Rogue - Mechanic (and Traps) Proposed Changes

[Blackheartox]

Ah yes.Well, its a % chance to make that happen vs bow many shot beign able to predict when it happens and precisely combo slaying arrow + adrenaline.
But slaying arrow can and should be blocked away from anything but bows.
Another thing would be to completly remove double shot from repeater, might be lame.But its an idea.

He said they will do something, but il mess with it on lama just to have some fun with first change.
Percantage for example can rise over 60%, if you go for aa last core, it costs alot tho but doable.
Need to recheck new assasin tree first
Also you can go dcrusader for over 100% dshoot, and as some said it seems that it doesnt give 1/3rd dshoot for extra bolts now, so its way more potent then what we think it is.
But il trust my own tests for dshoot

[Zoda]

To clarify some questions:

The rate of fire for a base character with a crossbow with no speed bonuses (like Rapid Reload) should be the same. The reason I say that builds will see an increased rate of fire is that Rapid Reload and itemization boosts (like Pinion) will speed up the entire animation.

On example builds we were testing with various alacrity boosts we saw rates of fire jump from 99 per minute on live to 133 per minute on the test servers. That's a large increase.

To throw out some math to players about the DPS increase and why we need to be careful: take a Mechanic using Shadowdancer on live and assume 10 damage average per bolt. That would be 990 damage per minute. On test this would, with the increased rate of fire and the ranged power in Epic levels and Shadowdancer cores, jump to 1330 * 1.42 = ~1880. That's about double the DPS with *no* boosts to Mechanic.

(Note that damage we pick for the average bolt damage is irrelevant to determining the percent increase.)

Sev~

You can double repeater builds' dps or heck, even tripple it and it's still doubtful that it'd end up being unbalanced (compared to say a 14 paladin 6 monk 10k stars archer). Repeater builds fall off extremely heavily after the heroic levels.

[Severlin]

Caught up on the thread. Some follow up comments:

~ Moving the critical bonuses from 18 to 12 opens up a Mechanic build with both 10K Stars and Manyshot. I don't think we want to do that.

~ Players want the possibility of a Great Crossbow build and have concerns that non-repeating crossbows won't hit hard enough.

~ Doubleshot giving 1/3 the chance to repeaters might be bugged.

~ Players think Wrack Construct is weak and could use more of a boost.

~ Players think longer range for Point Blank Shot and sneak attack fits the sniper theme very well.

~ We should do a final AP cost pass.

~ Players wonder if we could make the Light Repeater prof come earlier. This might not be as necessary if non-repeating crossbows are better.

~ Some critical boosts don't work on some thrown weapons so check for that specifically in the core.

Sev~

[Delacroix21]

Caught up on the thread. Some follow up comments:

~ Moving the critical bonuses from 18 to 12 opens up a Mechanic build with both 10K Stars and Manyshot. I don't think we want to do that.

~ Players want the possibility of a Great Crossbow build and have concerns that non-repeating crossbows won't hit hard enough.

~ Players think longer range for Point Blank Shot and sneak attack fits the sniper theme very well.

~ We should do a final AP cost pass.

Sev~

Love these points and am still hoping to see a viable great crossbow build! As for moving crit cores to 12 and opening up the possibility of 10k stars (not including many shot as you could get that anyway with pure rogue) I don't think its an issue, as you can keep either manyshot or 10k stars up 2/3 of the time I don't think people will swap to a repeater for that 1/3 when things are off cooldown. If they did the dps increase would be minimal.

[ddorimble]

We ripped apart the system and re-implemented the animation scripts for firing crossbows. When this hits Lamannia you will see that crossbows now fire and reload all in one action, somewhat like bows. Each click fires one bolt and reloads for normal crossbows, and fires three bolts and reloads for repeaters. Ranged alacrity now speeds up the entire animation; shooting and reloading. Activated attacks like Leg Shot now queue properly and aren't simply lost as the ability goes on cooldown. And yes Endless Fusilade still works. That took a lot of time to fit into the new system.

