Ranged builds are too good so we add melee power... now we add....

[barecm]

They need to make Shiradi Champion a PRIMAL destiny and get all the arcanes out of it. Have the spell procs for ONLY Primal spells and give it a bump in ranged power and melee power for unarmed and two weapon fighting. Shiradi is the worst designed epic destiny that does nothing for the Primal classes (barb, ranger, druid).

Next, the fix for ranged needs to be at the enhancement level, not the typical Band-Aid approach of boosting Epic Destinies. That is what lead up to this screwed up state as it is. While ED combinations can mask the inherent issues with classes, it doesn't fix the underlying issues and so the class balancing efforts will never be fixed until the foundations are fixed.
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For ranger, they need to address the weak enhancements. Make 10k stars for thrown weapons only, remove the double shot penalties from many shot and 10k stars, and address ranged power within the AA and Deepwood Trees. Until they do ALL of this, mucking around with EDs and adding ranged power there is just going to lead to more imbalance and thus never fix the real problems.

[redoubt]

One of my current characters is a 14 pal/6 ranger. I run in fury and do adrenaline arrow of slaying manyshots then use melee the rest of the time. My character doesn't need ranged power to make my kill shots even better.

I like Arlathen's suggestions. If we also fixed the inconsistency of adrenaline (IPS vs cleave, manyshot vs TWF) then we could give FOTW a real ranged power bonus like Shiradi.

At that point you have to worry what this is going to do to shuriken chuckers who manage to get huge dex levels (especially something with 14 pal and 3 monk in it).

I would also like Archer's Focus to grant +10 RP when active as compensation for not using IPS. And maybe another +10 RP to Shot on the Run since no one picks up the feat.

Does Improved Precise Shot negate archer's focus?

[Livmo]

Does Improved Precise Shot negate archer's focus?

They are stances. You cannot use Archer's Focus at the same time as IPS, one stance or the other. I prefer IPS myself.

[redoubt]

I've read some comments about buffing the ranged enhancement trees and not simply doing a band aid via destinies. This does make some sense. I do think shiradi should be made better for archers though.

Maybe through careful buffing of Ranger AA and DWS and fighter we might see a reason to play an archer that is not also a moncher.
1. Put GOOD things at the Ranger AA and fighter level 18, 20 cores that are worth taking over monk levels.
2. Lower the timer on the manyshot double strike penalty. Core 18 could be a reduction of the over 20 second portion by half and the capstone could reduce the penalty to 20 seconds (so you have doublestrke anytime you are not actively using manyshot.)
3. add a +1 enhancement bonus to each of the 18 and 20 cores
4. add +1 crit range to the capstone

How about ranged alacrity? Is this something that could go into the 18/20 cores of Ranger AA, DWS and Fighter? (Arti?)

I'm sure this list is not perfect, but this is the concept. You need 6 monk to be a moncher. Make good things that people will want that prevent you from taking 6 monk. Then you have the option to build an archer as a moncher (still) or as something else.

Note: I put it as the Ranger version of AA because if it was either, then an elf moncher would take advantage of it as well and still be the obvious choice. There may be a good way to incorporate the elf AA tree as well but I have not sorted it out yet. Same for DWS and something in fighter. Also, I'm not trying to leave out artificers; I just don't know them at all.

[Thar]

I've read some comments about buffing the ranged enhancement trees and not simply doing a band aid via destinies. This does make some sense. I do think shiradi should be made better for archers though.

Maybe through careful buffing of Ranger AA and DWS and fighter we might see a reason to play an archer that is not also a moncher.
1. Put GOOD things at the Ranger AA and fighter level 18, 20 cores that are worth taking over monk levels.
2. Lower the timer on the manyshot double strike penalty. Core 18 could be a reduction of the over 20 second portion by half and the capstone could reduce the penalty to 20 seconds (so you have doublestrke anytime you are not actively using manyshot.)
3. add a +1 enhancement bonus to each of the 18 and 20 cores
4. add +1 crit range to the capstone

How about ranged alacrity? Is this something that could go into the 18/20 cores of Ranger AA, DWS and Fighter? (Arti?)

I'm sure this list is not perfect, but this is the concept. You need 6 monk to be a moncher. Make good things that people will want that prevent you from taking 6 monk. Then you have the option to build an archer as a moncher (still) or as something else.

Note: I put it as the Ranger version of AA because if it was either, then an elf moncher would take advantage of it as well and still be the obvious choice. There may be a good way to incorporate the elf AA tree as well but I have not sorted it out yet. Same for DWS and something in fighter. Also, I'm not trying to leave out artificers; I just don't know them at all.

if manyshot/10k stars is a problem combined then say manyshot gives -200 ki when used no matter if you have ki or not.

The doubleshot penalty was stupid as it only hurt non monchers and should be removed.

