Temple of Elemental Evil: Round 1 Feedback

[slarden]

Some things this is not: It's not about PRR, nor is it trying to "fix" anything with PRR in a large way. It could have been some other kind of debuff (a stacking DOT would have be simple and still might fit "Elemental Evil" better). It's not about changing all of DDO or build choices or play styles in all future content. It's a Temple thing - it could be something we use elsewhere in a similar form, or not if it doesn't make DDO better. It might never show up again, or may evolve into something "better", because we always want to do better.

This is partially an experiment (as every update in DDO is) to try something new. If it works other kinds of debuffs, possibly somewhat similar, may happen. As with anything a monster does, we do expect gameplay to happen around it (not merely build choices).

Theoretical Problem: Weak monsters are often highly ineffective against player characters, even when massed to very high numbers.

This is a possible kind of solution that doesn't particularly make these weak monsters much more dangerous, unless you are trying to fight a great many of them at once. Obviously we don't expect most players to play very differently at all if they are getting -2 or -4 PRR. -100 PRR may be worth playing around. There are certainly some player characters who wade in and take dozens of hits in a few seconds. Exactly how it's dealt with will likely vary from player to player and character to character, which is fine.

We're not trying to universally change how DDO is played. We're trying something new for Temple of Elemental Evil (for the next Lamannia build, anyway!) that lets us make one area different from another, whether that's different quests entirely or areas within a quest. We have to keep trying new things to keep things interesting and different. This is an important part of our job!

I am not about to complain about the debuff - it sounds fun, but I hope the devs understand the gap that exists between low PRR and high PRR characters. This appears to be yet another debuff that will be signficantly worse for low-PRR characters.

If a low PRR character (40 PRR) is hit with 20 stacks of this -2 debuff their DR drops from 28.57% to 0. If a 200 PRR character is hit with 20 stacks of the -2 debuff their DR drops from 66.67 to 61.54%. So now the enemy that is supposedly more dangerous is hitting the low PRR character for 100% damage and the 200 PRR character is getting hit for about the same amount and if they are considered weak I assume the 30 DR those high PRR characters receive from Shadow Guardian is significant before the damage reduction is even applied.

You succeeded in making these weaker damage monsters more dangerous against low PRR characters. I think you failed to do so against high PRR characters with Shadow Guardian. I fail to see how a 5% DR debuff on a character with 30 damage reduction is going to be felt against enemies that are considered weak. Obviously a large mob of these weaker enemies will be considerably stronger against a low PRR character without Shadow Guardian especially if it's a very large mob.

Have you considered that part of the problem with these weaker damage monsters is Shadow Guardian? There is a very simple way to resolve that. Give some monster weapons with the "Epic" type so they bypass this DR.

I realize you say you aren't trying to change build choices with this debuff and that it's a Temple thing, but it seems like yet another debuff that hurts low PRR characters and will have no impact on high PRR characters with Shadow Guardian armor unless I am missing something.

[slarden]

A few questions:
1. Is this "brittle skin" a ToEE only thing or will it be added to mobs throughout the game?
2. How high will this stack?

A couple initial comments:
1. As others have said, a straight number debuff is harder on low PRR characters. You've already negated the value of concealment with the high numbers of champions and True Seeing, so you can't hide behind blur and displacement as preventing this debuff on light armor. Light armor also doesn't have enough AC to get missed that way. So we are left with dodge for light armor. That means that 75% of the time you are getting this debuff.
2. The diminishing returns formula means that the debuff at low levels is more hurtful than the debuff at high level. Just a small 10 stack (-20 prr) is:
200-180 PRR or 2.4%
60-40 PRR is 9%
If it stacks high, like -50 PRR then a tank goes from 200 to 150, losing 6.7%, while a light armor goes from 60 to 10, losing 28%.

This. As I stated earlier a % debuff ends up applying more equally in terms of impact regardless of PRR and a straight debuff # will have the biggest impact on low PRR characters. The only problem with a % based approach is that there will be sweet spots for PRR due to rounding unless you can track PRR with decimal points.