That's fantastic news. I'm really happy to hear you tore apart an old system and fixed it. It's the right thing to do, and it should be good for the game in the long run. I know I have been avoiding crossbows for the longest time because of the clunky animations and how the reload animations and firing animations get out of sync.

[R1ncewind]

Caught up on the thread. Some follow up comments:

~ Moving the critical bonuses from 18 to 12 opens up a Mechanic build with both 10K Stars and Manyshot. I don't think we want to do that.

~ Players want the possibility of a Great Crossbow build and have concerns that non-repeating crossbows won't hit hard enough.

~ Doubleshot giving 1/3 the chance to repeaters might be bugged.

~ Players think Wrack Construct is weak and could use more of a boost.

~ Players think longer range for Point Blank Shot and sneak attack fits the sniper theme very well.

~ We should do a final AP cost pass.

~ Players wonder if we could make the Light Repeater prof come earlier. This might not be as necessary if non-repeating crossbows are better.

~ Some critical boosts don't work on some thrown weapons so check for that specifically in the core.

Sev~

if you are afraid of the extra crit for bows, it already exist in the form of pally, how a mechanic build will be more unbalance than 14 pally ( enough to get 10k stars and manyshots) in the worst case you could keep bows and thrower crit bonus in 18 and move crosbows and repeaters to 12.

[Zoda]

~ Moving the critical bonuses from 18 to 12 opens up a Mechanic build with both 10K Stars and Manyshot. I don't think we want to do that.

I completely agree that the crit bonus with 10k stars would be broken (you can still get MS with it, and I think that's fine). However I think it's uncool that you can't get the crit bonus and Endless Fussilade. I think it'd be a good idea to add EF to the mechanic tree.

Besides, most repeater builds would go harper and max int, and spend that one extra feat to get Manyshot and just switch the repeater to bow when MS is up.

if you are afraid of the extra crit for bows, it already exist in the form of pally, how a mechanic build will be more unbalance than 14 pally ( enough to get 10k stars and manyshots) in the worst case you could keep bows and thrower crit bonus in 18 and move crosbows and repeaters to 12.

This sounds like a great solution as well.

[Oxarhamar]

Ah yes.Well, its a % chance to make that happen vs bow many shot beign able to predict when it happens and precisely combo slaying arrow + adrenaline.
But slaying arrow can and should be blocked away from anything but bows.
Another thing would be to completly remove double shot from repeater, might be lame.But its an idea.

I don't see this argument.

Slaying arrow is a ranged "active attack" it works on ranged regardless of weapon.

Who said an Arcane Archer couldn't use Xbows even if the stances only?


Removing double shot from repeaters entirely is the wrong answer it completely invalidates one aspect. Of ranged combat from repeater builds.

Slayer+Adrenaline+Repeater will still likely be behind Slayer+Adrenaline+Manyshot&10kstars builds even with the shots not being lost in reload any longer.

It's quite an expensive AP cost for very little.

The answer is to buff GreatCrossbows for Mechanic

[Delacroix21]

I don't see this argument.

Slaying arrow is a ranged "active attack" it works on ranged regardless of weapon.

Who said an Arcane Archer couldn't use Xbows even if the stances only?


Removing double shot from repeaters entirely is the wrong answer it completely invalidates one aspect. Of ranged combat from repeater builds.

I agree completely. Besides who else uses double shot other then crossbow builds? Archers and throwers don't as 10k stars and manyshot negate that.


I am a bit disheartened that we are discussing repeaters for the majority, as I kinda hoped that we would see a new combat style being brought in, ie the great crossbow.


Don't get me wrong repeaters need a buff, but let's not make it so only repeaters are viable for mechanics. Making repeaters and great crossbows viable in the same tree is too much and represents two opposites: fast repeater, slow great crossbow. Give repeaters an overall buff (I believe you have) and save the total repeater tree for the arty pass. Just like the cores leveling mechanic rogues will "graduate" to a proficiency in a greater damage crossbow as they ?evel.

