Rogue - Mechanic (and Traps) Proposed Changes

[flagged]

Sev, with this you just made repeteater builds the best ranged dps.
You basically made all builds that use a repeteater and slaying shot able to "overperform"

I dont even need to test on lama to say this will happen as i wrote here.
Maybe limit slaying shot to 2 bolts?
Since this way you are allowing repeteater builds to fire 4/6 bolts with slaying shot salvo, that is imo pretty game breaking considering we think that a furyshot is op..

nope.

[flagged]

We are well aware. I am not saying it will be easy but I think personally I'd rather have crossbow animations work properly and deal with the headaches of balance from there than be unwilling to fix the basic gameplay and animations because we may have to go back and tune repeaters and how they interact with Slaying Shot.

As an aside, we didn't change repeaters to modify the entire volley when a player activates an attack; that's how the code works currently so we'd be reducing the effectiveness if we changed it.

Sev~

You are totally right here.

I can currently time my shots to proc on all three Sev, (took lots of practice!), and I can tell you from in-game experience that it is not "game breaking" or even noticeable to the rest of the team. Mostly I pull my weight but land towards the bottom of the rankings. I run with FoTW and Slayer shots and still it works best on non-boss, non-champion, mobs.

So what I'm saying is this will be good fun for other mechanics who haven't mastered the timing and won't come near to our Moncher and chucker overlords!

[flagged]

Sev just move Great Xbow to core 12 and leave Longbow at 18... one of them has great named options and the other has ZERO named options...

BTW shortbow would be much more apropos for a rogue, have you considered giving shortbow some sort buff in mechanic? A plus [W] for example?

Any thoughts on the popular run of sniper ideas posted by several players on the last couple pages? Seems like there's lots of traction for putting in some Sinper/tactical incentives even if they are just 3 or 4 new enhancements, that would allow for a playstyle DDO simply does not have?

Sev, just leave it at 18. Moving it would undercut the rogues going forward after the pass while so much has been done to make them viable as pure or near pure classes.

I understand Meta-gamers see some great synergy by moving it to 12 but it would cause a unhealty shift and lead to nerf-rage that could hurt or even reverse the new benefits to rogues while the Meta-gamers would just move on to the next Fotm after they prompt a nerfing/gimp.

[Delacroix21]

Just finished EE trackers trap solo in 25 min 15secs, on a pure arty in master blitz. Overall I am very impressed by the damage from the ranged power (I have 51 base), as I was not expecting a smooth run.


I attempted it two other times in shiradi and fury and gave up as there was a preety substantial dps difference.


But I can say with the ranged power and these 130 attacks/min sev is talking about will be a very viable dps!


On a side note I'm not impressed with the runearm, it adds damage but not much. Also there is a hiccup after activating endless fuseilade, so any chance that will be removed as well?

[btolson]

~ Moving the critical bonuses from 18 to 12 opens up a Mechanic build with both 10K Stars and Manyshot. I don't think we want to do that.

Split the boni by weapon type: leave bow and thrown in core 18, along with an additional +1 greatbow multiplier, and place the remaining crossbow/repeater boni into core 12. Neither of those abilities work with xbows.

Or, further split the crit boni (e.g, +threat into tier5, and +multiplier into core 12).

I still feel that packaging all those boni into a single enhancement is a bit much, and that they should be better distributed.

[nat_1]

Sev, just leave it at 18. Moving it would undercut the rogues going forward after the pass while so much has been done to make them viable as pure or near pure classes.

There is no logic in this. If an ability available at 18 is now available at 12 the build is still viable as a pure class. Pure Bard and Pure Paladin are totes amazeballs. Also, because their abilities are available early they are good for splashing. All that is being asked for is consistency.

I understand Meta-gamers see some great synergy by moving it to 12 but it would cause a unhealty shift and lead to nerf-rage that could hurt or even reverse the new benefits to rogues while the Meta-gamers would just move on to the next Fotm after they prompt a nerfing/gimp.

