Rogue - Mechanic (and Traps) Proposed Changes

[IronClan]

Siege engineer T5 2/4/6 AP:
2AP: You gain greater benefit from careful positioning and consideration of shots than others, Archers focus effect count as 1.5% per stack instead of 1%. 4AP: Archers Focus stacks to 20 6AP: Archers focus is 2% per stack and Stacks to 30, in addition if you have Ballistics Expert your sneak attack range is no longer limited. (requires Archers focus)

Ballistics expert T4: Your Sneak attack range is doubled as long as the attack would normally qualify as a sneak attack

Enfilade T2: Shots fired at Flanked opponents gain an additional X1 multiplier, shots fired at the backs of opponents gain X2.

Sapper T1: 2AP: When at full archers focus you bypass 100% of fortification, 4AP: in addition when damage traps are set while sneaking and with no aggro they gain your Hide and Move silently skill as Universal Spellpower, and your CC traps gain +3 to DC's.

[flagged]

Sev? any chance you could give a answer to this? trying to plan out some lives so am ready to Mech it up!

Otherwise if not till UPdate 26, may stick with Pally stuff.

Even a guess would be appreciated.

[Failedlegend]

Siege engineer T5 2/4/6 AP:
2AP: You gain greater benefit from careful positioning and consideration of shots than others, Archers focus effect count as 1.5% per stack instead of 1%. 4AP: Archers Focus stacks to 20 6AP: Archers focus is 2% per stack and Stacks to 30, in addition if you have Ballistics Expert your sneak attack range is no longer limited. (requires Archers focus)

I LOATHE Archer's Focus, whats the point of have an active combat system if the devs keep pushing abilties that force us to stand still...the ability to move around and use positioning and the environment to your advantage is one of my main reasons for loving this game.

So no I would rather not have Mechanic become what amounts to a mounted Turret.

[Delacroix21]

Can we get a Dev update on the following issues that have been brought up?

1. Increase ranged sneak attack distance
2. Add ranged attack power to crossbows and greatcross bows when equipped to up their damage (will also up sneak attack damage with great crossbows to make up for slower attack speed there as well)
3. Add a ranged assassins trick, or allow great crossbows to bypass fortification and sneak attack immunity as a tier 5.


Preety please?

[Oxarhamar]

I LOATHE Archer's Focus, whats the point of have an active combat system if the devs keep pushing abilties that force us to stand still...the ability to move around and use positioning and the environment to your advantage is one of my main reasons for loving this game.

So no I would rather not have Mechanic become what amounts to a mounted Turret.

I dunno I find Achers Focus quite wonderful situationally on my full repeater Arti Hybrid.

The stacking damage is very nice & it doesn't take that long to stack up. Any time there is a single target boss mini/boss etc... I'm using it.

In a party I might just lay off a bit until Agro is established on another player so I can stand still and lay down some heavy fire. Solo I still use it for anything that I can just self heal face tank w/deception.

Moving doesn't remove the stacks to zero just stops them from building up more so you can stack it up, move, stack it up, move if needed.

I often Blitz with Achers Focus in Deathwyrm end fight standing on the mount and clearing the trash rapidly but, one by one targeting the Deathlords first. While the rest of the party deals with the Phylactry.

[Myrddinman]

Hey Sev! Can we get a "Create Ballista" enhancement...similar to Artificer's "Flame Turret"? Or perhaps something like the Haunted Halls Gatling Crossbows, with a mechanized Kobold to operate it?

I'm actually half serious

[Pieter-Bas]

Sev are you still there reading this?


The balance issue between crossbows and melee is that meele attacks almost 3 times as much in the same amount of time. Adding 1 extra crit multi (when compared to other trees thats all it is) will in NO WAY close the gap on the damage of meele, especially when augment/thunderforge procs hit so hard and so much more often. You either need to add a massive amount of doubleshot to crossbows to make them viable (as I dont see how you could possibly increase the speed enough unless you get rid of reloading entirely), or we can go another route!


Why dont we try something unique here= Crossbows are slow but deal MASSIVE damage.


