Rogue - Mechanic (and Traps) Proposed Changes

[jaggyjag]

Working on a Mechanic build inspired by these changes, I wonder if Core 18 Great Xbow Multiplier couldn't be moved to core 12? The reason I bring this up is the 18/2 multiclassing options on a rogue are decidedly boring and typical (uninspiring) old school 2 splashes are the only option besides capstone with such a strong core 18. In fact I would say that core 18 makes it compulsory to have at least 18 Rogue levels.

I see a trend with Pure paladins Pure Barbs and Pure Rogues becoming almost defacto I am okay with swinging the pendulum back from where it got to with the enhancement pass, I'm even more okay with it if it's only a few classes that get this super strong incentive to be pure (Paladins and Barbs are fine as such IMO) but Rogue has always been a much more flexible class like Fighter, often gaining your "flavor" from the other classes you choose. You guys IMO are swinging it back too hard... Right back to pre-Enhancement pass DDO which was a splash 2, go pure or you're gimp and declined from raids (except a few notable power builds). While I can agree the E-pass probably made multiclassing too de-rigueur, you guys are swinging it soo hard back in the opposite direction that Pure and 2 splash is going to be de-rigueur.

Nope. moving it from 18 to 12 would be a mistake and way to powerful for 12 ability.

Also Let me point out that enhancement tree passes are targeted at making class viable not making it a good splash class. The benefits of a splash here and there are all fine and well, but asking for things like the proposed Core 18 to be bumped down, are just the first step for meta-gaining the class right back into irrelevance.

[SealedInSong]

Theres no fixing this one.I still say, complete removal of concentration checks on DDO is the only way.The system isnt meant for the reality we have.

Instead, I just think that every 5 levels, you should get some modest multiplier to your concentration skill in defense of interruption. I.e.

lvl5 = *0.25 conc total
10 = *0.5

and linear progression. Testing to refine the formula would be good.

[SealedInSong]

Wow ,big changes.Im not comenting on traps since i have no experience on them.

Thunderstone and tanglefoot - Those are interesting, damage would sill be pretty poor on epics, usualy shooting an assorted ranged weapon would do more, i get that they can be used for CC thought.But i have a suggestion : Make them have no animation, but block them from beign used if charging a rune arm.The idea is if youre using a crossbow/great crossbow, people never get to experience the capstone of mechanic really, 2 arti is needed for rune arm use, not having a rune arm is too huge a loss.Allowing these to be used as a sort of replacement for rune arm shots would be great!

I love the versatility in the tree.The bonuses in great crossbow might make it viable, i have to say im eager to actualy try that on lamania.In fact a lot of this requires lamania testing for proper feedback.Its interesting to think that we might finaly have a viable ranged character that isnt tied to shooting multiple projectiles at once and can make full use of doubleshot.But at the same time the tree also mantains bonuses to other weapons making it still be good for splashing as it is now.

DCs of 10+rogue level+int are still low i'd say thought, consider adding some form of epic lvls in the process.Youre mostly sitting at at least -2 DC from splashing 2 arti with this alredy.

Sev, you mentioned 3rd arti tree and arti EDs and ranged pass, this tree mentions ranged power.Can we have an input on what else will come on this update? arti trees revamp? just the 3rd tree? ED? No trees at all for arti?

Hip flask is a cute capstone, but I also see very little reason to not splash for 2 arti. This might serve the devs insofar as rogue is f2p and arti is p2p. In any case, I'd still like to see a nice incentive or workaround.

I.e. let's say add Runearm Use feat as selectable by any class that has 8 natural ranks in UMD.

[IronClan]

Nope. moving it from 18 to 12 would be a mistake and way to powerful for 12 ability.

Also Let me point out that enhancement tree passes are targeted at making class viable not making it a good splash class. The benefits of a splash here and there are all fine and well, but asking for things like the proposed Core 18 to be bumped down, are just the first step for meta-gaining the class right back into irrelevance.

12 is not a splash class LOL it's almost the same requirement as Holy Sword, except that Holy Sword applies to lots of highly Optimal weapon choices while this applies to mostly highly non optimal weapons. If we wanted we could have Bow's only get it at 18...

What is rapidly happening is that we're returning to the bad old days when Pure was almost always clearly optimal a 2 splash was mistrusted but grudingly accepted in the few circumstances that it wasn't obvious why you'd do it, and anything more was grounds to be declined from groups by a considerable segment of the playerbase.