[Ayseifn]

Using your numbers:
Heavy armor user drops from 200 to 169 and loses 2.5% mitigation.
Light armor user drop from 60 to 50 and loses 4.2% mitigation.
So even without adjusting your numbers for what is more realistic, the light armor wearer is worse off.

Now, displace is even between them so drop that out, but still assume everyone in light armor is a monk, a pale master or a shadow dancer and you get:
Heavy armor user: -2.5% mitigation
Light armor user drops from 60 to 40 and loses 9% mitigation.

Now we move on to what I had actually talked about which include the high probability of champions with true seeing (champions are when I most want mitigation):
--Heavy armor with 10% dodge takes 18 hits (-2 for dodge), then down to 16 hits (-2 more for AC). Debuff of -32 PRR or a loss of 3.5% damage mitigation (and less if AC stops more than 10% of attacks)
--Light armor with 25% dodge takes 15 hits (-5 for dodge). Debuff of -30 PRR or a loss of 24.5% damage mitigation.

You have the same argument as the one I quoted. That is to claim that the better having displacement (which is equal between them light and heavy) somehow helps light armor users more. That is not accurate. Then you start talking about incorp. Game sources of incorp are:
10%
Feywild Tap (Elf enhancement) - 10%
Ghostly (item enchantment) - 10%

25%
Ghostly Essence (Shadar-kai enhancement)
Shadow Veil (Ninja Spy 3rd core enhancement)
Shadow Form (Shadowdancer epic destiny)
Shroud of the Wraith (Pale Master 4th core enhancement)
Walk with the Spirits (Primal Avatar epic destiny)

35%
Shroud of the Wraith with Improved Shrouding (Pale Master T5 enhancement)

I'm good with assuming a ghostly item (which is even for all levels of armor/PRR), but it seems you are assuming that all light armor users are either a Pale Master, monk or are in the shadowdancer tree. This is not true.

You also assume that all light armor builds can get to 30% dodge. Flawless Shadow Dragonhide armor has a max dex bonus of 19. I will go along and say that people will gain 6 more (lithe is an easy twist). And that is just getting the MDB up, you still have to get the dodge for it. Not many light armor builds will have the feats to do the Dodge > Mobility > Spring Attack line. Most enhancement trees offer up 3%. If you can combine a couple trees you may get 6% and you 3% from the dodge feat that you have to take to access the enhancements. 10 from an item gets you to 19% The rest relies on monk/rogue levels, past lives, or Epic Destinies. So again, to proffer 30% as the standard is a less than accurate portrayal of real light armor users by cherry picking the best available from one build and combining it with the best available from another.

For example, I'm building a wolf melee druid with rogue and ranger levels. This is a dps build with full trap skills and evasion. This build will not have PM levels, monk levels, nor SD levels. The incorporeal miss chance is a non-player and should not be assumed as benefit of all light armor builds. To do so is to remove a great deal of flexibility in character building.

A month, maybe more ago, there was a discussion about giving the champions a PRR debuff. We went through this discussion then and it appeared that people realized that a % debuff was better and the discussion died away. Now it is suddenly back as a straight number debuff. Also think about how popular debuffs like the ones in FOT and Miior are. Same for fortification bypass or disjunction. I'm not saying that mobs should never debuff us. We absolutely HATE it, which means it works. So they should, but care needs to be taken. The dispel > disjunction line needs to be revamped so that it is equal between mobs and players. Fort bypass needs to be replaced with a fort reduction (just like it works for us.) Because PRR is a diminishing returns formula, any debuff to it must take that into account because a straight number debuff adversely affects those who need it most and will drive more people into heavy armor. Even before I knew about this I was looking for ways to put my druid into heavy armor; light was just not good enough. This just adds more reason to build for high PRR (like nothing else matters.)

Lastly, how high do the stacks go? 25? And how fast do they expire? Are we going to be down 50 PRR? 60? Consider the "high stacking"...
Heavy armor goes from 200 to 140 and has a loss of 8.3% mitigation and has 58.3% remaining.
Light armor goes from 60 to 0 and has a loss of 37.5% and has ZERO remaining.

