Rogue - Mechanic (and Traps) Proposed Changes

[Torvaldsberg]

Would it be possible to have mines self-activate at the end of 60 seconds if they are not tripped sooner?

Nothing worse than setting traps and then seeing that nothing passes quite close enough to trigger them.

It would also be nice(if possible) to have different timer lengths on noisemakers. Maybe one that goes off in 2 seconds, one for 5 seconds, etc. It could give some strategic options not currently available.

[ddorimble]

But at the moment I'm thinking of an Elf/HElf AA Mechanic and staying pure for that.

I think if limiting the discussion to pure Rogue, I'd still prefer Assassin capstone, but take Tier 5 Mechanic.

I have better things to use my Action Boosts on, so I'm really only seriously considering the Passive benefits.

They should consider just putting it on a cooldown and not making it an Action Boost, like Uncanny Dodge et al.

[ddorimble]

My concern is that with this huge package bonus @18, there will only be 3 species of mechanic going forward:
20 rogue
18 rogue/2 arti
6 rogue/14 pal

Well, arguably, Artificer updates may disrupt that. It's hard to say when these class changes come slowly one at a time. Can't really get a big picture of anything.

[Unsmitten]

I like the overall tone of the changes, a big fan of more than one weapon choice for mechanics and making the ranged rogue.

But how about a doubleshot bonus for bows to go along with the speed bonuses you are giving to every other weapon

And why do non repeaters get a + 2 bonus and not every other non repeating weapon like bows and throwing weapons.

also hip flask will the to hit and damage portions of that be expanded like with sharpshooter to other ranged weapons

The tree already gives 10% doubleshot with it's t5 Rapid Fire. You just need to realize that they only posted changes they plan to make. The stuff they didn't change, they didn't post.

[Oxarhamar]

Well, arguably, Artificer updates may disrupt that. It's hard to say when these class changes come slowly one at a time. Can't really get a big picture of anything.

Yeah I see many more possible Mechanic builds that just those 3 listed.

[General_Gronker]

[*]Tanglefoot: Acid Damage scales with 200% Ranged Power. Both DCs are now 10 + Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier.

This should be bonus effect to the Tanglefoot Bag that you should be adding with the alchemical vendors that you should be adding to the game. What am I talking about?

Tanglefoot Bag
When you throw a tanglefoot bag at a creature (as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet), the bag comes apart and the goo bursts out, entangling the target and then becoming tough and resilient upon exposure to air. An entangled creature takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to Dexterity and must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be glued to the floor, unable to move. Even on a successful save, it can move only at half speed. Huge or larger creatures are unaffected by a tanglefoot bag. A flying creature is not stuck to the floor, but it must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be unable to fly (assuming it uses its wings to fly) and fall to the ground. A tanglefoot bag does not function underwater.

A creature that is glued to the floor (or unable to fly) can break free by making a DC 17 Strength check or by dealing 15 points of damage to the goo with a slashing weapon. A creature trying to scrape goo off itself, or another creature assisting, does not need to make an attack roll; hitting the goo is automatic, after which the creature that hit makes a damage roll to see how much of the goo was scraped off. Once free, the creature can move (including flying) at half speed. A character capable of spellcasting who is bound by the goo must make a DC 15 Concentration check to cast a spell. The goo becomes brittle and fragile after 2d4 rounds, cracking apart and losing its effectiveness. An application of universal solvent to a stuck creature dissolves the alchemical goo immediately.

A Tanglefoot Bag is 50 gp, weighs 4 pounds, and is something any character should be able buy from the appropriate vendor. It SHOULD NOT be an exclusive class-based ability. So the Mechanic ability should add effects to the standard bag, not be the standard bag.

[*]Thunderstone: The damage scales with 200% Ranged Power. The DC is now 12/16/20 + Rogue Level + Intelligence bonus.

As with Tanglefoot, this should be bonus to the standard Thunderstone which you should be able to purchase from the appropriate alchemical vendor:

Thunderstone
You can throw this stone as a ranged attack with a range increment of 20 feet. When it strikes a hard surface (or is struck hard), it creates a deafening bang that is treated as a sonic attack. Each creature within a 10-foot-radius spread must make a DC 15 Fortitude save or be deafened for 1 hour. A deafened creature, in addition to the obvious effects, takes a -4 penalty on initiative and has a 20% chance to miscast and lose any spell with a verbal component that it tries to cast.

Since you don’t need to hit a specific target, you can simply aim at a particular 5-foot square. Treat the target square as AC 5.

A Thunderstone is 30 gp, 1 pound, and supposed to be available in shops. So again, this should add oomph to the standard item, not be the only source of the Thunderstone.

Please stop trying to make special things out of the stuff that you are literally supposed to be able to just go buy in a shop in a decent sized town. Tanglefoot bags and Thunderstones are expensive but fairly common, mundane items, NOT special abilities that should require precious enhancements.