BTW I don't have a problem making the capstone more interesting because a 2 Arti splash is almost mandatory the way the cores work now.

IMO this tree is far too backloaded with almost nothing in the middle that offers interesting multlcassing... basically it's 18 Rogue 2 Arti or go home. MAYBE if you want to sacrifice significant DPS via Rune Arm imbues on your Great Xbow you take 1 or 2 Barb for run speed and some dodge (and sprint boost if you want to throw away AP's getting to it). There's also a Minor 2 Bard splash synergy for dodge, PRR from WC and sprint boost. But mostly the options are highly uninspiring, and the clear cut winner is probably 2 Artificer, especially if they get something nice in a third tree soon.

I don't see a compelling argument for why a sub optimal weapon improver shouldn't be 2 levels lower than a eSoS/TF falchion/Staff crit profile improvement. It's not lvl 3 like Bard so I just don't think someone objecting to it has a leg to stand on.

The DPS added from a Glass Cannon or Knives Eternal Rune Arm alone makes 2 Arti mandatory.

[SealedInSong]

Makes me think I make change the level splits on my Rogue/arti/ranger. Maybe even go 18 rogue/2 arti (Gotta have rune arm use)

Giving up runearm use when using crossbows will force most people wanting to contribute meaningful DPS to splash arti.

I also think that allowing http://ddowiki.com/page/Rune_Arm_Use to be selectable with X natural ranks in UMD would be good for more Cannoneer pure bard swashes, and other fun flavorful melee builds that don't splash arti.

If anyone argues that rune arms should stay exclusively arti, I'd rebut that it'd be like saying abundant step should be a Monk only ability. We have plenty of cross-pollinated abilities, and adding rune arm use for non-artificers that invest for it is good for game diversity

[SealedInSong]

Agreed, it's ok, but I can have like a constant +20 damage with a Glass Cannon on. You better come big if you want people to put that down.

Plot Twist (by M. Night Shyamalan): Level 20 Mechanic capstone allows Rune Arm use. That's right, I said it. It honestly doesn't seem all that different from the way Evasion was given to Swashbuckler's at 20. To mollify that obvious and practically required 2 Rogue splash.

In fact I might like this solution a bit better as it makes mechanics a little more shiny

[SealedInSong]

~ The flavor we wanted for Mechanic is to be a saboteur and sniper.
~ We don't want them to be an Artificer light, so we don't want to just import Artificer stuff into the tree.
~ Runearms will stay exclusive to Artificers.

We had a long discussion of conjured bolts versus Fletching on the player council forums. Some points:

~ If you really want to conjure bolts you have UMD and scrolls.
~ Conjuration spells really isn't in flavor for rogues.
~ Fletching will really shine when we have more powerful crafted ammunition with updated crafting systems, and will be also be really good if we put more powerful ammunition on special vendors.

As an aside I like the idea of making ammunition found in treasure to drop with an increased stack size. I can't promise that for Update 25 however.

Sev~

Disregard my above comments about Rune Arm Use then, if the devs definitely don't want that direction.

I like everything said above, Sev; and I particularly think that crafted (and even more named) ammunition would be aaaaawesome.

[SealedInSong]

I think if limiting the discussion to pure Rogue, I'd still prefer Assassin capstone, but take Tier 5 Mechanic.

I have better things to use my Action Boosts on, so I'm really only seriously considering the Passive benefits.

They should consider just putting it on a cooldown and not making it an Action Boost, like Uncanny Dodge et al.

Yes please. Also lower the cooldown. Anything that has over 120 s of cooldown I just forget about. I'd be fine with slightly decreased benefit too, so long as I can use it more and infinitely in a quest. I hate finite/per day charges.

[Unsmitten]

12 is not a splash class LOL it's almost the same requirement as Holy Sword, except that Holy Sword applies to lots of highly Optimal weapon choices while this applies to mostly highly non optimal weapons. If we wanted we could have Bow's only get it at 18...

What is rapidly happening is that we're returning to the bad old days when Pure was almost always clearly optimal a 2 splash was mistrusted but grudingly accepted in the few circumstances that it wasn't obvious why you'd do it, and anything more was grounds to be declined from groups by a considerable segment of the playerbase.

BTW I don't have a problem making the capstone more interesting because a 2 Arti splash is almost mandatory the way the cores work now.

