Temple of Elemental Evil: Round 1 Feedback

[Marten]

I went back and found most of the bugs I was referring to last time, this time with SS that have the locs in them.

Fire Temple wall not meeting up.
You are at: r2 lx1896 ly2024 i9 cInside ox594.46 oy164.71 oz-249.46 h185.6


Nodes that should not be visible on the map.
You are at: r2 lx1896 ly1976 i2 cInside ox-101.44 oy-178.95 oz-85.29 h180.0


A stuck spot in the Earth Node.


Graphic glitch in Earth Node. (ASUS R7 240 Series - DX11 was active)


Since I had a SS on the Orc Tracker in my last post I didn't go back there. Hope this helps.

[dunklezhan]

In terms of incentive for exploring, nothing beats XP. Optionals which *might* spawn are not much incentive if the place takes ages to run anyway. Can you not include some location-based 'Explore the X' optionals?

[slarden]

Some balance changes being worked on, amongst lots of smaller changes & bug fixes as well:

Some monsters can now inflict Brittleskin, a small & brief but stacking reduction to Physical Resistance.

Is this debuff %-based or a fixed number?

A 20% PRR debuff would result in roughly a 5% DR reduction in PRR for all characters. There is some variation up and down but the range is very small regardless of PRR.

A 20 PRR debuff would result in a 2.5% dr reduction for a character with a 200 PRR (200 is 66.67% dr and 180 is 64.29% dr) and a 10% dr reduction for a character with a 50 PRR (50 is 33.33% DR and 30 is 23.08% DR).

So if the debuff isn't %-based it is another mechanic favoring high PRR-builds. The champion system already heavily favors high-PRR builds with the complete fortification bypass debuff which removes the main damage mitigation against crits for low-PRR builds.

If the complete fortification bypass + the new PRR debuff exist on the same character you are simply adding another one-shot mechanic for low-PRR characters.

Whatever it is I am fine with. I just think the champion system is already out of balance with the complete fortification bypass debuff and there is no need for another debuff favoring high-PRR builds. The PRR debuff should be based on a % and not a fixed number. And make that # so it is felt by all builds, e.g., a 80% PRR debuff because high PRR is too much of an easy-button right now. And it should be mutually exclusive with the complete fortification bypass.

[Ausdoerrt]

In terms of incentive for exploring, nothing beats XP. Optionals which *might* spawn are not much incentive if the place takes ages to run anyway. Can you not include some location-based 'Explore the X' optionals?

XP and lore, mind you.

But yes, absolutely agreed. The map is simply too huge to explore and simply hope that something may or may not spawn. With the system in place, the quest will devolve into "zerg for key, then zerg to endchest" for a majority of groups, which is incredibly sad considering the work that went into making this into a nice, big dungeon crawl.

[Hendrik]

XP and lore, mind you.

But yes, absolutely agreed. The map is simply too huge to explore and simply hope that something may or may not spawn. With the system in place, the quest will devolve into "zerg for key, then zerg to endchest" for a majority of groups, which is incredibly sad considering the work that went into making this into a nice, big dungeon crawl.

So, it is going to be just like Haunted Halls.

Great for the first few runs with friends/guild for the ToEE experience then be zerg to X, then to Y, then to Z, loot. And that is only if someone has not already found the loot run in your group.



I feel really bad for the DEVs after HH and now ToEE. All that work and research for the epitomy of a Dungeons and Dragon quest is and should be and 80%+ of it will be ran by in favor of getting loot the fastest.


And the Lore....

It is vast! What was, is, and will be going on at the Temple is an amazing story. But that story has been neutered with the lack of Nulb, Hommlett, and the Moathouse. The lack of those locations is understandable.

I really hope they do dive into the Lore. Why Iuz and Zuggtmoy are there and what the end goal is is vital. Not only for the reasons we are there this time, but opens the door for our Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil and Tharzidun.

I hope everyone takes the time to learn the lore and story of ToEE even if out of game and on the wiki.

[Delacroix21]

Oh! I forgot to mention the stupid Starved Griffons! They were hitting me (non-CRIT!) for 450 to 550 damage with 180 PRR, that is freaking ridiculous.