This is the rogue update so I was just spit balling rogue numbers, TBH most assassins go with shadowdancer and splashing 6 monk on an acrobat isn't all that outlandish. As for the 30 dodge that was low balling it just like the 60 PRR is low for a light armour wearer if you're comparing to 200 for heavy. Remember that after this update, at full BAB heavy gives 64 PRR while light gives 26 so the gap should only be huge if you allow it to be.

As for the fort bypass it's mostly fine as is, maybe stop certain really rough combos lie TS+bypass+damage boost. The point of champions is to be something that makes you pay attention and to and liven up quests you've done hundreds of times, not be something you base builds around. If it was only a reduction then we'd all just either build our toons to never get critted like the old cap 20 days with heavy fort, or to whatever CR mobs are out there and can SA(~175ish now?) recently, or ignore it and maybe complain about balance. More complaints that bladeforged are OP again would just waste dev time on something that isn't needed in the first place because it's working as intended.

Edit: Your dodge/incorp also wont fall away so while you get hit a lot harder you'll still be missed just as much. That heavy wearing dude who got hit all the time will still get hit all the time just harder, so having more PRR makes sense here as it's more likely that PRR will be their only defence. Will have to check it out when it hits Lamannia but on paper it could work just fine.

[Enderoc]

Crazy thought: what if this type of penalty to PRR/MRR were to replace the harried condition for, at least the lower tiers of, dungeon alerts? Who hasn't been frustrated by being slowed to less than a snail whilst fighting a large group of enemies? Players in general dislike having their movement restricted, but I feel like an effective increase to mob damage based on their numbers would still give good motivation to clean up the enemies.

Awesome idea....keep champions, rid of dungeon alerts

[slarden]

As for the fort bypass it's mostly fine as is, maybe stop certain really rough combos lie TS+bypass+damage boost. The point of champions is to be something that makes you pay attention and to and liven up quests you've done hundreds of times, not be something you base builds around.

Again this another debuff that mainly hurts low PRR characters since fortification is the main form of mitigation against crits. High PRR characters still get DR from shadow guardian and then their DR. Of course shadow guardian isn't as much a factor here, but still they aren't taking enough to get one-shot unlike a low-PRR character.

I play 3 high PRR characters and 1 rogue. I would like to see the system more balanced is all. I don't think creating more threats/danger for low-PRR characters does anything to create challenge for high-PRR characters.

[Vargouille]

A few questions:
1. Is this "brittle skin" a ToEE only thing or will it be added to mobs throughout the game?
2. How high will this stack?

We are only discussing Temple of Elemental Evil for this. It could of course appear in the future, but this isn't something that's showing up in all quests throughout DDO. I think some players are thinking this is far more broad than it is, and it may have been a mistake for me to call it out in a way that draws extra attention to it. It's just a new ability being given to a few brand new monsters, which happens all the time.

Let's see a scenario where a character with high PRR goes into a mass, say 10, of weaker mobs (the ones that gives this debuff). He will be hit 10 times and thus gets a -20 PRR debuff total after killing all of them. However, since these are weaker mobs, they will still hit for a non-meaningful amount of damage. Also, always since they are weaker mobs, they will be dead by the time the character will have 10 stacks. What happens next is, since you said this will be a BRIEF debuff, the stack will be gone by the time it reaches the next encounter, where the same thing will happen.

(1) Weak monsters can be accompanied by stronger monsters; the debuff is on the player character (not a buff on the monsters), so that one strong monster may still be dealing quite a bit more damage if this is getting stacked high.
(2) For comparison, we expect more dodgy or ranged characters to have fewer than 10 stacks here.
(3) This is not necessarily a bad scenario per se. I'm not sure what the goal you are looking for here; we aren't necessarily trying to make every encounter with 10 weak enemies vastly more life threatening. But it should make situations with 50 weak enemies much more dangerous. These are situations that do come up, though not for all players. That's fine.

