DEX-based assassin - Is it worth?

[Ikeas]

Hi everyone.

With the revamp of the rogue trees I'm removing the dust of some of my old (pre U19) rogue builds. Taking a look on the assassin, I realized is not possible to reach a a high (epic worth) assassinate DC on a STR or DEX build. I don't have the harper tree (yet), and I'm not buying it in a long time (I have other priorities).

So... how much would be the assassin DPS without the instakill? Is it worth to go DEX based, and dump entirely the instakill enhancement?

According to my numbers, I can still reach an assassinate DC of 57 on a pure DEX build... not enough for EEs and higher EHs big bad guys, but maybe yes for casters...

Thoughts?

[Sunnie]

When I played an assassin a while back (just before champions iirc), most of my dps came from the 30d6 sneak attack dice I had once I hit 20 and leveled up Shadowdancer. I was int-based (no harper either), and Assassinate was definitely useful and fun in some situations, but it added little if anything to overall damage output. It was more of a tool to take out a caster before sapping the second enemy, bluffing the third, and swinging away at them. In my experience, Sneak Attack is where it's at for TWFing rogues, as most assassins are. Going Dex based is probably a net gain in dps.

[Saekee]

If you are going Dex, you might want to add 6 monk levels as well. You lose the buff to knife specialization (unless you want to dual wield EMGs (you can remain centered with them) but you gain 4 Dex in GMoF.
Even without Harper, the build in my sig works well--it loses the improved deception and extended displacements but offsets it with AP spent in other ways (sneak attack die etc.). You can also epic reincarnate into the bow version which will be very strong with the mechanic changes.

[Linvak]

When I played an assassin a while back (just before champions iirc), most of my dps came from the 30d6 sneak attack dice I had once I hit 20 and leveled up Shadowdancer. I was int-based (no harper either), and Assassinate was definitely useful and fun in some situations, but it added little if anything to overall damage output. It was more of a tool to take out a caster before sapping the second enemy, bluffing the third, and swinging away at them. In my experience, Sneak Attack is where it's at for TWFing rogues, as most assassins are. Going Dex based is probably a net gain in dps.

I don't really see where it's a net gain in dps, but I won't say that being dex based is useless. But due to the harper tree, and more feat options, INT based doesn't hurt. You get the same amount of SA haha. Imo, if you want to be dex based, splashing is a nice compliment. Coup de Grace works with practically no charisma needed.

But you have to factor in the dps of assassinate itself. If mobs have multiple thousands of health, you can add that dmg to your output when assassinated. Now add 1 more on top of that.

In the end, the SA dmg is still great, if you wish to stay pure for full SA bonus as dex based, as long as you're doing traps and staying alive, you're immensely useful.

[CThruTheEgo]

Go int based and just use dex to damage. That's what I did before harper. There's not much point in playing an assassin if you aren't going to use its core feature. You'd be better off playing a completely different class if all you want is dps. Most of your dps comes from sneak attack damage anyway, so using dex for damage, even if it's lower, is still a viable option.

I have to say though, harper is really cheap for what it offers, and not just for assassins. You can easily get the TP needed just from favor by leveling up a character. You could start out int based, level up, then buy harper when you have enough and use int for to hit and damage.

[Ikeas]

Yet another twist... how would a SWF assassin work?

[CThruTheEgo]

Yet another twist... how would a SWF assassin work?

Sneak attack damage procs on each hit, which means both hands if TWF. A pure assassin gets about 29d6+ sneak attack damage, per hand. TWF has the equivalent of 1.8 attacks from 80% offhand attacks. SWF has the equivalent of 1.3 attacks from 30% attack speed increase. SWF also gets 1.5 damage mod, but that is not enough to make up for the lost damage from offhand sneak attacks.

[Grace_ana]

Go int based and just use dex to damage. That's what I did before harper. There's not much point in playing an assassin if you aren't going to use its core feature. You'd be better off playing a completely different class if all you want is dps. Most of your dps comes from sneak attack damage anyway, so using dex for damage, even if it's lower, is still a viable option.

I have to say though, harper is really cheap for what it offers, and not just for assassins. You can easily get the TP needed just from favor by leveling up a character. You could start out int based, level up, then buy harper when you have enough and use int for to hit and damage.

All of this. I also played my assassin int-based with dex to damage before harper. It works fine - not as well as with harper, but you can still lead kill counts and still land assassinates. Plus, some of those super-high DC traps in EE (I think one of them is around 103?) really need the int investment. But do pick up the harper tree when you can.

[Sunnie]

I don't really see where it's a net gain in dps

The 2nd core ability, dex to damage with daggers, kukris, and finessable weapons if you have the feat.

[CThruTheEgo]

The 2nd core ability, dex to damage with daggers, kukris, and finessable weapons if you have the feat.

Dex based is higher dps only if you are not using assassinate enough. Assassinate adds a huge amount of damage output because you can drop a mob with thousands of hp instantly. You always want to keep assassinate on cooldown but you also want to be meleeing while it is on cooldown. That requires controlling agro. Assinate one target, melee a mob that someone else is attacking so you don't pull agro, choose your next target while your doing that, always pick one with full hp or the highest threat (preferably both), then as assassinate is coming off cooldown you leave the mob you're meleeing whether it's dead or not, get into position, drop into sneak and assassinate it when assassinate comes off cooldown. If you do this consistently, you are contributing a great deal to the group and doing a lot of dps.

[Sunnie]

Dex based is higher dps only if you are not using assassinate enough. Assassinate adds a huge amount of damage output because you can drop a mob with thousands of hp instantly. You always want to keep assassinate on cooldown but you also want to be meleeing while it is on cooldown. That requires controlling agro. Assinate one target, melee a mob that someone else is attacking so you don't pull agro, choose your next target while your doing that, always pick one with full hp or the highest threat (preferably both), then as assassinate is coming off cooldown you leave the mob you're meleeing whether it's dead or not, get into position, drop into sneak and assassinate it when assassinate comes off cooldown. If you do this consistently, you are contributing a great deal to the group and doing a lot of dps.

As someone who actually liked to use the ability I must still say that it was cumbersome. The cooldown was overly long, and in groups it added very little to overall damage output. In theory it sounds very good, but it's too slow to work the way you describe it. Casters will attempt to nuke main targets, barbarians, fighters and paladins will jump over the small fry to stun the enemy casters and champions (provided they haven't been nuked by the time they reach them), bards... will be bards. You can get one Assassination off, but by the time it comes off CD, everything else is dead due to people hitting it in the face. You hardly ever get 2 uses of assassinate in one fight, things simply die too fast. If you start trying to take your time and select a good target on top of that, you'll be lucky to ever hit anything in a quest.

I found that my damage output (mainly measured in number of kills relative to total amount) noticeably increased once I (and this applies to groups only, mind, not soloing) started to assassinate the first thing I was in range of, and then swung away at whatever monster had aggro on another player. When that drops, move on to the next, and when that one drops, only you and your teammates are left standing.

Backing off in melee to get in another assassinate sounds nice on paper. I tried it as well. But 4 times out of 5 when sneaking in melee you'll get hit by a random attack, some glancing blow, a stray arrow, or you'll step on a twig and alert every monster in the vicinity to your presence over the clamor of battle. It will work once in a while, but it's not consistent enough to be useful, and as I said above: Things die too fast.