[Stinging_Bee]

@Severlin I play with some of the top guilds in DDO running EE content and doing speedruns and stuff. Right now in the harder EE content there is no reason to bring any kind of bow using character. Melees are king.
I've tested my monkcher on lammania and I'm glad it received this nice ranged power buff because it is now more closer to melees builds dps (barbarians) even though it is still lower which is fine because I can kite.
Right now there is absolutely ZERO reason to modify monkchers or fury of the wild destiny other than this buff to ranged power which is welcome and will not break anything. Melees are still king on lammania and will stay kind after u25 hits live.
There are already very few monkcher players on live servers and that should tell you something.
If you want to have pure rangers be able to close the gap with monkchers you have to look into deepwood stalker tree.
Buff the capstone of deepwood stalker (only pure rangers can get it) so that they get to have no doubleshot penaly after a manyshot.
In addition to that:
Add good amount of doubleshot in the cores deepwood -->5% doubleshot for each core is fair enough (basically same amount vanguard tree give to attack speed).

[Legic]

@Severlin I play with some of the top guilds in DDO running EE content and doing speedruns and stuff. Right now in the harder EE content there is no reason to bring any kind of bow using character. Melees are king.
I've tested my monkcher on lammania and I'm glad it received this nice ranged power buff because it is now more closer to melees builds dps (barbarians) even though it is still lower which is fine because I can kite.
Right now there is absolutely ZERO reason to modify monkchers or fury of the wild destiny other than this buff to ranged power which is welcome and will not break anything. Melees are still king on lammania and will stay kind after u25 hits live.
There are already very few monkcher players on live servers and that should tell you something.
If you want to have pure rangers be able to close the gap with monkchers you have to look into deepwood stalker tree.
Buff the capstone of deepwood stalker (only pure rangers can get it) so that they get to have no doubleshot penaly after a manyshot.
In addition to that:
Add good amount of doubleshot in the cores deepwood -->5% doubleshot for each core is fair enough (basically same amount vanguard tree give to attack speed).

I exclusively play moncher and I agree entirely with Bee. Ranged builds are underwhelming on live compared to melees/casters especially against groups of monsters with little room to kite. I've said it before but take a look at most of the EE speed runs for most quests/raids(excluding FoT). Monchers have horrible DPS a good part of the time and therefore cannot sustain the damage it takes to hit these speed records. Hellball spamming shiradi casters and Cleaving melees can clear whole rooms of EE monsters 2x as fast these days and they can do it consistently. Ranged builds do need a slight bit of love in order to earn their place next to a group of cleaver machines.

Bee is also right on point mentioning the changes that need to happen for rangers. The arcane archer tree does have a decent amount of Doubleshot in it's core enhancements but they mean nothing with the manyshot de-buff.

What about adding a combat style bonus to ranged attack speed to the higher core enhancements(lvl 18/20 to discourage 10k stars splash) of deepwood stalker? Similar to single handed fighting or vanguard core enhancements? Another option is to use the paladin's fix. Add a couple lvl 4 ranger spells that are actually useful.

Just some thoughts!

[Tilomere]

del

[Mryal]

Bee is also right on point mentioning the changes that need to happen for rangers. The arcane archer tree does have a decent amount of Doubleshot in it's core enhancements but they mean nothing with the manyshot de-buff.
!

Sev stated that if nothing changes, next update is ranger pass.He posted an order of classes that will be reviewed next.its lost somewhere in the massive amount of dev posts in dev tracker in that last two weeks.

[Oxarhamar]

Sev stated that if nothing changes, next update is ranger pass.He posted an order of classes that will be reviewed next.its lost somewhere in the massive amount of dev posts in dev tracker in that last two weeks.

I do believe he did not post an order but, a list with the disclaimer (in no particular order) but, yes where to find it in the mess.

[Blackheartox]

I exclusively play moncher and I agree entirely with Bee. Ranged builds are underwhelming on live compared to melees/casters especially against groups of monsters with little room to kite. I've said it before but take a look at most of the EE speed runs for most quests/raids(excluding FoT). Monchers have horrible DPS a good part of the time and therefore cannot sustain the damage it takes to hit these speed records. Hellball spamming shiradi casters and Cleaving melees can clear whole rooms of EE monsters 2x as fast these days and they can do it consistently. Ranged builds do need a slight bit of love in order to earn their place next to a group of cleaver machines.

Bee is also right on point mentioning the changes that need to happen for rangers. The arcane archer tree does have a decent amount of Doubleshot in it's core enhancements but they mean nothing with the manyshot de-buff.

What about adding a combat style bonus to ranged attack speed to the higher core enhancements(lvl 18/20 to discourage 10k stars splash) of deepwood stalker? Similar to single handed fighting or vanguard core enhancements? Another option is to use the paladin's fix. Add a couple lvl 4 ranger spells that are actually useful.

Just some thoughts!

Trash clear issues on ranged builds?
Play a shuri.