My suggestion is to make each stack make add X seconds to the counter. You get hit once, you have 3 seconds of this debuff (or whatever the timer is now). You get hit again, times goes up by another 3 seconds, 6 seconds total. Now times passes, you have 2 second of this debuff left but you get hit. 2+3 = 5 seconds total again. This will mean that if you face take a swarm of lesser mobs and get hit 10 times in rapid succession, you have a meaningful debuff of -50% PRR for 30 seconds, which is enough time to start the next encounter. Maybe they could fade at the same speed as well. Every 3 seconds you lose 1 stack.

So the plan would be to make the PRR debuff be high enough and lasting enough to actually worry you but by the time you reach the next encounter, your stacks will go down to 3-4.

This version seems like it punishes low PRR characters more. A potentially long-lasting large PRR debuff can't be shaken off and even one application can make the next hit massive. The small goal with this small change for some of the weaker monsters in Temple was to make wading dozens of enemies a bad idea. It was also an experiment to inject some gameplay into weak enemies, even if it won't change common gameplay very much. These are still intended to be weak enemies overall; if the main result is you pause for a few seconds to let the stacks disappear entirely between groups, that may be OK.

Whether or not the stacks all fade at once or don't even stack up (but instead only add duration) are options we can consider.

We'd like to see it played out on Lamannia before jumping to too many conclusions (the variety of ways to play DDO means that's a much better way to find out what happens than theorycrafting), and it's just one part of many other changes that are quite possibly more significant (saving throws, damage from monsters on H/E, dropping some HP, adding some Fortification to bosses which they entirely lacked in the first Lamannia build, etc.)

[Delacroix21]

The small goal with this small change for some of the weaker monsters in Temple was to make wading dozens of enemies a bad idea. It was also an experiment to inject some gameplay into weak enemies, even if it won't change common gameplay very much. These are still intended to be weak enemies overall; if the main result is you pause for a few seconds to let the stacks disappear entirely between groups, that may be OK.)

Except two things: this change hits Melee the most (like EVERY change to make the game harder), and small mobs allready serve a purpose to surround you so the champion(s) with the damage buff hit you for 400+ damage and splat you.


Seriously Varg, the Devs haven't put forward a single "ranged" survivability mechanic were range take bonus damage and frequent damage comparable to Melee.


Making a viable solo EE Melee toon is hard, making a soloEE ranged toon is easy (even on a first life). Please go back to the drawing board and look for a way to make ranged characters take more damage then they currently do on live.

[Blackheartox]

Except two things: this change hits Melee the most (like EVERY change to make the game harder), and small mobs allready serve a purpose to surround you so the champion(s) with the damage buff hit you for 400+ damage and splat you.


Seriously Varg, the Devs haven't put forward a single "ranged" survivability mechanic were range take bonus damage and frequent damage comparable to Melee.


Making a viable solo EE Melee toon is hard, making a soloEE ranged toon is easy (even on a first life). Please go back to the drawing board and look for a way to make ranged characters take more damage then they currently do on live.

6th lifer, 160 prr cleaving barb with +3 tomes alt barb cleaving thro ee without a single care in the world with wizz sorc and fsoul plifes is hard to play.
Tr to palie, have more prr, can survive forever in ee swarms of mobs.

We are talking about a current ee melle with almost to no gear and melle relevant past lifes and no epic past lifes yet.

While a ranged has "range" as its disposal, melles have harmor, massive prr, and shadow guardian.

I personally welcome such a buff to melle mobs.
THey are needed to shake the current meta of all barbs and palies.

They dont call this update the barbarian update for no reason

[Seikojin]

As a completionist melee build, the small debuff wouldn't really impact me in the long run. I can still run into hordes of trash, slaughter them all with weapons I picked up along the way and keep going. Pure fighter. So no uber crit profiles and multipliers. Which I do on purpose to show that every play style is supportable.

Ranged do have a threat, backspawns and patrols.