More important than those things, however is one simple thing I get from looking at this:

There is a lot of Crossbow stuff. There is not a lot of Mechanic stuff. That seems wrong for something called a Mechanic. What you are presenting here should be called Arbalist. Remove the trap and construct stuff, add more Crossbow stuff, and make it a general tree, like Harper.

Then make an actual Mechanic tree that has the trap construction, construct wracking and the like but includes other important effects like finding and disarming traps in a reduced amount of time. Like you can find traps 10%/20%/30% more quickly, and you can disarm traps 10%/20%/30% more quickly.

Because this isn't a Mechanic tree, this is a crossbowman's tree.

[ArkoHighStar]

The tree already gives 10% doubleshot with it's t5 Rapid Fire. You just need to realize that they only posted changes they plan to make. The stuff they didn't change, they didn't post.

then why do bows not get a speed bonus, they give it everything else.

[UurlockYgmeov]

~ The flavor we wanted for Mechanic is to be a saboteur and sniper.
~ We don't want them to be an Artificer light, so we don't want to just import Artificer stuff into the tree.
~ Runearms will stay exclusive to Artificers.

We had a long discussion of conjured bolts versus Fletching on the player council forums. Some points:

~ If you really want to conjure bolts you have UMD and scrolls.
~ Conjuration spells really isn't in flavor for rogues.
~ Fletching will really shine when we have more powerful crafted ammunition with updated crafting systems, and will be also be really good if we put more powerful ammunition on special vendors.

As an aside I like the idea of making ammunition found in treasure to drop with an increased stack size. I can't promise that for Update 25 however.

Sev~

I like (generally) what I see. Am concerned about DC's scaling into epics AND non-intelligence build trappers finding this tree useful. Also - having everything scale with ONLY ranged power - well - shouldn't it be whichever is higher (MP vs RP)?

Finally - damage from traps - this is an inventory nightmare - having to have how many different level traps? Why not streamline and simplify (aka KISS) and just have the DC and damage scale to the character setting the trap? Just one trap level (base). Have the Damage and DC scale based upon Character Level and Disable Device Skill (which already factors in INT score)

[Caprice]

I think if limiting the discussion to pure Rogue, I'd still prefer Assassin capstone, but take Tier 5 Mechanic.

I have better things to use my Action Boosts on, so I'm really only seriously considering the Passive benefits.

They should consider just putting it on a cooldown and not making it an Action Boost, like Uncanny Dodge et al.

I thought about things a bit more and I think I agree that the 18/2 version is strictly better for a repeating crossbow user. I edited my response based on that.

Taking the Assassin capstone plus just the ranged Mechanic Tier 5s and the level 18 Core means you've already spent at least 76 AP of your 80, which means you cannot afford Know the Angles. With an INT that's probably 60+, that's sacrificing a guaranteed 12 points of damage a hit - roughly the same as the Assassin capstone gives back in Sneak Attack Damage, which isn't guaranteed. I'd rather stop at Killer (23 AP) or Vorpal SAs core (31 AP) in Assassin, throw the ~5 AP more into Mechanic, and have some left over to spend in Harper on Ranged Power since that's so hard to come by otherwise.

But I had overlooked that it is an Action Boost. I guess that's designed to keep us from triple stacking damage effects, but I agree that makes it very undesirable. Hmm. Dangit, I may have to agree after all! ;-)

[Severlin]

Finally - damage from traps - this is an inventory nightmare - having to have how many different level traps? Why not streamline and simplify (aka KISS) and just have the DC and damage scale to the character setting the trap? Just one trap level (base). Have the Damage and DC scale based upon Character Level and Disable Device Skill (which already factors in INT score)

Several reasons:
~ We want the design space to be able to acquire new traps as a reward.
~ We like the feel of traps being self contained as much as possible.
~ There is no tech to carry character stats onto traps - the Mechanic enhancement is hand scripted special case.
~ Changes to this trap system also touch the system for regular dungeon traps so any mistake in hand scripting can affect the damage of all traps in dungeons.

Sev~

[Cynick]

Noisemaker traps are rendered useless by the change to trap timings.

By the time the trap activates and attracts the nearby mobs, you'll likely still be so close it will spot you as well.

If your Hide and MS skills are high enough to avoid this, then you wont be using a noisemaker anyway, just sneak past.

[Silverleafeon]

~ The flavor we wanted for Mechanic is to be a saboteur and sniper.

I likie.

~ We don't want them to be an Artificer light, so we don't want to just import Artificer stuff into the tree.

Very good, its important to make each class unique as possible.

~ Runearms will stay exclusive to Artificers.

The only way I can see Rune Arm feat granted is as an inate in the upcoming Artificer tree. Just like turn undead, bard songs, lay on hands, etc are granted in thus manner.

We had a long discussion of conjured bolts versus Fletching on the player council forums. Some points:

Good job and good lucki PC of 2015!