I still hate champion mobs with the super damage buff too, it's crazy that you allow they do do 400 damage a swing and if you run into 2 or more champions with the damage buff you are going to die or forced to use range.

[Krell]

Regarding incentives for exploration, I should mention that in the first dungeon you have a higher chance of encountering rares if you explore off the critical path. Plus there will be an optional you can only do by going off the beaten path.

In general I think we'll need a lot of incentives for exploration to achieve that goal. Loot, XP, special buffs, etc. Make the rare reward worth the time after you have the loot. Maybe some system to ensure a minimum number of rares spawn somewhere to avoid players getting "burnt" by random numbers after taking the time to explore.

[Vargouille]

Thanks for the continued and often detailed feedback.

Will the title of the enemy and the fort saves line up if this is being done behind the scenes? Or will groups of enemies with the same name have fort saves that vary greatly?

As a general rule, monsters with the same name have the same saving throws. There's probably some exceptions somewhere, but we do prefer that you can learn which enemies have which kind of saving throws.

We also did look into saves more and some high Fortitude saves will be a lot lower than before; Fortitude in particular was somewhat unnaturally higher than Reflex and Will saves.

Is this debuff %-based or a fixed number?

This is a fixed debuff to PRR (currently -2) and stacks very high. The characters who will be most harmed by it are those that many hits from many weak enemies, as the repeated hits will gradually increase in damage. (Obviously, anyone is should be in some trouble if they get hit many times by many strong enemies.) It's true that low PRR characters are affected differently than high here, but if you are a low PRR but high dodge (displaced/etc.) character you should also get hit less, and therefore receiving fewers stacks of the debuff. The stacking nature of the debuff is vital to how it players out.

[LeoLionxxx]

This is a fixed debuff to PRR (currently -2) and stacks very high. The characters who will be most harmed by it are those that many hits from many weak enemies, as the repeated hits will gradually increase in damage. (Obviously, anyone is should be in some trouble if they get hit many times by many strong enemies.) It's true that low PRR characters are affected differently than high here, but if you are a low PRR but high dodge (displaced/etc.) character you should also get hit less, and therefore receiving fewers stacks of the debuff. The stacking nature of the debuff is vital to how it players out.

Crazy thought: what if this type of penalty to PRR/MRR were to replace the harried condition for, at least the lower tiers of, dungeon alerts? Who hasn't been frustrated by being slowed to less than a snail whilst fighting a large group of enemies? Players in general dislike having their movement restricted, but I feel like an effective increase to mob damage based on their numbers would still give good motivation to clean up the enemies.

[slarden]

Thanks for the continued and often detailed feedback.

As a general rule, monsters with the same name have the same saving throws. There's probably some exceptions somewhere, but we do prefer that you can learn which enemies have which kind of saving throws.

We also did look into saves more and some high Fortitude saves will be a lot lower than before; Fortitude in particular was somewhat unnaturally higher than Reflex and Will saves.


This is a fixed debuff to PRR (currently -2) and stacks very high. The characters who will be most harmed by it are those that many hits from many weak enemies, as the repeated hits will gradually increase in damage. (Obviously, anyone is should be in some trouble if they get hit many times by many strong enemies.) It's true that low PRR characters are affected differently than high here, but if you are a low PRR but high dodge (displaced/etc.) character you should also get hit less, and therefore receiving fewers stacks of the debuff. The stacking nature of the debuff is vital to how it players out.

Thank you very much this all makes sense.

Enemy archers are typically no real threat. Now if they have this debuff they will be a real problem which makes the game more challenging and fun. Thank you.

[Powskier]

Negative, just pointing out how Temple of Elemental Evil is a solid adventure pack, and amply challenging in it's current state as long as you're not rolling meta-builds and high-end loot. With these present, however, the quests become a bit too easy.

this is the case in most of ddo- now devs are slammin 10 times the # of enemies into our harddrives to compensate for power creep; most enemies l8ly are lazy bowmen that spam the combat engine with tenzillion arrow shots...please not again ..I have not read what type of enemies ya'll are seeing- melee? / some casters I read / humanoid? / grrrr- archers galore?