[Qhualor]

This version seems like it punishes low PRR characters more. A potentially long-lasting large PRR debuff can't be shaken off and even one application can make the next hit massive. The small goal with this small change for some of the weaker monsters in Temple was to make wading dozens of enemies a bad idea. It was also an experiment to inject some gameplay into weak enemies, even if it won't change common gameplay very much. These are still intended to be weak enemies overall; if the main result is you pause for a few seconds to let the stacks disappear entirely between groups, that may be OK.

phew. im glad you guys are against PRR debuffs. this is exactly the biggest reason why I never liked those suggestions.

[redoubt]

This is the rogue update so I was just spit balling rogue numbers, TBH most assassins go with shadowdancer and splashing 6 monk on an acrobat isn't all that outlandish. As for the 30 dodge that was low balling it just like the 60 PRR is low for a light armour wearer if you're comparing to 200 for heavy. Remember that after this update, at full BAB heavy gives 64 PRR while light gives 26 so the gap should only be huge if you allow it to be.

As for the fort bypass it's mostly fine as is, maybe stop certain really rough combos lie TS+bypass+damage boost. The point of champions is to be something that makes you pay attention and to and liven up quests you've done hundreds of times, not be something you base builds around. If it was only a reduction then we'd all just either build our toons to never get critted like the old cap 20 days with heavy fort, or to whatever CR mobs are out there and can SA(~175ish now?) recently, or ignore it and maybe complain about balance. More complaints that bladeforged are OP again would just waste dev time on something that isn't needed in the first place because it's working as intended.

Edit: Your dodge/incorp also wont fall away so while you get hit a lot harder you'll still be missed just as much. That heavy wearing dude who got hit all the time will still get hit all the time just harder, so having more PRR makes sense here as it's more likely that PRR will be their only defence. Will have to check it out when it hits Lamannia but on paper it could work just fine.

Yes it is the Rogue pass update. But more than rogues wear light armor.

I'm not low balling light armor PRR. For example, my level 25 wizard wears light armor (and is proficient) and has a PRR of 59. (Armor plus sheltering item.) Sure, if you want to assume that everyone has 9 Divine past lives and 3 PDK past lives you could add 36 PRR to everyone, but how realistic is that and should it be where we set the bar? I think not.

I get that you were spit balling numbers. I do it often and I'm okay with that. But do you see where you are still pushing light armor wearers into two groups?
1. Those in shadow dancer
2. Those with 6 monk

On Fort Bypass, set the formula as follows:
Hard: CR + Quest level
Elite: CR + Quest level *2

Level 9 quest (first option for 100% fort)
Hard 12 + 9 = 21% reduction
Elite 12 +18 = 30% reduction

level 20 quest
hard 20 + 20 = 40% reduction
Elite 20 + 40 = 60% reduction

Level 25 quest
hard 60 + 25 = 85% reduction
elite 60 + 50 = 110% reduction

level 30 quest
hard 70 + 30 = 100% reduction
elite 70 + 60 = 130% reduction

yes, you can build for it, but there are only a few builds that reach the kinds of fort numbers needed to be immune. How many builds can reach 230% fort? I can think of 1 for sure, that is a pale master. Blade and warforged might also, but I've never tried. I don't think any other set ups can get there.

We are only discussing Temple of Elemental Evil for this. It could of course appear in the future, but this isn't something that's showing up in all quests throughout DDO. I think some players are thinking this is far more broad than it is, and it may have been a mistake for me to call it out in a way that draws extra attention to it. It's just a new ability being given to a few brand new monsters, which happens all the time.

I don't think it was a mistake. The communication is great and thank you for the clarification. I asked because of the earlier discussion about giving this ability to champions. I think during that discussion it was being discussed at around 30% reduction to the PRR number.

I think the plan for a stacking debuff is fine in limited amounts. I think making it 1% per stack instead of just 2 points per stack would be better.

[brzytki]

phew. im glad you guys are against PRR debuffs. this is exactly the biggest reason why I never liked those suggestions.

Lol Qhualor, you really should read all posts and not cherry-pick only what you think someone is saying...

