DEX-based assassin - Is it worth?

[Ikeas]

Hi everyone.

With the revamp of the rogue trees I'm removing the dust of some of my old (pre U19) rogue builds. Taking a look on the assassin, I realized is not possible to reach a a high (epic worth) assassinate DC on a STR or DEX build. I don't have the harper tree (yet), and I'm not buying it in a long time (I have other priorities).

So... how much would be the assassin DPS without the instakill? Is it worth to go DEX based, and dump entirely the instakill enhancement?

According to my numbers, I can still reach an assassinate DC of 57 on a pure DEX build... not enough for EEs and higher EHs big bad guys, but maybe yes for casters...

Thoughts?

[Sunnie]

When I played an assassin a while back (just before champions iirc), most of my dps came from the 30d6 sneak attack dice I had once I hit 20 and leveled up Shadowdancer. I was int-based (no harper either), and Assassinate was definitely useful and fun in some situations, but it added little if anything to overall damage output. It was more of a tool to take out a caster before sapping the second enemy, bluffing the third, and swinging away at them. In my experience, Sneak Attack is where it's at for TWFing rogues, as most assassins are. Going Dex based is probably a net gain in dps.

[Saekee]

If you are going Dex, you might want to add 6 monk levels as well. You lose the buff to knife specialization (unless you want to dual wield EMGs (you can remain centered with them) but you gain 4 Dex in GMoF.
Even without Harper, the build in my sig works well--it loses the improved deception and extended displacements but offsets it with AP spent in other ways (sneak attack die etc.). You can also epic reincarnate into the bow version which will be very strong with the mechanic changes.

[Linvak]

When I played an assassin a while back (just before champions iirc), most of my dps came from the 30d6 sneak attack dice I had once I hit 20 and leveled up Shadowdancer. I was int-based (no harper either), and Assassinate was definitely useful and fun in some situations, but it added little if anything to overall damage output. It was more of a tool to take out a caster before sapping the second enemy, bluffing the third, and swinging away at them. In my experience, Sneak Attack is where it's at for TWFing rogues, as most assassins are. Going Dex based is probably a net gain in dps.

I don't really see where it's a net gain in dps, but I won't say that being dex based is useless. But due to the harper tree, and more feat options, INT based doesn't hurt. You get the same amount of SA haha. Imo, if you want to be dex based, splashing is a nice compliment. Coup de Grace works with practically no charisma needed.

But you have to factor in the dps of assassinate itself. If mobs have multiple thousands of health, you can add that dmg to your output when assassinated. Now add 1 more on top of that.

In the end, the SA dmg is still great, if you wish to stay pure for full SA bonus as dex based, as long as you're doing traps and staying alive, you're immensely useful.

[CThruTheEgo]

Go int based and just use dex to damage. That's what I did before harper. There's not much point in playing an assassin if you aren't going to use its core feature. You'd be better off playing a completely different class if all you want is dps. Most of your dps comes from sneak attack damage anyway, so using dex for damage, even if it's lower, is still a viable option.

I have to say though, harper is really cheap for what it offers, and not just for assassins. You can easily get the TP needed just from favor by leveling up a character. You could start out int based, level up, then buy harper when you have enough and use int for to hit and damage.

[Ikeas]

Yet another twist... how would a SWF assassin work?

[CThruTheEgo]

Yet another twist... how would a SWF assassin work?

Sneak attack damage procs on each hit, which means both hands if TWF. A pure assassin gets about 29d6+ sneak attack damage, per hand. TWF has the equivalent of 1.8 attacks from 80% offhand attacks. SWF has the equivalent of 1.3 attacks from 30% attack speed increase. SWF also gets 1.5 damage mod, but that is not enough to make up for the lost damage from offhand sneak attacks.

[Sunnie]

I don't really see where it's a net gain in dps

The 2nd core ability, dex to damage with daggers, kukris, and finessable weapons if you have the feat.

[CThruTheEgo]

The 2nd core ability, dex to damage with daggers, kukris, and finessable weapons if you have the feat.

Dex based is higher dps only if you are not using assassinate enough. Assassinate adds a huge amount of damage output because you can drop a mob with thousands of hp instantly. You always want to keep assassinate on cooldown but you also want to be meleeing while it is on cooldown. That requires controlling agro. Assinate one target, melee a mob that someone else is attacking so you don't pull agro, choose your next target while your doing that, always pick one with full hp or the highest threat (preferably both), then as assassinate is coming off cooldown you leave the mob you're meleeing whether it's dead or not, get into position, drop into sneak and assassinate it when assassinate comes off cooldown. If you do this consistently, you are contributing a great deal to the group and doing a lot of dps.