"Unhealty shift" has begun. The previous passes added power staying pure and synergy when multi-classing. All that is being asked is for is consistency.

Swash is too good and Holy Sword is too good. There I said it. But they're the new normal. Make Expert Builder too good as well and available at a comparable level. All that is being asked is for is consistency.

[nibel]

~ Moving the critical bonuses from 18 to 12 opens up a Mechanic build with both 10K Stars and Manyshot. I don't think we want to do that.

Move the crossbow bonus to 12, and keep the bow/thrower bonus at 18 (with another GXB boost there). Issue averted.

~ Players want the possibility of a Great Crossbow build and have concerns that non-repeating crossbows won't hit hard enough.

The major problem with great xbow is that all effects nowadays are either hit-based or proc-based, thus the DPS people will value attack speed more than anything in the game. If you attack faster, you have more chances for that killer proc effect to happen, and each of your fast hits have the additional effects on it (like "flaming"). Great Crossbow is inherently slower than repeating crossbow (by design), thus is undervalued.

THF got fixed on that system because of glancing blows and the proxy-buffing of Cleave attacks by creating content with larger mob density since MotU. Before that, TWF was king for exactly the same reasons.

So, IMO, "fixing" GXB to be a desirable ranged weapon requires a much larger system update than I believe we can reasonably get in the time frame before U25 launch. Just for reference, as a starting point, I think GXB should have all proc effects with double value, and all "on hit" effects also raised at least by 50% damage. But then, I digress...

~ Players think Wrack Construct is weak and could use more of a boost.

It is also the same problem with enhancements that boost Turn Undead: In quests with none of this enemy kind, they are literally useless.

I like Wrack Construct. The damage is not exceptional, but is not too weak either. The problem it that you rarely fight more than a few constructs in each quest. Some like Shola-Fan have a room full of Iron golems, and no more golems the whole quest. The only place that you actually fight more constructs than anything else is on Cannith quests.

As a passive bonus, they might be more desirable. Something like "Passive: when you hit a construct you deal an extra 1d6/2d6/3d6 rust damage. Active: The construct hit by this attack loses its immunity to sneak attack for 6/9/12 seconds. You still have to bypass its fortification before you can deal sneak attack damage (Cooldown 15 seconds)"

~ Players think longer range for Point Blank Shot and sneak attack fits the sniper theme very well.

It fits the ranged rogue theme as a whole. You are still a rogue, you want to deal sneak attack damage. Deepwood Stalker is a tree that gives some minor sneak damage, and gets extra range for that. The ranged rogue tree should also provide this bonus. I would even dare say the same capstone (infinite PBS range) instead of Hip Flask.

[Unsmitten]

Sev, just leave it at 18. Moving it would undercut the rogues going forward after the pass while so much has been done to make them viable as pure or near pure classes.

Your perception is your reality, this seems to be just making pure rogues viable. Which they are doing, but with the current plans, they will kill multi-classing for mechanics. Assassin is already a pure rogue tree, Thief-acrobat can be either pure or multi. Mechanic should follow the theme that it has, pure being focused towards great crossbows and multi for great synergy.

I understand Meta-gamers see some great synergy by moving it to 12 but it would cause a unhealty shift and lead to nerf-rage that could hurt or even reverse the new benefits to rogues while the Meta-gamers would just move on to the next Fotm after they prompt a nerfing/gimp.

Again, your perception that it will cause an unhealthy shift is simply one side, Swashbuckling(3) and Holy Sword(14) have already forced that shift. How does making the same bonus require 4 or 15 more levels, over comparably equal equate an unhealthy shift?

I see it as the polar opposite of how you do, that is hurting rogue more by not moving it.

For me, if they released mechanic keeping the crit profiles in core 18, I would just meta 15 paladin 5 rogue, but I don't want that. Doing that would make the work boosting rogue even more ignored. This is why I suggest the crit profile boost move to t5 or core 12 instead of 18.