[Wizza]

(1) Weak monsters can be accompanied by stronger monsters; the debuff is on the player character (not a buff on the monsters), so that one strong monster may still be dealing quite a bit more damage if this is getting stacked high.
(2) For comparison, we expect more dodgy or ranged characters to have fewer than 10 stacks here.
(3) This is not necessarily a bad scenario per se. I'm not sure what the goal you are looking for here; we aren't necessarily trying to make every encounter with 10 weak enemies vastly more life threatening. But it should make situations with 50 weak enemies much more dangerous. These are situations that do come up, though not for all players. That's fine.

1) Fair enough, I can see this point.
2) Not really, especially since "more dodgy" characters (Rogues?) usually have only a couple more points into Dodge compared to the max PRR characters we are talking about.
3) The goal that I'm looking for is probably the same as yours, where weak enemies becoming less threatening by weaking the high prr characters that we are able to make on live. I'll disagree with this not necessarily being a bad scenario but I'll agree that I will have to play with it to have clearer ideas.

This version seems like it punishes low PRR characters more. A potentially long-lasting large PRR debuff can't be shaken off and even one application can make the next hit massive. The small goal with this small change for some of the weaker monsters in Temple was to make wading dozens of enemies a bad idea. It was also an experiment to inject some gameplay into weak enemies, even if it won't change common gameplay very much. These are still intended to be weak enemies overall; if the main result is you pause for a few seconds to let the stacks disappear entirely between groups, that may be OK.

We kinda agree with the purpose of the system then, I wouldn't mind at all if the main result is that you actually HAVE to pause or the mobs start hitting hard. I just don't see how a -2 stacking PRR debuff is going to accomplish that, it seems way too low.

Whether or not the stacks all fade at once or don't even stack up (but instead only add duration) are options we can consider.

Good. As always, I'll test first on Lamannia then draw more accurate conclusions.

We'd like to see it played out on Lamannia before jumping to too many conclusions (the variety of ways to play DDO means that's a much better way to find out what happens than theorycrafting), and it's just one part of many other changes that are quite possibly more significant (saving throws, damage from monsters on H/E, dropping some HP, adding some Fortification to bosses which they entirely lacked in the first Lamannia build, etc.)

Seems alright and agreed.

phew. im glad you guys are against PRR debuffs. this is exactly the biggest reason why I never liked those suggestions.

You should actually read the thread and not random replies.

[Qhualor]

I'll admit to not reading every single post in the thread. What exactly am I missing here?

[brzytki]

I'll admit to not reading every single post in the thread. What exactly am I missing here?

Well, you don't need to read every single post, just the one you quoted would be nice. You quoted a dev's response to the poster who suggested making PRR debuff last longer by adding additional seconds to the debuff each time a stack is placed on a player. The PRR debuff idea was brought to this thread by devs and it will be in the next Lama patch, so the devs aren't against the PRR debuff idea.

[Qhualor]

Well, you don't need to read every single post, just the one you quoted would be nice. You quoted a dev's response to the poster who suggested making PRR debuff last longer by adding additional seconds to the debuff each time a stack is placed on a player. The PRR debuff idea was brought to this thread by devs and it will be in the next Lama patch, so the devs aren't against the PRR debuff idea.

I must have missed the dev post about a PRR debuff. I thought I have been reading all of them, but apparently not that one. im intentionally not spoiling TOEE because I want to be surprised when it comes out, but I cant help be curious about whats going on. so I usually only read the dev posts and I might respond with something.

ive seen people in the past suggest PRR debuffs and ive never liked that idea mainly because light/no armor characters suffer the most from it. when I saw Varg respond about a suggestion on PRR debuff I assumed incorrectly he was saying such a debuff would not happen and his reasons why were in line with my reasons. I suppose ill have to wait and see how this debuff plays out, but for the record im against it.

[Ayseifn]

Yes it is the Rogue pass update. But more than rogues wear light armor.