[Nascoe]

I agree completely. Besides who else uses double shot other then crossbow builds? Archers and throwers don't as 10k stars and manyshot negate that.

I am a bit disheartened that we are discussing repeaters for the majority, as I kinda hoped that we would see a new combat style being brought in, ie the great crossbow.

Don't get me wrong repeaters need a buff, but let's not make it so only repeaters are viable for mechanics. Making repeaters and great crossbows viable in the same tree is too much and represents two opposites: fast repeater, slow great crossbow. Give repeaters an overall buff (I believe you have) and save the total repeater tree for the arty pass. Just like the cores leveling mechanic rogues will "graduate" to a proficiency in a greater damage crossbow as they ?evel.

Sure, repeaters should not be the "only viable" weapon for a mechanic. And its really great if we can see a tree that actually makes using normal crossbows as well as great crossbows a viable alternative. But why do you want to take the repeater away from rogues like you propose? Do you feel better for forcing people to buy artificer if they want to use a repeater?

I can understand if you propose some multi-selectors where you either boost your great crossbow further or boost a repeater (I do not think its needed though, or only if the next Lam round finds it is really super powerfull suddenly) but why do you think its bad to have both?
The change to the animation should also be immediately noticeable for Artificers anyway, so its going to boost them a little bit, along with the ranged power added in several places already (until we get that artificer pass) if your concern is manly that Artis need a boost to their repeater use more than rogues.

[Phoenix-daBard]

~ Players think longer range for Point Blank Shot and sneak attack fits the sniper theme very well.

This should work something like archer's focus but instead have it based on being in sneak mode. Every two seconds in sneak adds a 5% range increase to Point Blank Shot up to a maximum of 10 stacks. Then it would truly fit a sniper's play style.

[Delacroix21]

Sev, if I may propose a RP perspective on mechanics=

~~At level 1 mechanics have a knack for traps and setting them on the battle field, they prefer to use these traps to defeat their enemies and use a light repeating crossbow to funnel them into traps. (light repeater proficiency moved to level 1)
~~At level 6 mechanics have trained enough with the light repeater to handle its recoil, and now use a heavy repeater, the distance which they can hit critical areas improves as does their aim (increased sneak attack range)
~~At level 12 mechanics have spent many long and hard hours absorbing the recoil of a heavy repeater, and their aim has improved to head shots as vital areas. Unfortunately most monster's skulls are too thick for a heavy repeater to penetrate and so the rogue "graduates" to a great crossbow (the crossbow hits hard and the sneak attack damage is doubled), his range of which he can make head shots improves (sneak attack range increase)
~~At level 18 the mechanic has become a master of trap setting, and can make more powerful head shots (crit increases) from an increased distance (sneak attack range increase).


The mechanic "graduates" if you will to a play style where you set up your battlefields with tactically placed traps and bring down foes with powerful headshots!

[Delacroix21]

I can understand if you propose some multi-selectors where you either boost your great crossbow further or boost a repeater (I do not think its needed though, or only if the next Lam round finds it is really super

I can get behind multi selectors I suppose. My reasoning behind great crossbows being the ultimate weapon of the mechanic is to add a new play style to ddo that has been missing. An assassin rogue doesn't have to use daggers and kukris, but they are the PrE defining weapon of assassins. So to would I like to see repeaters viable for mechanics, but their true PrE defining weapon to be the great crossbow.

[Delacroix21]

Oh P.S. Sev! You also missed asking for a bluffing ranged shot for mechanics. The ranger deepwood sniper sniper shot fits nicely=


Sniper Shot: Ranged Attack: Performs a ranged attack with +2[W], a +4 bonus to-hit, +2 to critical threat range, and +2 to Critical Damage Multiplier. On Damage: The target will become momentarily confused and rendered vulnerable to sneak attacks for four seconds as if affected by the bluff skill. (Cooldown 6 seconds)

[Mryal]

I agree completely. Besides who else uses double shot other then crossbow builds? Archers and throwers don't as 10k stars and manyshot negate that.


