Rogue - Mechanic (and Traps) Proposed Changes

[Saekee]

Sniper shot & the other "active attacks" can be lost in the reload cycle of Xbows.

Endless fuselage is an action boost which doesn't experience the same problems.

*I'll post the full list of active Ranged attacks wich can be lost in the reload cycle as well as linking some threads on the topic when I'm home.

The basics is Xbows have an attack w/attack animation & reload w/reload animation. Using the active attack at an time in the attack reload cycle when the Xbow is not reloaded & animations completed & ready to fire will put the attack on timer with no attack.

The workaround is to make sure your Xbow is loaded before firing the active attack. This has been reported on Lamania as far back as U14 when Epic Destinies introduced many more active attacks to Ranged combat. (I'll post that thread also if I can find it again)

My fix proposal was for the attack not to go on timer if no attack is made.

That's interesting--thx for info.

[Livmo]

Sniper shot & the other "active attacks" can be lost in the reload cycle of Xbows.

Endless fuselage is an action boost which doesn't experience the same problems.

*I'll post the full list of active Ranged attacks wich can be lost in the reload cycle as well as linking some threads on the topic when I'm home.

The basics is Xbows have an attack w/attack animation & reload w/reload animation. Using the active attack at an time in the attack reload cycle when the Xbow is not reloaded & animations completed & ready to fire will put the attack on timer with no attack.

The workaround is to make sure your Xbow is loaded before firing the active attack. This has been reported on Lamania as far back as U14 when Epic Destinies introduced many more active attacks to Ranged combat. (I'll post that thread also if I can find it again)

My fix proposal was for the attack not to go on timer if no attack is made.

Great summary.

[dualscissors]

My apologies if I missed it or if I'm not up to snuff on Mechanics... is there a reason that Mechanic doesn't have a tier-2 action boost for doubleshot 10/20/30%? A comment on the assassin thread about Damage Boost being converted to Melee Power Boost made this come to mind. Melee Power won't work as a crossover ability on bows/xbows/thrown.

[Pieter-Bas]

How soes this work with Ranged Power?
This maybe a silly question, but since update 23, where Ranged Power was introduced, there have been no enhancements added or tweaked to increase Ranged Power... Only the Harper tree. Would these changes use this mechanic, or not?
Again sorry if this is a stupid question...

[Unsmitten]

How soes this work with Ranged Power?
This maybe a silly question, but since update 23, where Ranged Power was introduced, there have been no enhancements added or tweaked to increase Ranged Power... Only the Harper tree. Would these changes use this mechanic, or not?
Again sorry if this is a stupid question...

Little known fact, the Melee Power Action Boosts also give ranged power. So there are a few sources.


There apparently aren't many people interested in contributing to Mechanic. Come on people get involved here.

[Delacroix21]

Little known fact, the Melee Power Action Boosts also give ranged power. So there are a few sources.


There apparently aren't many people interested in contributing to Mechanic. Come on people get involved here.

Well its really hard to tell here, personally I see this as the "Great Crossbow Tree" even though it supports all ranged, as that weapon has always uniquely stunk. That being said I dont think the tree makes the great crossbow viable yet. It also is a pure auto-attack tree, no active shots at all which make it kinda boring.



Add some active skills like endless fuselade or sniper shot (YES!) and change the 40% attack speed to 40% double shot, as ranged haste is less then half the stated value as Oaxarhamar pointed out the initial reload animation is not speed up at all. In fact I think it should be doubleshot based on intelligence like with throwers and dex.

[Unsmitten]

Well its really hard to tell here, personally I see this as the "Great Crossbow Tree" even though it supports all ranged, as that weapon has always uniquely stunk. That being said I dont think the tree makes the great crossbow viable yet. It also is a pure auto-attack tree, no active shots at all which make it kinda boring.



Add some active skills like endless fuselade or sniper shot (YES!) and change the 40% attack speed to 40% double shot, as ranged haste is less then half the stated value as Oaxarhamar pointed out the initial reload animation is not speed up at all. In fact I think it should be doubleshot based on intelligence like with throwers and dex.