[caberonia]

Thanks for the continued and often detailed feedback.

As a general rule, monsters with the same name have the same saving throws. There's probably some exceptions somewhere, but we do prefer that you can learn which enemies have which kind of saving throws.

We also did look into saves more and some high Fortitude saves will be a lot lower than before; Fortitude in particular was somewhat unnaturally higher than Reflex and Will saves.


This is a fixed debuff to PRR (currently -2) and stacks very high. The characters who will be most harmed by it are those that many hits from many weak enemies, as the repeated hits will gradually increase in damage. (Obviously, anyone is should be in some trouble if they get hit many times by many strong enemies.) It's true that low PRR characters are affected differently than high here, but if you are a low PRR but high dodge (displaced/etc.) character you should also get hit less, and therefore receiving fewers stacks of the debuff. The stacking nature of the debuff is vital to how it players out.

So lets see if I understand this. Inherently lower PRR builds will get hit less reducing their PRR but less than HIgh PRR builds (in theory), Since dodge max is tied to armor high PRR builds can do very little to avoid this (mechanically not play style wise). Theoretically sounds good. If you're ignoring that AC while considered useless does still offer some slight "dodge" chance, and Harmor builds inherently have higher AC. Part of the problem of the whole armor up deal IMO is the devs ignored that AC was "dodge" before you all added "dodge" as a separate stat. (but that's another discussion we'll ignore outside of the fact that the mechanic still alters the theorycraft of this new -PRR buff)

Problem for me is.. alls your doing is reducing PRR for all builds without actually doing it.. because even max dodge isn't going to avoid every hit. Then you add in the buffs to champs etc such as true sight.. and things like displacement are still sub par to a high PRR. Since even with getting stacking -PRR the higher your PRR the more of this debuff you can handle. This will just end up causing people to wait for the debuff to wear in between encounters.. not much else. Thats my prediction.

Part of the issue i see with ddo is the refusal to revisit and fix something, always opting to add something to try to fix the thing that got broke.. which was added to fix the last thing that was broke which was added to...etc etc etc. Go back fix the mechanics that are broken.. quit adding new ones to try to put a band aid on it, which will lead to a new one etc etc etc.

Heavy armor should offer the best physical damage mitigation.. that's not the issue. The issue at this point is that it offers the best physical and magic mitigation and with the advent of champs there is no reason to build for any other defensive stat (PRR/MRR are the only viable defense against all mobs). There needs to be some kind of trade off.. until there is a negative side or some advantage to NOT maxing out PRR via harmor.. the current status quo isn't going to change. I'm kind of confused what you're trying to accomplish with this debuff given that its a fixed amount stacking debuff the player solution is going to be.. wait for it.. MORE PRR. (and waiting a few seconds between battles for the debuff to wear)

Do you expect people to say OMG my 215 PRR has been reduced to 195 i better trade my HARMOR for more dodge? More than likely the result will be OMG my 80 PRR was reduced to 60... i better get more PRR *runs off to splash paladin*

[Vargouille]

I'm kind of confused what you're trying to accomplish with this debuff

Some things this is not: It's not about PRR, nor is it trying to "fix" anything with PRR in a large way. It could have been some other kind of debuff (a stacking DOT would have be simple and still might fit "Elemental Evil" better). It's not about changing all of DDO or build choices or play styles in all future content. It's a Temple thing - it could be something we use elsewhere in a similar form, or not if it doesn't make DDO better. It might never show up again, or may evolve into something "better", because we always want to do better.

This is partially an experiment (as every update in DDO is) to try something new. If it works other kinds of debuffs, possibly somewhat similar, may happen. As with anything a monster does, we do expect gameplay to happen around it (not merely build choices).

Theoretical Problem: Weak monsters are often highly ineffective against player characters, even when massed to very high numbers.

This is a possible kind of solution that doesn't particularly make these weak monsters much more dangerous, unless you are trying to fight a great many of them at once. Obviously we don't expect most players to play very differently at all if they are getting -2 or -4 PRR. -100 PRR may be worth playing around. There are certainly some player characters who wade in and take dozens of hits in a few seconds. Exactly how it's dealt with will likely vary from player to player and character to character, which is fine.

