Rogue - Mechanic (and Traps) Proposed Changes

[legendkilleroll]

I'm not really a ranged player, only tried xbow arty 1life so not sure how good these will, hope it can be a viable tree for ee content

When swashbuckler was added, only named buckler was the cove one, since then has been two from 3BC, two from EOrchard, maybe they can start adding some named great and non repeating xbows in future

[Myrddinman]

I do not care for mechanics using bows--it doesn't feel right, even if it helps my build in my sig. I would shift throwing daggers to the assassin tree, dump bows and stay with repeaters and great xbows. Also, I would add an exploding shot for great xbows, like a grenade launcher.

^ Exactly this. Let Bows be the province of Rangers, thrown weapons: Assassin, and Repeaters/Crossbows: Mechanic.

Even with the nice Great Crossbow changes, I still think they need more oomph. They have to be devastating.

[Myrddinman]

Someone probably mentioned this already, but I note that there are no changes to trap skills of any sort, or trap saves, even though Mechanic is the trappist tree.

One assumes then that Turbine is already pleased with trap-removing abilities as they are?

Since Sev did not provide a complete write-up of the tree, but only the changes, I would assume that both Mechanics and Awareness are both still available in the tree.

[nibel]

5) In the original beta for the new EN mechanic "tree", there was a "fast disable" EN. What happened to that? I really liked that idea.

It was incorporated as a global reduction in search and disable device time. Before SC, it took roughly double the current time to search or disable stuff. IIRC, it had some bug that if you took the enhancement, then reset your enhancements, the fast search/DD would still function.

[Saekee]

^ Exactly this. Let Bows be the province of Rangers, thrown weapons: Assassin, and Repeaters/Crossbows: Mechanic.

Even with the nice Great Crossbow changes, I still think they need more oomph. They have to be devastating.

Hi Myrddijiman, I am glad you agree with me. Let deepwood snipers stay as the snipers. Mechanics should be tactical tinkerers and demolitionists. The snipe-like effect of the great xbow is fine but the bow ability makes no sense. Bows are just different animals than xbows. The former I imagine as being about zen and grace; the latter about knowledge and technology. Bows--10K (wisdom) and DEX; xbows--fusilade and INT.

[Cleanincubus]

Didn't read the first post in this thread, did you? There's 10 ranged power in the tree. To go with the ranged attack speed increase, the ranged crit range increase, and ranged crit multiplier increase, I'd say the tree provides quite a lot of ranged DPS.

And when they do the ranged pass, while most of the ranged power will come in epics -- just like most melee power does -- perhaps they'll put some ranged power into the ranged feats.

Gotcha, I missed the 10 Ranged Power, and just saw the returning part of Fletching. It just annoys me when the Devs make design choices on theoretical things. It might in fact work great in Epic levels, but until those theoretical changes are made, it'll be pretty weak. And to me, I just don't see a balance here with other classes, which should be the intent of changing an Enhancement Tree. I guess we'll see.

[Artagon]

1) Fletching v. Conjure Bolts: I have always been an advocate for mechanics to have an EN "similar to conjure bolts". I also agree that "conjuring" isn't really in the rogue baileywick, per se, so the "fletching" proposal is good. However, seeing as how arcane archers get a tier one EN for 100% returning arrows, and with some house D favor, you can buy 75% returning ammo, I think it should be 75%/85%/100% - it is, after all, a tier 4 EN. But if you really think 100% is just too much, then OK, make it 95%. If you're going to insist on keeping the first level at 50%, then make it 50%/75%/100%.

Though we haven't seen the specifics yet, Sev mentioned here that there will be better craftable bolts/arrows coming down the line, which the returning will be a huge benefit for. As the class that makes things to boost DPS and be tricky, Fletching as-is makes a lot of sense to me.

Until that change happens, may I suggest making holy bolts in cannith or just UMD some flame arrow scrolls?

[Tesrali]

We need "meter improvement" bonuses to point blank shot and ranged sneak attack in the mechanic tree or elf will be the required race imo.

[Delacroix21]

First off, I LOVE the changes!


But I have a few points=

1. Traps still dont scale, you will be stuck with whatever the base damage of the level 27 trap is (unless its 1000+ damage i dont see a use for them in EE when my S&B toon has a 50% crit chance and crits for 500 damage every other swing+ 300 damage from crippling flames/dragons edge). Adding melee/ranged power to traps would be nice.
2. Trap DCs still to low to the point of unusable for non-mechanics
3. I read that epic levels will add ranged power, but will items? I recommend making the rogue abilities scale with 250% ranged power instead of 200%, as there is very little ranged power in ddo.

[Delacroix21]

Oh! and no removal of ranged sneak attack penalty like deepwood stalker? That stinks.


Ok so Sev, we both know a huge portion of rogue damage comes from sneak attack right? Well there are lots of times when you wont be able to be in ranged sneak range in ddo (FoT crystal, etc.) so rogue damage will really drop off there.


Also it just fits the whole sniper sort of thing by removing the ranged penalty. A close range sniper doesnt make sense! lol

[Silverleafeon]

Does the returning from Mechanic stack with returning from ammo or is it just the higher of the two?