You're right that it is severely lacking in ranged tactical abilities. Honestly, I would like to see them dismantle the deepwood stalker tree and add the ranged stuff to mechanic.

As for the 40% attack speed to double shot. First it's reload speed, not attack speed. Second, 40% double shot would be way extreme, unless it is only for great crossbows. Third, look at tree as it is now, it gets 10% double shot already. They just didn't change it so they didn't post it here. People seem to forget that they only post the changes they want to make here, not the whole trees.

[Oxarhamar]

Here is a thread discussing the topic (I suggest the workaround in this thread but, that is before I built a Repeater Ranger which had many more Active Attacks to manage than just Pin which was unplayable due to the annoyances of timing all those shots to not be lost) The list in the thread is outdates but, its one I personally complied and posted for MajMal ~1 year ago.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ar+active+shot

here some more

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ar+active+shot

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ar+active+shot

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-and-abilities

I was unable to find the Lamania Thread on the topic but, it's been reported on the ED abilities that are Active Attacks since U14 ~2012


I'm all for some more Active attacks IF they fix this issue.

[Unsmitten]

Another Idea, to make the tree less Core dependent and follow the same theme as other trees do for weapon lines. What if you had Core 18 Expert Builder be +5 Ranged Power and +2 crit multiplier with Great Crossbows. In addition, this ability reduces the cooldowns of Alchemical Trap attacks by 20%. Then, instead of making the t5 Sharpshooter give +3 attack and damage. Make Sharpshooter give a +1 competence bonus to crit range and multiplier with bows, crossbows and throwing weapons. That would essentially look exactly like the quarterstaff lines in TA and HeM trees. Doing this would keep multi-classing viable, while at the same time making sure to keep the choices on enhancement spending difficult. Would be the same AP cost as having it in Core 18, but would give access much sooner. Then having Core 18 give an additional +1-2 crit multiplier for great crossbows would make going pure rogue have more value.

Next, instead of my idea of making the capstone a multi-selector(would be silly to make a core 6 from another tree a capstone here!). First, you could switch the places of Cores 3 and 6. Then make Core 6 a multi-selector between Tanglefoot Flask and Sniper Shot. Giving you the choice between a defensive or offensive ability.

What I see you doing now is you are giving +1 hit/damage/sneak attack dice in the cores. You should keep the +hit/damage in the weapon line in the actual tree. Then, since some have complained that mechanic shouldn't get sneak attack dice. I would suggest giving +5 Ranged power at cores 12, 18 and the Capstone instead of the +hit/damage/sneak dice.

[Unsmitten]

Here is a thread discussing the topic (I suggest the workaround in this thread but, that is before I built a Repeater Ranger which had many more Active Attacks to manage than just Pin which was unplayable due to the annoyances of timing all those shots to not be lost) The list in the thread is outdates but, its one I personally complied and posted for MajMal ~1 year ago.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ar+active+shot

here some more

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ar+active+shot

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ar+active+shot

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-and-abilities

I was unable to find the Lamania Thread on the topic but, it's been reported on the ED abilities that are Active Attacks since U14 ~2012


I'm all for some more Active attacks IF they fix this issue.

I agree that they need to fix it, I personally have died so many times trying to CC mobs with Pin/Whistler only to have their cooldowns go off, but nothing happens.

[btolson]

I'm all for some more Active attacks IF they fix this issue.

Likewise. If they can't prevent active attacks being consumed by reload animation, then I don't want to see any more active attacks.

[Delacroix21]

You're right that it is severely lacking in ranged tactical abilities. Honestly, I would like to see them dismantle the deepwood stalker tree and add the ranged stuff to mechanic.

As for the 40% attack speed to double shot. First it's reload speed, not attack speed. Second, 40% double shot would be way extreme, unless it is only for great crossbows. Third, look at tree as it is now, it gets 10% double shot already. They just didn't change it so they didn't post it here. People seem to forget that they only post the changes they want to make here, not the whole trees.