We're not trying to universally change how DDO is played. We're trying something new for Temple of Elemental Evil (for the next Lamannia build, anyway!) that lets us make one area different from another, whether that's different quests entirely or areas within a quest. We have to keep trying new things to keep things interesting and different. This is an important part of our job!

[caberonia]

Theoretical Problem: Weak monsters are often highly ineffective against player characters, even when massed to very high numbers.

Well being weak monsters that would seem to be the design goal.. i mean wouldn't you put strong monsters in rather than weak ones if the goal was to add challenge?
That being said I have no issue with new monster ablities being added to challenge players. I would offer the suggestion that such abilities are given to specific monster types and not randomly. e.g Super fire mephit has X buff where as Super ice mephits have Y buff, or maybe even Mephits of all types have X buff and Orcs of all types have Y buff.

Some things this is not: It's not about PRR, nor is it trying to "fix" anything with PRR in a large way. It could have been some other kind of debuff (a stacking DOT would have be simple and still might fit "Elemental Evil" better). It's not about changing all of DDO or build choices or play styles in all future content. It's a Temple thing... /snip

Ah.. it was misrepresented in another thread.. My apologies for the off topic diatribe then. *sneaks out of the thread quietly*

[redoubt]

This is a fixed debuff to PRR (currently -2) and stacks very high. The characters who will be most harmed by it are those that many hits from many weak enemies, as the repeated hits will gradually increase in damage. (Obviously, anyone is should be in some trouble if they get hit many times by many strong enemies.) It's true that low PRR characters are affected differently than high here, but if you are a low PRR but high dodge (displaced/etc.) character you should also get hit less, and therefore receiving fewers stacks of the debuff. The stacking nature of the debuff is vital to how it players out.

A few questions:
1. Is this "brittle skin" a ToEE only thing or will it be added to mobs throughout the game?
2. How high will this stack?

A couple initial comments:
1. As others have said, a straight number debuff is harder on low PRR characters. You've already negated the value of concealment with the high numbers of champions and True Seeing, so you can't hide behind blur and displacement as preventing this debuff on light armor. Light armor also doesn't have enough AC to get missed that way. So we are left with dodge for light armor. That means that 75% of the time you are getting this debuff.
2. The diminishing returns formula means that the debuff at low levels is more hurtful than the debuff at high level. Just a small 10 stack (-20 prr) is:
200-180 PRR or 2.4%
60-40 PRR is 9%
If it stacks high, like -50 PRR then a tank goes from 200 to 150, losing 6.7%, while a light armor goes from 60 to 10, losing 28%.

[Ayseifn]

A few questions:
1. Is this "brittle skin" a ToEE only thing or will it be added to mobs throughout the game?
2. How high will this stack?

A couple initial comments:
1. As others have said, a straight number debuff is harder on low PRR characters. You've already negated the value of concealment with the high numbers of champions and True Seeing, so you can't hide behind blur and displacement as preventing this debuff on light armor. Light armor also doesn't have enough AC to get missed that way. So we are left with dodge for light armor. That means that 75% of the time you are getting this debuff.
2. The diminishing returns formula means that the debuff at low levels is more hurtful than the debuff at high level. Just a small 10 stack (-20 prr) is:
200-180 PRR or 2.4%
60-40 PRR is 9%
If it stacks high, like -50 PRR then a tank goes from 200 to 150, losing 6.7%, while a light armor goes from 60 to 10, losing 28%.

1: You have both dodge and incorporeal, if displace doesn't work vs the monster then the difference of your dodge/incorp to that of a heavy armoured build is just as effective. As for AC it's one of the systems that are getting ignored unfortunately which is a shame, rouges could do with some AC buffs in their trees even if they're for most builders just flavour.
2: Yes, but because of 1 you should be getting debuffed less often.

Edit: 20 debuff attacks at 2 PRR per attack would mean:

Heavy armour toon with 9% dodge and 10% incorp loses 31 PRR and 15.5 with displace.
Light armour toon with 25% incorp and 30% dodge loses 20 PRR and 10 with displace.