IMO this tree is far too backloaded with almost nothing in the middle that offers interesting multlcassing... basically it's 18 Rogue 2 Arti or go home. MAYBE if you want to sacrifice significant DPS via Rune Arm imbues on your Great Xbow you take 1 or 2 Barb for run speed and some dodge (and sprint boost if you want to throw away AP's getting to it). There's also a Minor 2 Bard splash synergy for dodge, PRR from WC and sprint boost. But mostly the options are highly uninspiring, and the clear cut winner is probably 2 Artificer, especially if they get something nice in a third tree soon.

I don't see a compelling argument for why a sub optimal weapon improver shouldn't be 2 levels lower than a eSoS/TF falchion/Staff crit profile improvement. It's not lvl 3 like Bard so I just don't think someone objecting to it has a leg to stand on.

This is exactly how I see it, and is why I suggested moving the 18 to 12 and buffing great crossbows more with the 18. You forgot to mention that bards get massive crit profile boosts at LEVEL 3 on a wide array of weapons. The way the cores for Mechanic are now, they are terrible until 18.

Wow 5 extra SA/PBS range.

Sweet, a slightly better DC for what was a completely useless flask.

Oh hey, int to damage for 1 less enhancement point then I can get from Harper.

Woah, 50% more search range, as if we didn't already memorize where every trap in the game is.

Here we go, finally I've gone pure rogue and now I get some better crits, who needs to make heavy splashes anyways. I'll just make a Sunelf 18 Rogue 2 Monk, the best AA ever man. Turbines gonna make some serious dough from all the +5 Lesser Hearts. Hm, what ever happened to (great) crossbows being the focus?

[IronClan]

This is exactly how I see it, and is why I suggested moving the 18 to 12 and buffing great crossbows more with the 18. You forgot to mention that bards get massive crit profile boosts at LEVEL 3 on a wide array of weapons. The way the cores for Mechanic are now, they are terrible until 18.

Well actuallyI mentioned 3 Bard but I get that your "you forget" really is directed at the guy I quoted and not me.

Yeah right now I think the main reason to lower Expert builder to core 12 is so you can improve the Capstone to be something compelling enough to be a real choice over 2 Arti without it being even more backloaded with 18 and 20 cores.

In fact I'd like to see the Crit range split into core 6, move targeting sights to core three with tanglefoot, and put the multiplier improvements in at core 12. This would open multclassing potential, and a strong capstone would give a real reason to choose pure instead of Arti slam dunk.

If great xbows were better weapons I could see valuing expert builder 4 levels higher than Holy sword, but that is not remotely the case. In fact I think you could make the case for it being a T5

[Bobby88888]

^ Exactly this. Let Bows be the province of Rangers, thrown weapons: Assassin, and Repeaters/Crossbows: Mechanic.

Even with the nice Great Crossbow changes, I still think they need more oomph. They have to be devastating.

I agree with this too but I also think opening up the tree to bows allows for more diversity and flavour builds. In that line of thinking bows should be made to function with the various abilities but gain reduced or no benefit from some/all of the things that boost. Throwing weapons is a similar deal.
To me a mechanic would be making gadgets and tinkering with his gear to make it work better and xbows fit this perfectly, not so much throwers or bows.


Mechanic should get SA range increases not SA die, that starts to encroach on assassin territory and the Sniper theme kinda fails if you have to stand next to them to get your SA damage. The capstone SA damage is fine though ofc. all rogues do 'sneaky attacks' SA but Assassin is best at it which should be reflected in many more SA die than the others, sure 6 can count as many


Traps. Well firstly great to hear you are looking into them but it would be best imho if rather than creating hundreds of different traps make them scale off your level and int mod and or disable skill in terms of DC, duration, damage and possibly bonus effects. New trap types sounds really fun. Traps is a great system that feels like its being missed out on a bit.
Traps might trigger a little too fast now? maybe 1 sec set time, 1.5 or 2 sec arm time. CD reduction is great but letting you keep up more than 1 trap type.

Something more along the construct/trap lines might be cool in the tree but otherwise it looks like a great and interesting tree to play around in. Kinda want to go roll up a mech now

[HatsuharuZ]

I'm not impressed with the "Disable Construct" enhancement. Being able to daze constructs is something that most classes can't do, but... How about the ability to reduce their fortification on a failed fort save as well, or something like that? Dazing is the least valuable CC effect, while fortification reduction is very useful for a rogue.