~ If you really want to conjure bolts you have UMD and scrolls.

Seen this done already, thank you for fixing that scroll usage.

~ Conjuration spells really isn't in flavor for rogues.

Agreed

~ Fletching will really shine when we have more powerful crafted ammunition with updated crafting systems, and will be also be really good if we put more powerful ammunition on special vendors.

Please do.

Hey how about that adding it to the Purple Dragon Knight Vendor (possibly for higher favor) and House D favor vendor?

As an aside I like the idea of making ammunition found in treasure to drop with an increased stack size. I can't promise that for Update 25 however.

Sev~

Please do, make amount of drop 500ish arrow/bolts/thrower instead of the lame 20ish.
Or how about {50 units * treasure level} ?

Scroll could be increased as well such as {1d6 units * treasure level} ?



Dropped consumables are all so lame, except for potions.
Wands are mostly worthless so quickly due to low caster levels, etc...

[UurlockYgmeov]

Could not resist this one, although not original:

:P

Leomund's Secure Shelter for the win!

[jaggyjag]

Bravo!

I like the proposed tree, there isn't any I would changed, not one thing.

I've been through the wilderness so to speak, in that I have had a active Mechanic character/s since it was available. It has been rough and sometimes even unrewarding, watching our traps have so little effect and watching our role usurped by so many splashes that all we were left with was the ability to to do less DPS and pray for a construct to show up.

But this tree is well worth the wait, and it is properly weighted to encourage players to take large levels of Mechanic and rewards them for that choice.

I was a bit put off about the capstone, but looking it could be great fun, I was also a bit surprised by the inclusion of Bows, but you know what? I can already see some great flavor opportunities and some cool meta-game builds.

Sev, this is excellent, so much so that you could drop it live today.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Hey how about that adding it to the Purple Dragon Knight Vendor (possibly for higher favor) and House D favor vendor?



Please do, make amount of drop 500ish instead of the lame 20ish.
Or how about {50 units * treasure level} ?


Dropped consumables are all so lame, except for potions.
Wands are mostly worthless so quickly due to low caster levels, etc...

would be nice - but if cannith crafting gets a pass - then not as necessary.

the 20 each bolt/arrow is really dated now.

yep - those haste lv5 potions that drop in EE lv30 content (and the protection pots) as well. Why not some wand of shield (or nightshield) lv20? :P

[jaggyjag]

Mechanics will still have the ability to add intelligence bonuses to ranged and thrown damage? yes? no?

[Caprice]

Mechanics will still have the ability to add intelligence bonuses to ranged and thrown damage? yes? no?

Currently it is just crossbows and thrown, isn't it? Or is it working on other ranged weapons too?

[UurlockYgmeov]

Several reasons:
~ We want the design space to be able to acquire new traps as a reward.
~ We like the feel of traps being self contained as much as possible.
~ There is no tech to carry character stats onto traps - the Mechanic enhancement is hand scripted special case.
~ Changes to this trap system also touch the system for regular dungeon traps so any mistake in hand scripting can affect the damage of all traps in dungeons.

Sev~

thank you for the reply.

streamline the levels of traps just into one base model. can (and should) have many models. still self contained - just instead of weak, small, average, large, deadly, noisemaker there is just one base model of each type of trap(Mechanical, Fire, Electric, Acid, Cold, Sonic, Force, Unholy, Holy plus noisemaker). Thus when it is crafted (or rather when it is set) the damage and DC would be scaled according to the character setting it.

The Damage would be level scaled by disable device skill used like spell or melee power. The DC would be set normally. No stats are figured into it, unless you are referring to stats in the generic sense rather than the ability stat sense.


Love the idea of acquiring new trap (models/styles) as reward! kudos! Yes, please do include Spell wards that should be able to be set by Mechanics and or Archmagi!

I understand the idea of self contained traps - but since in practicality 99% of traps are used by the character that made them. But if you want to self contain them - then use a base model and have it

And yes, hand scripting. It is what makes this game so unique - and so hard to update. I understand the lack of desire to tackle ten year old spaghetti code, but streamlining this would make going forward so much easier. Maybe schedule a full trap pass for '16?

[Silverleafeon]

Several reasons:
~ We want the design space to be able to acquire new traps as a reward.

OK

~ We like the feel of traps being self contained as much as possible.

Nods less chance of shadow bugs.

~ There is no tech to carry character stats onto traps - the Mechanic enhancement is hand scripted special case.

Nods

~ Changes to this trap system also touch the system for regular dungeon traps so any mistake in hand scripting can affect the damage of all traps in dungeons.

Sev~

Definitely merited on last point.

I would like to say, thanks for communicating.

We fear what we do not understand...

[flagged]

I am a little concerned about the lack of increases in "Ranged power" in the proposal.

Something along the lines of what the harper tree can provide, or the Fighting lines provide to players using THF, or SWF.