Yes I meant greatcross bows only would get the extra 40% double strike, as I see this tree being tied more to a specific weapon like acrobat (staff), assassin (knives/kukri), and here greatcross bow.


as for the issue of reloads eating the active shot I doubt they will have time to fix that . Endless fuselade works fine so add that.

[Letho]

I like the changes. I'v lvled pure mechanic twice, and i'v always wanted to play it with great crossbow - never liked repeaters. More active abilities would all so be a good idea. And i, personal, never think of losing cd in reload animation as a problem. just get used to it.

Overall i like changes as they are now. Sniper shoot and more damage(one way or another) to great crossbow would be nice.

And i'm all so interested. Does Fletching work with crafted grenades? May be it's a good idea to add some ability to throw them without equipping them as a weapon?

p.s.
eager to see artificer(or some other range/tinkering oriented) ED that would fit mechanic style better then shiradi

edit
Mechanic do have enough active abilities, but they all should work and be effective. Not like thunderstone now.

[Saekee]

On live the mechanic tree has 8 active abilities to use while the ranged part of the ranger DWS tree has 5, and Sniper Shot is the core and crux of the DWS tree and is equally if not more powerful than the rest of the tree combined.

Sniper Shot + Repeater + doubleshot is also not something you want a lot of players using in heroics, as it is nothing short of broken. Sniper Shot level power is better suited as a capstone, since repeaters are already godly at lower heroic levels.

It also doesn't fit thematically that a mechanic is skilled as a sniper. There is already an assassin tree for rogues where such attacks belong.

It would be a great deal of fun if every time you failed to crit, your crit multiplier increased by one (similar to exploit weakness) with non-repeating crossbows. Some sort of advanced targeting tier 5 enhancement. This would be in place of Sniper, which sorta seems out of place thematically.

I agree--I didn't like the addition of bows but will go with anyway--but love the idea of the crit affect. This would be quite powerful if some other effect affects archer's focus for great xbows.

[Gabrion]

[*]Expert Builder: You gain a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range and Critical Multiplier for bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Critical Multiplier increases to +2 for great crossbows.
Sev~

Don't promise something the team can't deliver. So far it seems like they've been unable to get past some sort of limitation that prevents implementing increased crit multipliers for thrown weapons. See swashbuckler and holy sword (not that I think the latter should apply to ranged in the first place, but it still seems pretty clear that the only thing it's excluding is thrown weapons).

On the other hand, if they plan to at least fix that part of swashbuckler before in order to properly implement the change to expert builder, well then I'm a fan of the mechanic update just for that.

[legendkilleroll]

Don't promise something the team can't deliver.

Sigh, where was a promise? Nothing is ever promised, " my favourite class wasn't buffed! You promised, you lied!"

[Oxarhamar]

I like the changes. I'v lvled pure mechanic twice, and i'v always wanted to play it with great crossbow - never liked repeaters. More active abilities would all so be a good idea. And i, personal, never think of losing cd in reload animation as a problem. just get used to it.

Overall i like changes as they are now. Sniper shoot and more damage(one way or another) to great crossbow would be nice.

And i'm all so interested. Does Fletching work with crafted grenades? May be it's a good idea to add some ability to throw them without equipping them as a weapon?

p.s.
eager to see artificer(or some other range/tinkering oriented) ED that would fit mechanic style better then shiradi

edit
Mechanic do have enough active abilities, but they all should work and be effective. Not like thunderstone now.

Losing active shots in reload is definitely a problem.

Get use to it was once my logic too when I played a Repeater build that only used Pin.

But, when I played a Mechanic/DWS built around active attacks in Epics it was a different story having a dozen active attacks attempting to manage cool downs, continue firing at top rate of fire & time all the active attacks into the cycle without losing them.

Using a few occasionally is workable, having many becomes a problem.

[Gabrion]

Sigh, where was a promise? Nothing is ever promised, " my favourite class wasn't buffed! You promised, you lied!"