I am a bit disheartened that we are discussing repeaters for the majority, as I kinda hoped that we would see a new combat style being brought in, ie the great crossbow.


Don't get me wrong repeaters need a buff, but let's not make it so only repeaters are viable for mechanics. Making repeaters and great crossbows viable in the same tree is too much and represents two opposites: fast repeater, slow great crossbow. Give repeaters an overall buff (I believe you have) and save the total repeater tree for the arty pass. Just like the cores leveling mechanic rogues will "graduate" to a proficiency in a greater damage crossbow as they ?evel.

Yea ,exactly, id like to discuss great crossbow too.In fact im gonna be totally honest here, ive spent an entire year doing artificer lives, and that was when monk archer was the new rage, totally op thing that everyone wanted to do, if you would slap a bush in the jungle 90 monkchers would come out hidding from there (thats a saying here in brazil, sorta, i adapted).Ive stashed arti and barely played him due to the viability, etc, maybe i should have tried him more.
But, well, ive never resorted to the whole fury archer thing, it looked cheesy to me.Stuff says melee only should charge it, and ranged does, my moral sense is too high to try that sort of stuff.

Aaaanyway...getting to the point : you saw what severlin said too, repeater will fire and reload at once, in other words, like a bow.Now, with a repeater youre always firing 3 times at least with 0% doubleshot, more with double shot.With the change your also firing 3 slayer arrows at once (as bolts, despite the fact that it says slayer arrow, youre firing slayer bolts!), and at the same time youre also using adrenaline for 3x hits, producing a similar burst from what the monk archers do.While at same time mantaining a rate of fire of 3+ bolts 100% of the time, wich monk archers cannot do.
Of course the burst with a bow would be better, yes.As some others said, you can also user harper tree, pick a bow and use manyshot + fury at once.

What im trying to say is..burst damage has always been the AA/Bow user thing, long before EDs existed, long before we even had 10k stars.Allowing repeater to do sustained damage like it always did + the burst will essentialy be bad, people will convert to repeater builds simple because they will be better than bows in general, and that is not the idea here, its not what i wanted and i dont think its what you wanted either.

This is why i think the fixing has to be on slaying arrow and adrenaline, before this hits live.The fixing on the animation is much welcome.
Regarding great crossbow, i would love to see it beign a viable option too.

[Delacroix21]

This is why i think the fixing has to be on slaying arrow and adrenaline, before this hits live.The fixing on the animation is much welcome.
Regarding great crossbow, i would love to see it beign a viable option too.

I am personally ok with Fury archers, as the last 2 updates have made melee the damage kings. I dont think there are as many Fury archers as people think anymore, shiradi throwers yes but fury archers not so much.


The monkercher hate comes from the general player base that is usually 1-2 updates behind what the best build is. They are not the best builds anymore as now melee are king dps and can finally survive in melee. For a first lifer especially the best builds are different, a first lifer could solo EE on a shiradi thrower or caster, but would find it more difficulty on a fury archer and very difficult on a melee.

[Mryal]

I am personally ok with Fury archers, as the last 2 updates have made melee the damage kings. I dont think there are as many Fury archers as people think anymore, shiradi throwers yes but fury archers not so much.


The monkercher hate comes from the general player base that is usually 1-2 updates behind what the best build is. They are not the best builds anymore as now melee are king dps and can finally survive in melee. For a first lifer especially the best builds are different, a first lifer could solo EE on a shiradi thrower or caster, but would find it more difficulty on a fury archer and very difficult on a melee.

I am ok with them too really, and of course melee is way better - it will be better than anything we are discussing here, with or without sev's buffs, we know that.But thats a different discussion.

What im saying is.There should be means for diversity with ranged, not everyone doing the same ED choices trying to acomplish the same thing.The burst should belong to archers and archers alone.Repeater goes a different route.Great crossbow goes another different route (hopefully).

[nat_1]

Caught up on the thread. Some follow up comments:

~ Moving the critical bonuses from 18 to 12 opens up a Mechanic build with both 10K Stars and Manyshot. I don't think we want to do that.