[Seikojin]

I have no problem with a debuff to mrr or prr or both at the same time.

[Seikojin]

The main boss in part 2 stops fighting after a while.

Sometimes you can't enter the quest in an existing party. Have to close the game and restart to be able to enter.

The quest can be very easy since the wind key owner (caster) is in a fixed location near the shrine. If he was in a random location, it would at least force players to explore for him. And lore wise, I think it would make sense.

[redoubt]

1: You have both dodge and incorporeal, if displace doesn't work vs the monster then the difference of your dodge/incorp to that of a heavy armoured build is just as effective. As for AC it's one of the systems that are getting ignored unfortunately which is a shame, rouges could do with some AC buffs in their trees even if they're for most builders just flavour.
2: Yes, but because of 1 you should be getting debuffed less often.

Edit: 20 debuff attacks at 2 PRR per attack would mean:

Heavy armour toon with 9% dodge and 10% incorp loses 31 PRR and 15.5 with displace.
Light armour toon with 25% incorp and 30% dodge loses 20 PRR and 10 with displace.

Using your numbers:
Heavy armor user drops from 200 to 169 and loses 2.5% mitigation.
Light armor user drop from 60 to 50 and loses 4.2% mitigation.
So even without adjusting your numbers for what is more realistic, the light armor wearer is worse off.

Now, displace is even between them so drop that out, but still assume everyone in light armor is a monk, a pale master or a shadow dancer and you get:
Heavy armor user: -2.5% mitigation
Light armor user drops from 60 to 40 and loses 9% mitigation.

Now we move on to what I had actually talked about which include the high probability of champions with true seeing (champions are when I most want mitigation):
--Heavy armor with 10% dodge takes 18 hits (-2 for dodge), then down to 16 hits (-2 more for AC). Debuff of -32 PRR or a loss of 3.5% damage mitigation (and less if AC stops more than 10% of attacks)
--Light armor with 25% dodge takes 15 hits (-5 for dodge). Debuff of -30 PRR or a loss of 24.5% damage mitigation.

You have the same argument as the one I quoted. That is to claim that the better having displacement (which is equal between them light and heavy) somehow helps light armor users more. That is not accurate. Then you start talking about incorp. Game sources of incorp are:
10%
Feywild Tap (Elf enhancement) - 10%
Ghostly (item enchantment) - 10%

25%
Ghostly Essence (Shadar-kai enhancement)
Shadow Veil (Ninja Spy 3rd core enhancement)
Shadow Form (Shadowdancer epic destiny)
Shroud of the Wraith (Pale Master 4th core enhancement)
Walk with the Spirits (Primal Avatar epic destiny)

35%
Shroud of the Wraith with Improved Shrouding (Pale Master T5 enhancement)

I'm good with assuming a ghostly item (which is even for all levels of armor/PRR), but it seems you are assuming that all light armor users are either a Pale Master, monk or are in the shadowdancer tree. This is not true.

You also assume that all light armor builds can get to 30% dodge. Flawless Shadow Dragonhide armor has a max dex bonus of 19. I will go along and say that people will gain 6 more (lithe is an easy twist). And that is just getting the MDB up, you still have to get the dodge for it. Not many light armor builds will have the feats to do the Dodge > Mobility > Spring Attack line. Most enhancement trees offer up 3%. If you can combine a couple trees you may get 6% and you 3% from the dodge feat that you have to take to access the enhancements. 10 from an item gets you to 19% The rest relies on monk/rogue levels, past lives, or Epic Destinies. So again, to proffer 30% as the standard is a less than accurate portrayal of real light armor users by cherry picking the best available from one build and combining it with the best available from another.

For example, I'm building a wolf melee druid with rogue and ranger levels. This is a dps build with full trap skills and evasion. This build will not have PM levels, monk levels, nor SD levels. The incorporeal miss chance is a non-player and should not be assumed as benefit of all light armor builds. To do so is to remove a great deal of flexibility in character building.