I'm not low balling light armor PRR. For example, my level 25 wizard wears light armor (and is proficient) and has a PRR of 59. (Armor plus sheltering item.) Sure, if you want to assume that everyone has 9 Divine past lives and 3 PDK past lives you could add 36 PRR to everyone, but how realistic is that and should it be where we set the bar? I think not.

Like I said, if you're using 60 PRR for light then that 200 for heavy is misleading. A cleric with only H. armour +30 sheltering item will be at 79(19 BAB) and will have a max dodge of 6 in shadow plate(2 base, 2 ship and 2 augment), that vs your wizard that can be in wraith form wont look so bad. To get 200 in heavy you really need to work for it, 64 base with 28 BAB, 30 item, 36 PLs, 10 feat, 25 fighter/paladin stance only gets you to 165, add 12 from bladeforged or 10 from necro set and 5 from MoD ring and you're at 180-182. Could add shields for Vanguards I guess but there's also nothing stopping your wizard from getting that Tor tower and masters touching it for similar gains.

I get that you were spit balling numbers. I do it often and I'm okay with that. But do you see where you are still pushing light armor wearers into two groups?
1. Those in shadow dancer
2. Those with 6 monk

Light/robe armour wearers are rangers, rogues, monks, sorcs and wizards, everyone else can get med or heavy. Rangers, sorcs and wizards can all range things so this debuff already has an easy counter for them available. Rogues I already covered and monks are in a similar boat to rogues.

On Fort Bypass, set the formula as follows:
Hard: CR + Quest level
Elite: CR + Quest level *2

Level 9 quest (first option for 100% fort)
Hard 12 + 9 = 21% reduction
Elite 12 +18 = 30% reduction

level 20 quest
hard 20 + 20 = 40% reduction
Elite 20 + 40 = 60% reduction

Level 25 quest
hard 60 + 25 = 85% reduction
elite 60 + 50 = 110% reduction

level 30 quest
hard 70 + 30 = 100% reduction
elite 70 + 60 = 130% reduction

yes, you can build for it, but there are only a few builds that reach the kinds of fort numbers needed to be immune. How many builds can reach 230% fort? I can think of 1 for sure, that is a pale master. Blade and warforged might also, but I've never tried. I don't think any other set ups can get there.

Bladeforged/warforged can hit 230 without too much hassle, BF are already really strong and this would just make them stronger for no reason. Champs are meant to be circumvented with smarts not gear, quest knowledge or PLs to help even out the play experience between players.

I do get that it affects low PRR/HP toons more than high PRR/HP ones, heavy armour on live right now I'd put in the over performing category. Rogues in light or robes on Lamannia are performing fine though, it's just the toons that haven't seen their passes yet that might be falling behind.

[davmuzl]

I did both quests on eh and they didn't seem really hard. Instead they looked just really large and empty (reminded me a little of running around in the kings forest for the first time), I hope there will be a lot of optionals with nice xp and loot and maybe also some interesting enemies (maybe some interesting boss mechanics for those like one with a big hammer and he charges an attack that makes his weapon glow and then slam it to the ground with high AoE damage).

The endfight of the first part was a little strange because it took me forever to kill all the elementals and then the rest was over after a few seconds.

The barriers before the nodes that can be used to enter the boss area should either be like doors, so the mouse changes when targeting the barrier or have soem kind of lever/rune/button next to it (the first time I just turned back because I thought I'd have to do something else first).

Is it necessary to find all the elemental nodes before there is a way to enter the boss area? I was only able to get in there once I found all of them and they were labeled optional.

I killed a red named giant called "something the adamant" iirc and after finishing the quest I still had the optional so it looks like it didn't complete.

I really liked the bossfight, but I think champions should be banned from it and I hope the area gets a map.

That's everything that comes to mind after my first casual run through this.

[General_Gronker]

like one with a big hammer and he charges an attack that makes his weapon glow and then slam it to the ground with high AoE damage

Pretty sure what you're looking for there is a different game. This is DDO. It's based Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition/3.5. Know what one of the defining features of 3E is? Bad guys are built on and follow the same rules as PCs. Stop encouraging them to move even further away from that towards some WoW/Neverwinter ****.