[vengfarga]

After a Brazzilion years of mech'ing - it was my very 1st toon back when we only had MechI - I'm gonna keep playing one whatever the changes. However, I have more than a few concerns with this direction, albeit the right direction overall.

* Great Xbows could be buffed to be 11-20 x5 4D12 weapons and STILL no one would use them 90% of the time; their attack speed is so slow that you'd still be better off throwing lumps of coal. => Any buffs to Great Xbows are flavour rather than a buff to the tree. (Non-repeating xbows are in pretty much the same boat.)

* Even with 1 sec set times and 8 sec cool downs, elemental traps/grenades (and similar enhs) are underwhelming unless they do a LOT more damage; an average pure mech with 46-50 Int at cap, PBS, combat archery, 17+D6 of sneak attack, a good destiny, a Tier2 TF Xbow or Needle, Know the angles, etc. AND using IPS intelligently, would be better off just keeping that attack button pushed down rather than breaking off to lay a trap. As long as they are ineffectual in terms of DPS, they remain flavour for (again) 90% of the time.

* I have always rated Hip Flask and the extra heal and dodge components make it very good indeed - even if the cool down still sucks. One thought though - no pure mech gives a gnoll's sandal for +2 Dex ... making it all Int would be much nicer (though maybe too much.)

* The 'weak' ranged builds - pure rgr aa or dws, ranged kensai, rog mech and (to a lesser extent) arti - have been a long way behind on dmg for a long time. More than 10 ranged power is probably needed to redress the balance. Throwing some more into the 18 & 20 cores and the T5s would boost the tree without being exploitable by the ranged power builds.

* 80% returning is nice from an inventory pov - will it stack with Deneith returning and the like? Important to note though that this is an inv and quality of life improvement only - going down 1 floor on your airship to buy 21000 bolts once every few hours of play is not THAT much of a pita.

* Adding a ranged version to some of the Assassin enhs prior to killer would be a good indirect boost to pure mechs.

* Adding bows and thrown makes the tree more splashable - not sth I'm likely to do but in keeping with the DDO ethos so good idea.

* Move the light repeater proficiency to the first core - both ranged toons AND rogs have a tough enough time in the early levels without the ranged rog having to rely on crappy gear till level 6.

* Maybe an enh line to extend ranged sneak attack even further would fit the 'sniper' concept.

* A threat reduction line - like assassin & most casters would be nice and again, would fit with 'sniper'.

* 6AP for the top skill action boost is very expensive for sth so situational. I know any well built mech doesn't need it but thematically it feels like you should take it anyway; also, 1/1/1 would help the first life splash builds to afford it and => suck less.

* Pretty much every effective bow or thrown build is based around manyshot and/or 10k stars. Pretty much every effective xbow build is based around repeaters. Manyshot puts dbl shot on a timer, repeaters get reduced rates. Kinda makes dbl shot a bit rubbish compared to dbl strike. maybe this tree could have a line to improve it's % impact with repeaters and DWS could have an abilty to reduce the timer with manyshot? (code allowing ofc.)

* Very curious about new 'high level' traps!

* New 'fat' stacks of lootgen ammo would be awesome.

* How about giving mechs a pet? A Barbarian maybe? It would keep the aggro off us, we have the UMD to res them and it would save points in spot

More to follow no doubt but that's my first impressions.

[Propane]

Aw, forgot about that one in my previous post - the 5 additional meters are not enough to comfortably deal ranged sneak attack - this should be more like +3 meters / core

Amen - at least 3 per core... 10 per core would be fine... you have to NOT have agro to get sneak attack... xbows are not know for there fast rate of fire...

[Dreppo]

Just remember something that has bugged me for a while...

Awareness (WARPRIEST): +1/+2/+3 Listen, Search and Spot. Rank 3: +1 save vs traps.
Awareness (HARPER AGENT): +1/+2/+3 Listen, Search and Spot. Rank 3: +1 save vs traps.
Awareness (MECHANIC): +1/+2/+3 Listen, Search and Spot.

Note that the mechanic version does not get +1 save vs traps at rank 3. These enhancements all have the same name and so they don't stack with each other. They should all be brought into sync with each other. It makes no sense that the mechanic version would be weaker than the others. I could understand the mechanic version being stronger, but not weaker.

Of course if it's just an error in the description, then fix the description. Thank you.

[khattiya]

I would play this now and be happy.