A month, maybe more ago, there was a discussion about giving the champions a PRR debuff. We went through this discussion then and it appeared that people realized that a % debuff was better and the discussion died away. Now it is suddenly back as a straight number debuff. Also think about how popular debuffs like the ones in FOT and Miior are. Same for fortification bypass or disjunction. I'm not saying that mobs should never debuff us. We absolutely HATE it, which means it works. So they should, but care needs to be taken. The dispel > disjunction line needs to be revamped so that it is equal between mobs and players. Fort bypass needs to be replaced with a fort reduction (just like it works for us.) Because PRR is a diminishing returns formula, any debuff to it must take that into account because a straight number debuff adversely affects those who need it most and will drive more people into heavy armor. Even before I knew about this I was looking for ways to put my druid into heavy armor; light was just not good enough. This just adds more reason to build for high PRR (like nothing else matters.)

Lastly, how high do the stacks go? 25? And how fast do they expire? Are we going to be down 50 PRR? 60? Consider the "high stacking"...
Heavy armor goes from 200 to 140 and has a loss of 8.3% mitigation and has 58.3% remaining.
Light armor goes from 60 to 0 and has a loss of 37.5% and has ZERO remaining.

[Wizza]

Some things this is not: It's not about PRR, nor is it trying to "fix" anything with PRR in a large way. It could have been some other kind of debuff (a stacking DOT would have be simple and still might fit "Elemental Evil" better). It's not about changing all of DDO or build choices or play styles in all future content. It's a Temple thing - it could be something we use elsewhere in a similar form, or not if it doesn't make DDO better. It might never show up again, or may evolve into something "better", because we always want to do better.

This is partially an experiment (as every update in DDO is) to try something new. If it works other kinds of debuffs, possibly somewhat similar, may happen. As with anything a monster does, we do expect gameplay to happen around it (not merely build choices).

Theoretical Problem: Weak monsters are often highly ineffective against player characters, even when massed to very high numbers.

This is a possible kind of solution that doesn't particularly make these weak monsters much more dangerous, unless you are trying to fight a great many of them at once. Obviously we don't expect most players to play very differently at all if they are getting -2 or -4 PRR. -100 PRR may be worth playing around. There are certainly some player characters who wade in and take dozens of hits in a few seconds. Exactly how it's dealt with will likely vary from player to player and character to character, which is fine.

We're not trying to universally change how DDO is played. We're trying something new for Temple of Elemental Evil (for the next Lamannia build, anyway!) that lets us make one area different from another, whether that's different quests entirely or areas within a quest. We have to keep trying new things to keep things interesting and different. This is an important part of our job!

This really should be a % PRR Debuff and not a fixed number. The math was done by redoubt already, this is gonna hurt builds with already low PRR (Rogues, casters, divines, archers) and not the ones to which this debuff should be aimed for. I also think -2 PRR is absolutely meaningless and so would be 2%. I can see a 5% PRR debuff already being meaningful enough to worry the higher PRR builds.

Let's see a scenario where a character with high PRR goes into a mass, say 10, of weaker mobs (the ones that gives this debuff). He will be hit 10 times and thus gets a -20 PRR debuff total after killing all of them. However, since these are weaker mobs, they will still hit for a non-meaningful amount of damage. Also, always since they are weaker mobs, they will be dead by the time the character will have 10 stacks. What happens next is, since you said this will be a BRIEF debuff, the stack will be gone by the time it reaches the next encounter, where the same thing will happen.

My suggestion is to make each stack make add X seconds to the counter. You get hit once, you have 3 seconds of this debuff (or whatever the timer is now). You get hit again, times goes up by another 3 seconds, 6 seconds total. Now times passes, you have 2 second of this debuff left but you get hit. 2+3 = 5 seconds total again. This will mean that if you face take a swarm of lesser mobs and get hit 10 times in rapid succession, you have a meaningful debuff of -50% PRR for 30 seconds, which is enough time to start the next encounter. Maybe they could fade at the same speed as well. Every 3 seconds you lose 1 stack.

So the plan would be to make the PRR debuff be high enough and lasting enough to actually worry you but by the time you reach the next encounter, your stacks will go down to 3-4.

This is the only thing I can come up with at the moment, it's morning so forgive my plain ideas