[General_Gronker]

We definitely heard this from a lot of you yesterday - In Part One, we're adding an additional set on the west side of Dungeon Level 2, and another just before the end fight.

Eh, the temple is supposed to be large enough with a sparse enough population that is you clear sections out, you should be able to camp for a night. A better solution than adding fixed shrines would be to have shrines appear once you've thoroughly cleared an area or section of the dungeon. Kinda sorta like how there are shrines that pop up in between waves in Devil Assault.

I dunno if I added it here, but there is a severe lack of demons and undead in this quest. I know it is not finished, but I would strongly urge adding patrols of undead with demons in all the nodes and in level 3, 4, and the last fight of part 1.

You're talking about random encounters. For the record, this is what should appear as random encounters (checked every 10 minutes):
Dungeon Level 1
1d100 Result
01-02 1d6 + 6 brigands, with a 2nd level fighter leader. Each has 1d6 gp, 3d6 gp for leader.
03-05 1d4 + 1 gnolls, no treasure
06-07 1d4 + 1 ghouls.Each may (50%) have 2-12 gp, and might (10%) have a bloodstone (base value 50 gp).
08 In 10' corridor, 1 gelatinous cube with normal treasure; otherwise, 1 gray ooze, no treasure.
09 1 ogre with indigestion, looking for trouble; no treasure.
10 Patrol: 6 men-at-arms plus 1 leader (L3 fighter). May be encountered once only
11-99 No encounter
00 Zuggtmoy (if free)

Dungeon Level 2
1d100 Result
01 8 bandits, 2 L1 fighters, and 1 L4 leader, returning to areas 240-244; with 1-4 prisoners, and 100-400 (d100 x 4) gp
02-04 4-6 bugbears, no treasure
05 1 carrion crawler, no treasure
06 1 ochre jelly, no treasure.
07-09 2-4 ogres, no treasure
10 1-2 trolls, no treasure
11-99 No encounter
00 Zuggtmoy (if free)

Dungeon Level 3
1d100 Result
01-03 1 black pudding
04 1-2 ettins
05 5-8 gargoyles
06-07 2-3 hill giants
08-09 5-8 ogres
10-12 2-3 trolls
13-95 No encounter
96-98 Zuggtmoy alone (if free)
99-00 Zuggtmoy (if free) with others (there's a sub-table for the others)

Dungeon Level 4
1d100 Result
01-02 1 black pudding
03 Smigmal and Falrinth (with Kriitch,a quasit familiar)
04-05 1 ettin
06-07 1-2 trolls
08-10 3-6 gargoyles
11-12 1-2 hill giants
13-16 1-4 ogres, 2-5 bugbears They are 50% likely to panic and run if challenged
17 Zuggtmoy alone (if able to wander this area; otherwise No Encounter)
18 Zuggtmoy with one of the above groups (roll again, using 2d8 if able to wander this area; otherwise No Encounter)
19-00 No encounter

Nodes
1d100 Result
01 Ascomid
02 Basidirond
03-04 Grey ooze
05-06 Ochre jelly
07 Phycomid
08-10 Pudding (type by node)
11 Ustilagor
12 Zygom
13 Wandering human (there is a sub-table for this)
14-20 Node resident
21-00 No encounter

You'll notice a profound lack of random undead and demons.

So no, such patrols shouldn't be added.

I still hope for

You're not really familiar with the Temple, are you?

Weak monsters are often highly ineffective against player characters, even when massed to very high numbers.)

They're supposed to be. They're mooks, cannon fodder. They serve only to slow the group down a bit, not provide a significant threat. If you want them to provide a significant threat, you misunderstand their purpose, and need to use different monsters.

Also, bear traps are stupid. They were stupid when they were introduced, and even more stupid when they appeared inside of places all over the place. They were a poor idea, and should not be added to any new content. Period.

Second Also:

**** it, add Hommlet and Nulb!!!