[flagged]

The reality is just that reality. I have watched the game and the meta-gamers make FoTM builds here in reality.

The great majority of people calling for the move to 12 from 18 just did the math, they want to run a master builder on endless fulsilade, they want to run master builder with Sniper shot, they want to run master builder with unfettered Slaying arrows, and the list goes on.

I understand this, it would be fun and amazeballs, but it's short sighted and it would not last. As soon as all the uber builds that we have all been banging out on paper since this thread was published went live it would be doomed. Meta-gamers and the FoTM folks would have fun for a few weeks while the community raged about the OP nature (loudly) until the Developers would have to walk it back in the midst of all the future work they will be involved in at that point. So it will have to be a quick and dirty walk back and it will take Mechanics back to a subpar level. The Meta-gamers and FoTM players will move on to the next thing and those of us who always play Mechanics will be stuck with a shortened stick, instead of the excellent one we on the cusp of getting with Sev's proposed changes. That will be short lived golden period followed by suckage.

Honestly, just reading the acrobatics some posters have gone through to justify moving it to lev 12 without pointing out all the insane **** we all know it would allow has been very humorous and at times disheartening.

[flagged]

And taking Master builder out of the cores and putting it in Tiers? how do people post that with a straight face? I mean come on now, we are talking about just 5 levels of Mechanic for what should be a lev 18 reward. But hey I understand, I did the math, you could make some serious game breakers with it if it was in tiers as opposed to core levels, But as I pointed out it would be short lived and warped.

[Failedlegend]

@flagged: You do realize that multi-classing is not a crime right...its actually a huge draw to the game both onli e a d pop. Coming up with interest I g and flavorful builds is NOT a bad thing.

[flagged]

@flagged: You do realize that multi-classing is not a crime right...its actually a huge draw to the game both onli e a d pop. Coming up with interest I g and flavorful builds is NOT a bad thing.

Oh absolutely fail, no question about it, a charm of the game and of PNP D&D. But you must realize that the interesting and flavorful have to be balanced by to undercutting the process with out-sized returns I'm sure.

Our players are tremendously clever and will find many unforeseen was of combining things and that's great! But it's very important to head off things that would lead to a obvious inbalance and game-breaking from the moment of introduction, moving Master builder to lev 12 is one of those things. And the many obvious ways having it moved to lev 12 could be leveraged for out-sized results is obviously why some (not all ) players are desperately trying to convince the developers to do so.

And there is no question that with master builder remaining a core lv 18 ability that many many other fantastic build ideas will be created and used with these new passes. In fact keeping Master builder where it belongs at lv18 core will help stimulate the creation of all those fantastic builds, because a Obvious and overpowered option like Master builder at lev 12 wont be there to warp the field, and stifle any other development of builds, that would be pointless in the face of what Master builder at lv12 would create.

[Delacroix21]

Ok just soled EE trackers trap again this time with a 6rogue/14pal build to compare to the 20 artificer. Once again this was done in legendary dreadnought using masters blitz with a thunder forged repeater.


It actually took 6 mins longer (31min total). I really thought that the paladin crit range and multiplier would make a huge difference but it did not. I guess the lack of a runearm and no endless fuselade boosts push arty ahead.


I hope mechanics will also get endless fuselade, and also it shouldn't be an action boost but instead have a set cooldown (60 seconds?) between uses.

[Rautis]

~ Moving the critical bonuses from 18 to 12 opens up a Mechanic build with both 10K Stars and Manyshot. I don't think we want to do that.

I'm not sure why bows were added to the tree originally. But like someone already said why not have the crit increase in level 12 and maybe have it function with non 10k stars weapons only.

~ Players think Wrack Construct is weak and could use more of a boost.
~ We should do a final AP cost pass.

