Item Defense III, Improved Reaction III, Acrobatic I
  2. Bleed Them Out III, Haste Boost III
  3. Critical Accuracy III, Strength
  4. Critical Damage III, The Growing Storm III, Strength
  5. Dance of Death III

Nature's Warrior (23 AP)

• Nature's Warrior, Instinctive Fighting
  
  1. Extra Wild Empathy III, Athletic I
  2. Flight III, Vengeful Hunter II
  3. Fight III, Improved Dodge III, Fatal Harrier III
  4. Four Legs Good, Essence of the Shrike II

Stalwart Defender (13 AP)

• Toughness, Stalwart Defense
  
  1. Item Defense I, Durable Defense III
  2. Resilient Defense III, Instinctive Defense I
  3. Tenacious Defense III

Kensei (5 AP)

• Kensei Focus: Druidic Weapons
  
  1. Extra Action Boost II

[CPDK9]

I prefer to front-load the druid levels to get winter wolf form ASAP. Also, Natural Fighting has to be taken in regular feat slots, not ftr bonus feats.

Alternate build:
YAWB (Yet Another Wolf Build)
10/6/4 Druid/Ranger/Fighter, Epic 1
True Neutral Human

Thank you for the build. Since my original goal was three past lives, I may try both a pure and this build. I noticed your enhancement choice of DoD over Alpha Strike. Is that a better choice or flavor? Perhaps your build first in case the druid gets a fix - unlikely, but you never know. I must say that I find it odd that new content is continually rolled out, but major fixes go untouched.

[unbongwah]

I noticed your enhancement choice of DoD over Alpha Strike. Is that a better choice or flavor?

When it comes to killing trash mobs, it's tough to beat DoD, particularly on a build which emphasizes atk speed and "offhand" procs like this (which don't apply to Cleaves, inc. Alpha Strikes). The problem is you have to spend a lot of APs on Tempest filler to get it and Growing Storm.

An alternate approach would be to ditch Tempest and put 34+ APs in NW for Alpha Strike & Natural Adept, 26 APs into DWS (Exposing Strike + max Killer), with remaining APs spread between SD, Kensei, and human. You lose the AoE DPS of DoD, but gain doublestrike & extra SAs from DWS; plus the reduced spell CD from Natural Adept means you can spam Gtr Vigor on yourself that much more frequently.

[CPDK9]

Stalwart Defender (13 AP)
[*]Toughness, Stalwart Defense[*]Item Defense I, Durable Defense III[*]Resilient Defense III, Instinctive Defense I[*]Tenacious Defense III

So you can benefit from stalwart defense without a shield in wolf form? And just so I'm clear on equiping - it is still just weapon in main and orb or nothing in other to get benefit from both SWF and TWF.

[unbongwah]

So you can benefit from stalwart defense without a shield in wolf form?

Defensive stance and the Improved Stalwart Defense enhancements will work for anyone; i.e., they don't depend on what gear you have equipped and the bonuses will carry over to animal (or elemental) forms. The Greater Stalwart Defense enhancements require one of the following to be equipped: any shield or medium or heavy armor. Since this build doesn't have Evasion, there's no reason not to use med or hvy armor; see this page for a list of druid-compatible (i.e., non-metal) options.

And just so I'm clear on equiping - it is still just weapon in main and orb or nothing in other to get benefit from both SWF and TWF.

Correct.