Only contrary thought - I don't like to share my toys. I've been jealous of all the cool Arcane Archer enhancements that I can't use with crossbows for ever. I don't mind. They've got their weapon. I've got mine. Except now they get to play with my toys and I still don't get to play with theirs. Bows and thrown weapons seem out of place, but if they get added, I'm not going to complain about somebody else getting something shiny and new to play with. Mechanic makes me happy - I don't mind it making other people happy, too.

Just wondering - I'm not a big numbers guy, but I was expecting something like +1 ranged power per point spent in tree along the same lines as Arcanotechnician getting +1 Universal Spell Power. Too powerful? How about .5 ranged power per point spent in the tree? Like I said, numbers and I don't play well together, but I was expecting something along these lines. If someone could explain why this is a bad idea, at least I'd be learning something. I also kind of expected it would be a core toggle - select melee or ranged as your focus. I don't play melee as a general rule, but that's been part of the tree and I wouldn't want to short change anyone who plays their artificer as a melee.

No remote control? I've always wanted a remote control since running Blockade Buster. I don't want to drop a trap in the middle of a fight. I want to plant traps and blow stuff up from around a corner. Cue the noisemaker. Cue the deadly fire trap. Cue the second noisemaker. Cue the Hold person trap. Run in throwing fire grenades for a fiery finish. Or setting a series of noisemakers to lead the mobs out of one room and into and another and out of my way.

But, like I said, I wold play this now and be happy. Thanks.

[Orleano]

I dont know if you would be able to do it, but how about remotly controlled traps? It could be also awesome to see some higher level scrolls and maybe even making traps with combat scrolls or summoning... I mean rogues are all about versatility, no? Good to see shortbows getting its propper place, i always had a rogue with shortbow in my party in other D&D based games )

[CrackedIce]

I have two main thoughts here.

First I also can't help wonder whether the Crit ranged changes should be moved from core level 18 to core level 12 for the reasons stated above and replace it with 10 RP and add another 10 to capstone.

This is really from gut instanct rather than testing so I am really not sure.

Secondly, and more importantly, how do you guys envision the ranged part of mechanic to differentiate itself from Deepwood ranger? I know you have not made an enhancement pass to ranger yet, but these ranged changes should have the vision for how Deepwood is supposed to look in mind.

[slarden]

Note that the DC for elemental traps and spell traps will remain as they are on live, using a percentage of Disable Device and increased by Mechanic and Artificer talents.

By spell traps I assume you mean magical traps using level 1-3 spells? It is currently using the disable device skill as you state but is supposed to be 10 + spell level + int modifier which is obviously useless at epic levels.

Are you officially saying that magical traps using the disable device skill is WAI and will remain that way?

[Saekee]

Oh yeah and I know absolutely no ones said it yet <wink wink nudge nudge> but we need a few Named great crossbows...

Perferably ones that emphasize first number damage over affixes and 2% and 5% proc chances... The attack speed is abysmal, so it's going against the grain to make a bunch of great Xbows with lots of secondary elemental damage affixes like Shocking Burst and Cloud Burst and Lightning Strike. On crit effects on the other hand are fair game. On vorpal effects to take advantage of 19-20. Base damage and crit profile to make for heavy hitter first numbers.

Some ideas:

CarniFlex (drops in Deleras this is both a play on the much loved greataxe AND a play on how some people mispronounce the greataxe's name)
ML4
Keen
17-20 expanded base range X3 multiplier (end range with keen is 14-20)
Red slot

Yulthoon's Amorphous Scorpion
ML14
Normal stats
On all hits your Base damage is randomly considered to be 1d4 elemental, light, force, rust or negative, if purple damage is done that element/force/light/etc. is chosen for all subsequent attacks until normal, yellow or Green damage is done where it goes back to random.
On all critical hits the following effects are possible (percentage chosen based on whats best for balance):
Soundburst
Otto Dance Ball
Icestorm
Chain Lightning
Meteor strike
Phantasmal Killer
Earthquake
Summon fashionable Taken
Grease
Ham

Spinesplitter (bone look) Available via Tome of Ledend Turn ins.
ML16
X4
Seeker 10
Heartseeker
Red slot

Unwavering Ballista (Mark of Death raid) looks a little like an Unwavering ardency turned sideways
ML28
3[W]2d12
17-20 X3
Blinding embers, all crits proc an 8 second no save blind
Smoke screen

Great stuff!

Makes me think that the theme of ballista could be emphasized, such as some kind of effect on Archer's focus stacking--speed, amount, additional effects? And hey! One less reason to kite!