I don't think wrack construct is weak at all. With one repeater wrack you cause -30% fortification with no save and allow sneak attacks to work on the creature. That's more than what Assassin's Trick does and fort debuff stacks for a total of -75% on constructs that are smart enough to be tricked and -50% for others. With fortification debuffs there's also the team dps increase aspect too. It just works on so few enemy types the cost is hard to justify. Maybe make it one or two ap cost with 1 tier with current 3 ap versions effects? If you make it extra damage on constructs with no fort reduction feature it actually becomes weaker since 50% fortification decrease and sneak attacks go rather well together. At some point and probably still there were/are issues with wrack construct working on purple names and I think it should work on them.

[Unsmitten]

The reality is just that reality. I have watched the game and the meta-gamers make FoTM builds here in reality.

The great majority of people calling for the move to 12 from 18 just did the math, they want to run a master builder on endless fulsilade, they want to run master builder with Sniper shot, they want to run master builder with unfettered Slaying arrows, and the list goes on.

I understand this, it would be fun and amazeballs, but it's short sighted and it would not last. As soon as all the uber builds that we have all been banging out on paper since this thread was published went live it would be doomed. Meta-gamers and the FoTM folks would have fun for a few weeks while the community raged about the OP nature (loudly) until the Developers would have to walk it back in the midst of all the future work they will be involved in at that point. So it will have to be a quick and dirty walk back and it will take Mechanics back to a subpar level. The Meta-gamers and FoTM players will move on to the next thing and those of us who always play Mechanics will be stuck with a shortened stick, instead of the excellent one we on the cusp of getting with Sev's proposed changes. That will be short lived golden period followed by suckage.

Honestly, just reading the acrobatics some posters have gone through to justify moving it to lev 12 without pointing out all the insane **** we all know it would allow has been very humorous and at times disheartening.

What is wrong with being a meta-gamer? Or using fotm builds? You peg them as something that is wrong with ddo. Rogues will be the next fotm regardless of what changes are made, simply because changes are being made. Then once the flavor gets old, because pure rogue willl get old quick for most people. Rogue will, as you say, go ignored just as quick.

If you are targetting me, i will give you my reasons for wanting this. Making the crit profile boost a t5 makes the most sense. Yes you will be able to use it with 5 levels, but that would negate any "abuse" of critical rage or slaying arrows. Using t5 is the same point investment as using core 18, so both pure and multi-class would benefit.

Another solution is this, split the range and mulitplier up. Put +1 crit range in a t5, and the mulitplier in core 12(for non-manyshot/10k weapons.) Have core 18 give a +1 Crit multiplier for weapons that use manyshot/10k and great crossbows.

You argue that slaying arrows will be OP with these changes, you are wrong. Slaying arrows will become a niche, because the value of the mechanic t5 are more valuable. Will people still use slaying arrows? Of course, when you can have full access to a tree without any levels in the class it will be used. Let people make that decision for themselves. The point cost is huge to do that, but regardless. Some people will go pure elf rogue for aa, and benefit from both the crits ans slaying arrows. How does your arguement counter this?

Why do you think making it core 18 opens more options?
It only gives a few. Splash 2 paladin for saves, 2 fighter for feats, 2 arti for runearms, 2 monk for feats and stances or any 2 other levels. You argue that pure has to be balanced with multi. They are different playstyles entirely, and both have a place. What you are doing is trying to scratch out the multi-class option.

[nat_1]

The reality is just that reality. I have watched the game and the meta-gamers make FoTM builds here in reality.

I don't think you have, actually, based on this:

I understand this, it would be fun and amazeballs, but it's short sighted and it would not last. As soon as all the uber builds that we have all been banging out on paper since this thread was published went live it would be doomed. Meta-gamers and the FoTM folks would have fun for a few weeks while the community raged about the OP nature (loudly) until the Developers would have to walk it back in the midst of all the future work they will be involved in at that point. So it will have to be a quick and dirty walk back and it will take Mechanics back to a subpar level. The Meta-gamers and FoTM players will move on to the next thing and those of us who always play Mechanics will be stuck with a shortened stick, instead of the excellent one we on the cusp of getting with Sev's proposed changes. That will be short lived golden period followed by suckage.