[Sunnie]

Dex based is higher dps only if you are not using assassinate enough. Assassinate adds a huge amount of damage output because you can drop a mob with thousands of hp instantly. You always want to keep assassinate on cooldown but you also want to be meleeing while it is on cooldown. That requires controlling agro. Assinate one target, melee a mob that someone else is attacking so you don't pull agro, choose your next target while your doing that, always pick one with full hp or the highest threat (preferably both), then as assassinate is coming off cooldown you leave the mob you're meleeing whether it's dead or not, get into position, drop into sneak and assassinate it when assassinate comes off cooldown. If you do this consistently, you are contributing a great deal to the group and doing a lot of dps.

As someone who actually liked to use the ability I must still say that it was cumbersome. The cooldown was overly long, and in groups it added very little to overall damage output. In theory it sounds very good, but it's too slow to work the way you describe it. Casters will attempt to nuke main targets, barbarians, fighters and paladins will jump over the small fry to stun the enemy casters and champions (provided they haven't been nuked by the time they reach them), bards... will be bards. You can get one Assassination off, but by the time it comes off CD, everything else is dead due to people hitting it in the face. You hardly ever get 2 uses of assassinate in one fight, things simply die too fast. If you start trying to take your time and select a good target on top of that, you'll be lucky to ever hit anything in a quest.

I found that my damage output (mainly measured in number of kills relative to total amount) noticeably increased once I (and this applies to groups only, mind, not soloing) started to assassinate the first thing I was in range of, and then swung away at whatever monster had aggro on another player. When that drops, move on to the next, and when that one drops, only you and your teammates are left standing.

Backing off in melee to get in another assassinate sounds nice on paper. I tried it as well. But 4 times out of 5 when sneaking in melee you'll get hit by a random attack, some glancing blow, a stray arrow, or you'll step on a twig and alert every monster in the vicinity to your presence over the clamor of battle. It will work once in a while, but it's not consistent enough to be useful, and as I said above: Things die too fast.

[CThruTheEgo]

As someone who actually liked to use the ability I must still say that it was cumbersome. The cooldown was overly long, and in groups it added very little to overall damage output. In theory it sounds very good, but it's too slow to work the way you describe it. Casters will attempt to nuke main targets, barbarians, fighters and paladins will jump over the small fry to stun the enemy casters and champions (provided they haven't been nuked by the time they reach them), bards... will be bards. You can get one Assassination off, but by the time it comes off CD, everything else is dead due to people hitting it in the face. You hardly ever get 2 uses of assassinate in one fight, things simply die too fast. If you start trying to take your time and select a good target on top of that, you'll be lucky to ever hit anything in a quest.

I found that my damage output (mainly measured in number of kills relative to total amount) noticeably increased once I (and this applies to groups only, mind, not soloing) started to assassinate the first thing I was in range of, and then swung away at whatever monster had aggro on another player. When that drops, move on to the next, and when that one drops, only you and your teammates are left standing.

Backing off in melee to get in another assassinate sounds nice on paper. I tried it as well. But 4 times out of 5 when sneaking in melee you'll get hit by a random attack, some glancing blow, a stray arrow, or you'll step on a twig and alert every monster in the vicinity to your presence over the clamor of battle. It will work once in a while, but it's not consistent enough to be useful, and as I said above: Things die too fast.

What you are describing is precisely what makes the assassin playstyle one of the more difficult playstyles to master, which is why assassins are generally considered an advanced build. You do have to be aware of everything you're saying and if you can pull it off successfully, it is very effective.

Knowledge of the quest will enable you to anticipate what you can expect at every moment. You know how many and what type of mobs will be in the next fight; where the fight will occur and how you can take advantage of the environment to either control mobs or move quickly to reach your target; when you can leave one fight while your group finishes off the final mob or two so you can start heading to the next fight to open it up with an assassinate.

Knowledge of mob movements and attacks will help you avoid all the things you mentioned that can knock you out of sneak mode. You have to know which melees use cleave attacks or get glancing blows, when they use them in their attack sequence, and how to avoid them. You need to be aware of archers and avoid crossing their line of fire.

Knowledge of mob behavior is essential to positioning yourself for an assassinate. Archers, for example, stand in one spot shooting for a certain period of time, then move a short distance and start firing again. Where they move depends on what they are shooting at and if their agro changes. If their target is close, they will move away from them. If their target is far away, they will move closer or diagonally toward the target. If their agro changes, they will move to a certain distance from their new target. So if an archer is your next target for an assassinate, how long has it been standing in that spot and where will it be when your ready to assassinate it? Taking these factors into consideration allows you to end up in the right place at the right time and they never see it coming. All mobs follow specific patterns like this. Knowing them allows you to do a much better job of killing them.