I wondered this as well.

How come Wand and Scroll Mastery is tier 2, when other characters get it at tier 1?

I guess cause rogues are not magic users per say.

Also if we have Amethyst Arrows out of Threnal that are 50% returning,
what's the change of getting 100% returning ammo? I mean, I'm just most characters
would appreciate carrying a stack of 100% returning plain old ammo just for when they run
out. It wouldn't be anything fancy, and it would be a nice backup,

Hmm...magical masterwork 100% returning ammo...interesting idea. Maybe Epic Vale / Shav vendor with appropriate favor?

also, can crafting ammo be done
in quantities of 1,000 instead?

Thank you

Nods in agreement, can 1,000 or 500 become the new standard of ammo quantities for crafting/loot drops.

Also that Quiver is very interesting, could we have more like it. How about a bolt producing version and an epic version with better ammo? Could these produce larger quantities as well such as 200 units.

I just hope similar changes will be made to the artificers too. Especially that +1 competence to threat and multiplier, will make artificers do some damage.

Hopefully Steelstar is perusing this thread as well for future reference.

[CaptainSpacePony]

Hi Myrddijiman, I am glad you agree with me. Let deepwood snipers stay as the snipers. Mechanics should be tactical tinkerers and demolitionists. The snipe-like effect of the great xbow is fine but the bow ability makes no sense. Bows are just different animals than xbows. The former I imagine as being about zen and grace; the latter about knowledge and technology. Bows--10K (wisdom) and DEX; xbows--fusilade and INT.

For the sake of discussion, as someone recently brought to my attention, that the Deepwood hasn't produced SNIPERS for some time. They are now STALKERS.

[Oxarhamar]

Didn't read the first post in this thread, did you? There's 10 ranged power in the tree. To go with the ranged attack speed increase, the ranged crit range increase, and ranged crit multiplier increase, I'd say the tree provides quite a lot of ranged DPS.

And when they do the ranged pass, while most of the ranged power will come in epics -- just like most melee power does -- perhaps they'll put some ranged power into the ranged feats.

You are aware the topic was the abilities that scale with 200% ranged power.

And where is that Ranged power coming from?

Not DPS

[Rautis]

The returning bonus applied on bolts/arrows is neat. What I was thinking is that maybe it could be moved to cores so level 1 core gives 50% returning and each core after that increases that by 10% so at capstone it becomes 100%. Would this be too powerful? It would mean that pure level 20 rogue could try to find different ammo types that would help the most in different situations and equip them without fear of running out.

I was thinking about this because of someone suggesting runearm proficiency for capstone. In general I think that most ammo are weaker than equal level runearms. It is just adding 1 DR piercing property and/or 3d6 for greater bane ammo, 2d6 for holy/anarchic/axiomatic, or 1d6 for some other ammo. And for example finding and carrying bane arrows for each mob type is not easy.

Only problematic type I can think of are creature type x slaying ammo which would offer a chance to kill epic monsters when they roll a 1 if the mechanic has type of arrows equipped that works on monster type he is attacking. I haven't ever killed anything with this ammo type so I'm not sure about actual mechanics and if for example death ward or other things block it. You could just nerf/change slaying ammo to acceptable level. Afterall they're so rare as loot type that the most I've collected of one type is 100 arrows of giant/elemental slaying. That's less than 1 manyshot requires and I've collected them for about 4 years as they're required for cannith crafting recipes.

I liked hunting for different runearms when arti was new. Hunting for different ammo types as Mechanic could be rather interesting too and add extra depth to Mechanic play.

I am really not sure about changing the tree to benefit bows in particular too. Elf AA combo might be just too must have for ranged rogues.

Other thing I have to agree about is increasing sneak attack range a bit for mechanics. Maybe 5/10 meters from Fletcher and 5/10 meters from Sniper? Or 5 meters per sharpshooter tier?

Leg Shot is a nice attack but it suffers from repeater reload cycle mechanic. If you press it while repeater is not loaded it triggers reload animation, goes on cooldown and you don't get the effect. Maybe it could be changed to give an adrenaline like buff that goes away when the repeater actually fired or weapon is changed? Same thing should be done to Otto's Whistler and Pin from Shiradi. Or just trigger a buff that is short enough to include just 1 repeater attack cycle? Currently special attacks with crossbows can be rather annoying to make work.

[Saekee]

For the sake of discussion, as someone recently brought to my attention, that the Deepwood hasn't produced SNIPERS for some time. They are now STALKERS.

Ok but:
Sniper Shot: Ranged Attack: Performs a ranged attack with +2[W], a +4 bonus to-hit, +2 to critical threat range, and +2 to Critical Damage Multiplier. On Damage: The target will become momentarily confused and rendered vulnerable to sneak attacks for four seconds as if affected by the bluff skill. (Cooldown 6 seconds)
+10 Positive Spell Power

[Drus-the-Axe]

As an aside I like the idea of making ammunition found in treasure to drop with an increased stack size

How about increased AND RANDOM size?