Do not say things that seem like a ultimatum without exploring all options first.

Tosser builds can reach potent boss dps nowadays and extraordinary trash clear.
Playing a monkcher alone does not provide proper feedback imo when it comes to ranged builds.
Try a repeteater dshoot build, try a shuri dshoot or 10 k focused, centerd or uncenterd build, try a bard toss build.

What i mean is, monkcher is not the only way you can play a ee viable fotm ranged build

[MonadRebelion]

@Severlin I play with some of the top guilds in DDO running EE content and doing speedruns and stuff. Right now in the harder EE content there is no reason to bring any kind of bow using character. Melees are king.
I've tested my monkcher on lammania and I'm glad it received this nice ranged power buff because it is now more closer to melees builds dps (barbarians) even though it is still lower which is fine because I can kite.
Right now there is absolutely ZERO reason to modify monkchers or fury of the wild destiny other than this buff to ranged power which is welcome and will not break anything. Melees are still king on lammania and will stay kind after u25 hits live.
There are already very few monkcher players on live servers and that should tell you something.
If you want to have pure rangers be able to close the gap with monkchers you have to look into deepwood stalker tree.
Buff the capstone of deepwood stalker (only pure rangers can get it) so that they get to have no doubleshot penaly after a manyshot.
In addition to that:
Add good amount of doubleshot in the cores deepwood -->5% doubleshot for each core is fair enough (basically same amount vanguard tree give to attack speed).

I don't understand this. Ranged characters need a buff because there are better builds out there? Does everything need to be buffed so much that there is no difference between speed runs between any class? I don't want to play a game where everyone is the same.

[Legic]

What i mean is, monkcher is not the only way you can play a ee viable fotm ranged build

You have a great point, and there are a lot of options out there. I have a guildy that has played nothing but different shuriken builds for the last 6 months and I think they're really cool and potent as well. But they're not capable of handling tougher content without taking a lot more time to get through it. That goes for all ranged builds I've seen/tried in game lately. Mechanically, improved precise shot just can't compare to the cleave chain and that's ok. I think ranged builds in general just need a slight boost to keep them competitive.

[Blackheartox]

You have a great point, and there are a lot of options out there. I have a guildy that has played nothing but different shuriken builds for the last 6 months and I think they're really cool and potent as well. But they're not capable of handling tougher content without taking a lot more time to get through it. That goes for all ranged builds I've seen/tried in game lately. Mechanically, improved precise shot just can't compare to the cleave chain and that's ok. I think ranged builds in general just need a slight boost to keep them competitive.

I agree with that

[harry-pancreas]

.

I think the entire "power" system was a enormous mistake, motivated by vanity of some individuals who wanted to stamp their name on the game. But be that as it may we are all stuck with it now.

i think it was more like a workaround to avoid the ragequit that player's vanity would have caused.

[maddong]

~ Some critical boosts don't work on some thrown weapons so check for that specifically in the core.

Sev~

If you fix critical multipliers with thrown bonuses be sure to check out a drow paladin 14/monk 3/rogue 3 dex build with int secondary, especially with the new ranged power.

With the crossbow buff be sure to check out an int based sun elf paladin 14/artificer 4/fighter 2 (precision, insightful reflexes, pbs, rs, ps, ic ranged, manyshot, ips, oc) with arrow of slaying (46 ap on a sun elf), endless fusilade (22 ap), kta/strategic combat ii (12 ap), and the new ranged power bonuses in fury of the wild (furyshot with manyshot or furyshot with repeater when manyshot is on cooldown) using both pinion and needle.

[Stinging_Bee]

I don't understand this. Ranged characters need a buff because there are better builds out there? Does everything need to be buffed so much that there is no difference between speed runs between any class? I don't want to play a game where everyone is the same.

Nope, I'm not asking for a buff.
OP posted that after the introduction of ranged power there is a risk of ranged characters being too strong.
I don't think it is the case, if anything ranged toons will still be behind best dps builds so no need for nerfs or forum outcry

[General_Gronker]

Your position is built on a flawed premise, that being:

Ranged builds are too good

That is not and has never been the case. Period. We have power creep simply because the designers can't avoid it. The power creep would have been much slower if people in charge had stuck to staying close to the base system of the mothergame instead of thinking they could come up with different "better" systems. And yes, that includes the whole melee/ranged power and PRR/MRR decisions. But those weren't because ranged builds were too good.

You want to scale back the power creep? Convince the developers that they need to get back to the mothergame roots of DDO instead of trying to turn it into a mix of 4E (a fine game on its own, but not the one I'm here to play), Neverwinter, WoW, and some dev's crappy pnp house rules.

[Wizza]

It looks like Legendary Dreadnaught and Unyielding Sentinel got switched. We will fix that for the next Lamannia build. Good catch.

Sev~

How weird. The New Release Notes say nothing about this "fix". LD still has 3 MP per core. Fury still 1.