Sev~

Critical bonus/10k/Manyshot builds are already in game. I don't think a mechanic, specifically, could be game changing in the presence of the previous methods.

Please see my post pages ago. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5570801

My previous post tried to make the point that the power has creeped. It's not good or bad, it's just reality. I'm just asking that this pass keep up with the previous ones which have done the creep. Great now I have Lonely Island Do the Creep in my head. Anyway.

Nope. It's really stuck. Now you must all share with me.

Watch this:


While you read this:


When you solo a quest and you see a raid chest
Do the creep (haaaa)
And do the creep (haaaa)
And if you wanna make friends in the lfm
Do the creep (haaaa)
And do the creep (haaaa)

Well we got a new pass, so sit down in your seat
It's real easy to build and it's called the creep
Let your hands tap the keys like a marionette
Pop your Furyshot Slayer now you’re done with the quest
Now pump your SR up like you expecting a flood
Of beholders this pass and every stare is a dud,
Hotbar your Paladin cleaves, and pop them peepers
Epic Orchard beater, you a certified creeper
When you pull FoM boots from a chest at the beach
Do the creep (haaaa)
And do the creep (haaaa)
And when a mage fire cannon takes a shot at your knee
Do the creep (hoooo)
And do the creep (haaaa)

I was six years old when I started creeping
Drizzt Ranger to the forum and I started peeping
You can imagine my switch to centered ESoS instead
I went 12/6/2 and cut of all of their heads
And they knew I was a creep since I pulled a Torc
Tanked all the pups and momma on my Tukaw Sorc
And the party saw my build and they starting freaking
Cause I came clean and I came out creeping

Nicki, Nicki, Nicki, Nicki, Nicki, Nicki...

When I was a girl, I creeped in Epic Destinies
No save allowed, my guildie private messaged me
Shiradi CC I was oogling and oggling
Mobs don’t get a save, do I need all this coddling
And I would laugh ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
And they would dance la la la la la la la la
So pop pop pop your peepers Whistler your repeaters
Don't sleep, come and get ya creep on with me

Shippies had ya sweating just one bar now to get em
Do the creep (haaaa)
And do the creep (haaaa)

But when you sneak into the forge and you craft a T4
Do the creep (haaaa)
And do the creep (haaa)

Die scaling ain’t so hottie melee power everybody
Do the creep (haaaa)
And do the creep (haaa)

So get your new weapons start your shroom collection
Do the creep (haaaa)
And do the creep (haaa)

And don't forget to smile


Note: Please accept this in light-hearted spirit in which it was given. It is not intended as a criticism. Just embracing where we are and having fun with it.

[Oxarhamar]

I am ok with them too really, and of course melee is way better - it will be better than anything we are discussing here, with or without sev's buffs, we know that.But thats a different discussion.

What im saying is.There should be means for diversity with ranged, not everyone doing the same ED choices trying to acomplish the same thing.The burst should belong to archers and archers alone.Repeater goes a different route.Great crossbow goes another different route (hopefully).

Slayer+Adrenaline with out the buggy shot still won't convince me to run in FoTW.
It's boring offering next to nothing that isn't twistable besides the Burst DPS.

Legendary Dreadnaught & Divine Crusader are much more appealing.

Besides I won't be building for Slayer Arrow either it's extremely AP intensive and there are many other enhancements that I'd rather spend in.

For this who want to build a Slayer+Adrenaline burst type build it is fine.


Now, if we really considered removing Slayer+Adrenaline that would be fine with me as well if there was a larger passive Ranged Power available to bring up the non-burst DPS.

[G_Lich]

While were on the crossbow topic, when compared to bows, what is the reason doubleshot is cut by 1/3rd in design? does repeater really fire 3x faster than a bow? and given bow strength does not apply, why is this needed?

fusillade has limited charges and fires 30 bolts... adrenaline and slayer during this does not apply to more than one bolt. but thats off point, fusillade should be a cd only ability ir feat to be anywhere near as useful as manyshot.