See the way it works is we assume that the same people will do basically the same thing in the same situation. There was no "quick and dirty walk" back of Swash and Holy Sword.

Don't get me wrong, a walk back of those two would probably have been justifiable. But recent history directly contradicts your chicken-little version of Expert Builder going live at a level which is consistent with the previous passes.

All we are asking for is consistency with the competence bonus across classes getting a pass.

[Mryal]

Keep all bonuses at 18 core.The capstone is alredy underwhelming when compared to a 2 split, moving it to 12 would just ensure no one would get rogue lvls past 12.

Mechanic alredy has subpar self healing,no rume arm, no spells.It needs that to keep competitive/viable.And a better capstone.
Plus DDO doesnt need another holy sword, for those that want +crit and threat range and the other goodies all at once while multiclassing, holy sword is alredy there.Even Sev mentioned its OP alredy, it shouldnt be replicated.

Besides artificer will be revamped in a near future, keeping it on 12 would force turbine to either make the artificer trees even more gamebreaking to make people go away from a 12rogue/x arti split, or just make them underwhelming and not care, not to mention that theres also ranger pass on the next update wich will provide similar issues with deepwood sniper and/or arcane archer depending on how much turbine broadens its concept.

In short : leaving this at 18 gives the mechanic something unique, leaving room for other classes involving ranged to develop other unique things.It creates more build choices in the long run, not less.I believe those are lilkely the conclusions that Sev and dev team reached aswell.

[RockHeavy]

Keep all bonuses at 18 core.The capstone is alredy underwhelming when compared to a 2 split, moving it to 12 would just ensure no one would get rogue lvls past 12.

Mechanic alredy has subpar self healing,no rume arm, no spells.It needs that to keep competitive/viable.And a better capstone.
Plus DDO doesnt need another holy sword, for those that want +crit and threat range and the other goodies all at once while multiclassing, holy sword is alredy there.Even Sev mentioned its OP alredy, it shouldnt be replicated.

Besides artificer will be revamped in a near future, keeping it on 12 would force turbine to either make the artificer trees even more gamebreaking to make people go away from a 12rogue/x arti split, or just make them underwhelming and not care, not to mention that theres also ranger pass on the next update wich will provide similar issues with deepwood sniper and/or arcane archer depending on how much turbine broadens its concept.

In short : leaving this at 18 gives the mechanic something unique, leaving room for other classes involving ranged to develop other unique things.It creates more build choices in the long run, not less.I believe those are lilkely the conclusions that Sev and dev team reached aswell.

Personally I still don't see any incentive to move past 12 levels of rogue for any crossbow build. Compare 18/2 Rog / Arti to 12/6/2 Rog / Ran / Arti...

Going to 18 rogue gets you:
2 special abilities - likely Crippling strike & Slippery mind (assuming Imp Evasion taken at 10)
+4 BAB
+2/+3/+2 saving throws
3 additional sneak attack dice
+1 crit threat / multiplier from "Expert Builder"

going with 6 levels of Ranger gets you:
Rapid Shot, Precise shot for free
2 TWF feats, 2 favoured enemies
+6 BAB
+5/+5/+2 saving throws
12 extra HP
Ram's Might
2 additional sneak attack dice (3 if you take tier 3 Stealthy) from DWS tree
+15m SA and PBS range
Sniper shot - this alone outweighs everything in the mechanic tree

OK, so the last 3 cost you 11AP invested into DWS - but that is a cheap price to pay! Mechanic tree needs a lot more added to make it worth taking beyond level 12.

[Unsmitten]

In short : leaving this at 18 gives the mechanic something unique, leaving room for other classes involving ranged to develop other unique things.It creates more build choices in the long run, not less.I believe those are lilkely the conclusions that Sev and dev team reached aswell.

Please explain how having it at 18 over 12 creates more build choices, the math doesn't add up.

[Oxarhamar]

Please explain how having it at 18 over 12 creates more build choices, the math doesn't add up.

Truth