Whatever, you know exactly what I mean. If the devs put an ability into the game that says:

"While Swashbuckling, the following weapons receive Competence bonuses to their critical profiles:
Dagger, Shortsword, Throwing Dagger: +1 Threat Range, +1 Multiplier
Light Mace, Light Hammer, Kama, Sickle, Dart, Shuriken, Throwing Axe, Throwing Hammer: +2 Threat Range, +1 Multiplier
Kukri, Rapier: +1 Multiplier
Handaxe: +2 Range
Light Pick: +1 Range"

And the resulting ability does not in fact do what it states, you can call it whatever you want, but I hope you can at least admit it's misleading.

I think you miss the point anyway. It's not about asking for buffs for "my favorite class" (though I've never played a deep rouge in eight or so years of playing). In this case they are the ones proposing the changes, and for whatever reason, one change they are proposing is an increased crit multiplier to thrown weapons for deep rogues. All I'm saying is if they think that is an appropriate change, they should implement it correctly, rather than having the in-game description suggest something that isn't true.

Let me just check, are you actually arguing they shouldn't be concerned whether mechanics match their in game descriptions?

[legendkilleroll]

Whatever, you know exactly what I mean. If the devs put an ability into the game that says:

"While Swashbuckling, the following weapons receive Competence bonuses to their critical profiles:
Dagger, Shortsword, Throwing Dagger: +1 Threat Range, +1 Multiplier
Light Mace, Light Hammer, Kama, Sickle, Dart, Shuriken, Throwing Axe, Throwing Hammer: +2 Threat Range, +1 Multiplier
Kukri, Rapier: +1 Multiplier
Handaxe: +2 Range
Light Pick: +1 Range"

And the resulting ability does not in fact do what it states, you can call it whatever you want, but I hope you can at least admit it's misleading.

I think you miss the point anyway. It's not about asking for buffs for "my favorite class" (though I've never played a deep rouge in eight or so years of playing). In this case they are the ones proposing the changes, and for whatever reason, one change they are proposing is an increased crit multiplier to thrown weapons for deep rogues. All I'm saying is if they think that is an appropriate change, they should implement it correctly, rather than having the in-game description suggest something that isn't true.

Let me just check, are you actually arguing they shouldn't be concerned whether mechanics match their in game descriptions?

Its a bug, they havent intentionally said you get crit multiplier when they dont want to give it, there are lots of things i want to see implemented correctly, unfortunetly it takes time, take a look at the bug list, things been around a long time.

The favourite class part wasnt really at you, just generally what people seem to bring up, how devs have promised them something, they dont promise, they try to do what they can. An example is the ranged power which looks to be coming in U25, it was brought up when melee power came out and because its taken them a little longer you hears crys of "you promised me ranged power! its not fair that i dont have it yet!"

[Gabrion]

Its a bug, they havent intentionally said you get crit multiplier when they dont want to give it, there are lots of things i want to see implemented correctly, unfortunetly it takes time, take a look at the bug list, things been around a long time.

The favourite class part wasnt really at you, just generally what people seem to bring up, how devs have promised them something, they dont promise, they try to do what they can. An example is the ranged power which looks to be coming in U25, it was brought up when melee power came out and because its taken them a little longer you hears crys of "you promised me ranged power! its not fair that i dont have it yet!"

Fair enough. This thread is about proposed changes though, so I was just pointing out that there seems to be something wonky in the background with thrown weapons (always been true) and that if they intend to give another enhancement line additional thrown goodies, they would be well served to check out if it's even possible before they "implement." I think there are two responsible paths to follow on this topic:

1) Accept that they haven't figured out how to make thrown weapons follow the rules (and presumably they don't have the manpower to fix this or even track down what the issue is). In this case, they should just leave mention of thrown weapons increased crit multipliers out of the changes to thief acrobat.
2) Track down the issues with thrown weapon crit multiplies and fix them so that when they release the overhaul of theif acrobat, the in game description isn't misleading.

I'm perfectly fine with either and wouldn't even expect them to tell me if they decided the juice wasn't worth the squeeze and they just dropped the increased multiplier to thrown weapons because they didn't have the time/resources to figure it out. The only thing that bugs me is if/when they go ahead updating the enhancements to make them say they do one thing, when in fact they don't.