Instead of always 20 how about e.g. 1-100? Or since throwing weapons have smaller max stacks how about 1 - min(100, maxstacksize)

[General_Gronker]

I would assume that both Mechanics and Awareness are both still available in the tree.

Which is still a very poor showing for something called Mechanic. As I said, this should be renamed Arbalist. Because this tree isn't about being a mechanic or a saboteur (that would actually be cross between a couple of trees), but is about shooting things with crossbows while occasionally tossing stuff (that you should be able to buy from a vendor) at enemies to no real good effect.

Someone probably mentioned this already,

I did.

Can we please just change this to Bane damage vs. Constructs it's not worth a bar slot for an active ability that works on ONE enemy type.

You are correct. Not worth it as is, change to construct bane damage is a much better idea.

Could anyone else confirm this problem/ if they have seen this before? I might just be me.

It's not just you. It's been a problem with great x-bows for a long time now. I actually had a great crossbow kensai a couple years back, who was great fun WHEN the great x-bows worked. But this that you're talking about got so bad I ended up LRing him as a falchion Kensai. Was kinda hoping they had fixed that issue by now so I could go back to great x-bow kensai on one of his lives.

[IronClan]

Can we please just change this to Bane damage vs. Constructs it's not worth a bar slot for an active ability that works on ONE enemy type.

In that case can we work in some PRR/Fort bypass in for Great X-bows...they knock people down already with that kinda punch and bolts rep for piercing armor in IRL it would make sense

Agreed, and yeah some stacking ranged fort bypass would fit in.


BTW Sev love the Saboteur flavor, can we turn (turnt?) it up a bit? Right now without you saying it I wouldn't have gotten that feel from the tree.

How about: when sneaking your ranged attacks have X chance to assassinate (smallish chance like 20%) this is in addition to (and stacks additively) with the % chance from the Shadowdancer attack.

Or, can we simply make it a toggle to allow sneak attack on constructs?

Why a toggle, when would you ever NOT want sneak attack?

Indeed, if it's a toggle it needs a reason why you would turn it off, change it to:

"Sabotage armor" (moar flavor!) a +5[W] attack that Effects all mobs with a 30% fort reduction that stacks with improved sunder, and eliminates a Contruct and Undeads immunity to sneak attack for 6 seconds.

[IronClan]

Oh yeah and I know absolutely no ones said it yet <wink wink nudge nudge> but we need a few Named great crossbows...

Perferably ones that emphasize first number damage over affixes and 2% and 5% proc chances... The attack speed is abysmal, so it's going against the grain to make a bunch of great Xbows with lots of secondary elemental damage affixes like Shocking Burst and Cloud Burst and Lightning Strike. On crit effects on the other hand are fair game. On vorpal effects to take advantage of 19-20. Base damage and crit profile to make for heavy hitter first numbers.

Some ideas:

CarniFlex (drops in Deleras this is both a play on the much loved greataxe AND a play on how some people mispronounce the greataxe's name)
ML4
Keen
17-20 expanded base range X3 multiplier (end range with keen is 14-20)
Red slot

Yulthoon's Amorphous Scorpion
ML14
Normal stats
On all hits your Base damage is randomly considered to be 1d4 elemental, light, force, rust or negative, if purple damage is done that element/force/light/etc. is chosen for all subsequent attacks until normal, yellow or Green damage is done where it goes back to random.
On all critical hits the following effects are possible (percentage chosen based on whats best for balance):
Soundburst
Otto Dance Ball
Icestorm
Chain Lightning
Meteor strike
Phantasmal Killer
Earthquake
Summon fashionable Taken
Grease
Ham

Spinesplitter (bone look) Available via Tome of Ledend Turn ins.
ML16
X4
Seeker 10
Heartseeker
Red slot

Unwavering Ballista (Mark of Death raid) looks a little like an Unwavering ardency turned sideways
ML28
3[W]2d12
17-20 X3
Blinding embers, all crits proc an 8 second no save blind
Smoke screen

[IronClan]

Working on a Mechanic build inspired by these changes, I wonder if Core 18 Great Xbow Multiplier couldn't be moved to core 12? The reason I bring this up is the 18/2 multiclassing options on a rogue are decidedly boring and typical (uninspiring) old school 2 splashes are the only option besides capstone with such a strong core 18. In fact I would say that core 18 makes it compulsory to have at least 18 Rogue levels.

I see a trend with Pure paladins Pure Barbs and Pure Rogues becoming almost defacto I am okay with swinging the pendulum back from where it got to with the enhancement pass, I'm even more okay with it if it's only a few classes that get this super strong incentive to be pure (Paladins and Barbs are fine as such IMO) but Rogue has always been a much more flexible class like Fighter, often gaining your "flavor" from the other classes you choose. You guys IMO are swinging it back too hard... Right back to pre-Enhancement pass DDO which was a splash 2, go pure or you're gimp and declined from raids (except a few notable power builds). While I can agree the E-pass probably made multiclassing too de-rigueur, you guys are swinging it soo hard back in the opposite direction that Pure and 2 splash is going to be de-rigueur.