The time you spend selecting a target should be while you are meleeing with the rest of the group. You definitely do not want to be sitting around doing nothing but evaluating the situation. That evaluation has to be done on the fly. Which mob is presenting the biggest threat at the moment? If there's no serious threat, which mob has full hp, and which ones have higher hp than the others? Are there two standing near each other that you can double assassinate? Considering these factors allows you to get the most value out of each assassination and maximizes your contribution to the group.

Knowledge of your other party members allows you to adapt to them. If the wizard in your party is constantly fingering every enemy caster you go for at the start of a fight, stop going for the casters first. If the melee is grabbing agro of a half dozen mobs at once, give them a second to get situated around him and get their cleave attacks over with, then move in for a double assassinate. If you pug, each group will be different. Being able to adapt to them and take advantage of the opportunities they offer you will allow you to maximize your effectiveness within that particular group.

In between assassinates, you should be meleeing while considering all of these factors to plan your next assassinate.

Constantly being aware of and taking into consideration all of the above is what is required to play an assassin to its fullest potential. You need to be able to do all of this quickly, adapt to the situation, and act accordingly. This is not a playstyle that is only theory or exists only on paper. I do it and I know many others who do too. It is most definitely possible to play this way and is very effective when done right, but it is not a playstyle for everyone. This playstyle is unique to an assassin and is really their defining feature. Being able to do all of these things on other classes/builds is certainly useful for them, but it's not essential for them like it is for assassins. Another way to say it is there is much less margin for error on an assassin than on other builds. If you can't or don't do these things on an assassin, then you will be more of a burden to the group than a help. This is not a playstyle for everyone. Some find it too hectic. Some say it's not effective enough because it does require so much to do effectively. But for those who enjoy it and can pull it off successfully, it is quite a deadly contributor to the group.

[Sunnie]

*This is really too long to put in one quote*

But I think it very nicely shows the differences in the approaches we found to work. Getting Assassinate to be a consistent and regular addition to dps output requires the player to put in a lot of work and skill when they play the game. If you can get it to work, kudos. I found it to be too much effort for the gain, and I think it's safe to say that both approaches would work very well.

I played as an int-based rogue with dex-to-damage, and I can say that the average of 150 SA damage per hit in epic levels is nothing to sneeze at. With a moderate investment in fortification bypass you'll consistently get that damage against absolutely everything, including red and purple named undead. Add wracking strike and no construct is safe from you either.

As a dex-based rogue with dex-to-damage you'll be adding even more damage to it. In the end it boils down to varieties of playing styles.

[CThruTheEgo]

But I think it very nicely shows the differences in the approaches we found to work. Getting Assassinate to be a consistent and regular addition to dps output requires the player to put in a lot of work and skill when they play the game. If you can get it to work, kudos. I found it to be too much effort for the gain, and I think it's safe to say that both approaches would work very well.

I played as an int-based rogue with dex-to-damage, and I can say that the average of 150 SA damage per hit in epic levels is nothing to sneeze at. With a moderate investment in fortification bypass you'll consistently get that damage against absolutely everything, including red and purple named undead. Add wracking strike and no construct is safe from you either.

As a dex-based rogue with dex-to-damage you'll be adding even more damage to it. In the end it boils down to varieties of playing styles.

Well that was my original point in this thread. What I described above is what is unique about playing an assassin. Assassinate is the only thing in the entire game that actually requires you to be in sneak mode, effectively forcing you to follow the playstyle I described if you want to do it well. If you don't intend to assassinate, you can't melee while in sneak, so there's no point to sneaking if you're in a group, but then the build plays just like every other melee except with far weaker defenses. So if you're just building for dps, then you're better off with a completely different build. The sneak attack damage is a lot, but it does not compare to most other melees, especially not any of the ones that have already been revamped. Just my 2cp.

And if you want to play a dps rogue, get harper and have the best of both worlds – dps and assassinate. Thanks to know the angles and int to damage, an int based rogue with harper will do a lot more dps than even a fully dex based rogue. Harper is really cheap for what it offers and anyone who is serious about playing an assassin (i.e. not just going for a past life) should get it.

[Grace_ana]

Go int based and just use dex to damage. That's what I did before harper. There's not much point in playing an assassin if you aren't going to use its core feature. You'd be better off playing a completely different class if all you want is dps. Most of your dps comes from sneak attack damage anyway, so using dex for damage, even if it's lower, is still a viable option.

I have to say though, harper is really cheap for what it offers, and not just for assassins. You can easily get the TP needed just from favor by leveling up a character. You could start out int based, level up, then buy harper when you have enough and use int for to hit and damage.

All of this. I also played my assassin int-based with dex to damage before harper. It works fine - not as well as with harper, but you can still lead kill counts and still land assassinates. Plus, some of those super-high DC traps in EE (I think one of them is around 103?) really need the int investment. But do pick up the harper tree when you can.