The way you could do this easily is=
Increase ranged attack power by 100 when a great crossbow or regular crossbow is equipped (slow but hits like a truck!)
Increase ranged attack power by 25 when a repeating crossbow is equipped. (fast with a needed added damage boost to catch up to manyshot/10k stars)

I like this as well but... Having played a Mechanic Repeater build for some time, I feel that repeaters are very much the way a mechanic rogue would go... it seems right for the style. Rogues depend on stealth but also on speed, right? Not on strength? So a slow cumbersome weapon seems wrong. But in epic content, they just don't do enough damage... Combine that with the reload issues and the fact that many enemies are immune to bluff/poison/sneak that rogues depend on (Undead especially are a problem at epic level) and I feel repeater builds need some more love

[Cordovan]

Just to make sure folks know: We expect the Rogue Mechanic changes to be in Update 25.

[Delacroix21]

I like this as well but... Having played a Mechanic Repeater build for some time, I feel that repeaters are very much the way a mechanic rogue would go... it seems right for the style. Rogues depend on stealth but also on speed, right? Not on strength? So a slow cumbersome weapon seems wrong. But in epic content, they just don't do enough damage... Combine that with the reload issues and the fact that many enemies are immune to bluff/poison/sneak that rogues depend on (Undead especially are a problem at epic level) and I feel repeater builds need some more love

I get where you are coming from, as currently on live a repeater far outclasses a bow/crossbow when it comes to proccing sneak attack.


However...


This would be a great oppertunity to add a whole new combat style to ddo (slow enormous hits) and thats why I wanted great crossbows to get 100 ranged power when equiped, it would double their base damage, and double their sneak attack damage. Sounds like a lot but repeaters attack more than twice as fast per minute, and so also proc more then double the sneak attacks, yet they should also get +25 ranged power as they are lagging behind bows to much due to no manyshot/10k stars. I WANT to see a repeater tree, but I think they should do that during the arty pass.

[Delacroix21]

Just to make sure folks know: We expect the Rogue Mechanic changes to be in Update 25.

Have any changes been made to the tree based on feedback here?

[Wh070aa]

Just to make sure folks know: We expect the Rogue Mechanic changes to be in Update 25.

This seems to be rushed.Please test to see if it actually works, before pushing it out.
Also the tree is less desirable than DWS. Traps and trowables are non functioning (DC ain't working for anything but web traps, and even then, not really).
Well at least thanks for damage increase on Bard/artificer/rouge builds, since that's the only way you can actually do ranged damage and "assassinations", or trow stun grenades, that somewhat work. Better low splash than Battle Engineer.

[Seikojin]

Cordovan, can you get Sev to update the OP with the latest changes and issues? Thanks for the updated info on release timing.

[flagged]

Just to make sure folks know: We expect the Rogue Mechanic changes to be in Update 25.

Yes! yes!

[nat_1]

I am uncomfortable with what I'm about to say, but only because I thought the Bard and Paladin pass put them too far ahead of other classes so now I have to advocate a bigger push for Mechanic than I would have if the Rogue pass had come first.

I'm going to equate Expert Builder: You gain a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range and Critical Multiplier for bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Critical Multiplier increases to +2 for great crossbows. with Swashbuckling, Kensai, and Holy Sword.

Swashbuckling is available at level 3, and has restrictions on the set of weapons you can use and limits you to light armor.
Kensei is available at level 12, is restricted to your chosen weapon set, and is a T5, locking out all other T5's.
Holy Sword is available at level 14, and has no restrictions on weapon set, armor, or cost in enhancements. It's only competition is Zeal for a spellslot.

Expert Builder has a weapon selection comparable to most of the Kensei groups (although even that forces you to choose bows or crossbows).

Compared to the new normal of Swashbuckling and Holy Sword level 18 is too high for Expert Builder. Because if I want to make a Great Crossbow user I would take 15 Pally/5 Rogue and get Tier 5 Mechanic with Holy Sword, better saves, and healing. For a thrower I can take 3 Bard/5 Rogue, then take more Bard for spells.

It's the unfortunate case that if I think of a pure or at least 18 Rogue build I can think of a better one that instead uses some Paladin or Bard with some Rogue added. Somebody said Paladin is bacon right now, and I think Bard is too. You can either eat bacon by itself and it's awesome or you can put it on something else and make that something more awesome than it was.

Move Expert Builder to 6 or at least 12 so Mechanic can be bacon too. Don't let it be salad.

Edit: Also, can Mechanic please have Action Boost: Doubleshot? That's a bit of love that needs to be pried out of just the Swashbuckler tree and spread around.

[Unsmitten]

I am uncomfortable with what I'm about to say, but only because I thought the Bard and Paladin pass put them too far ahead of other classes so now I have to advocate a bigger push for Mechanic than I would have if the Rogue pass had come first.

I'm going to equate Expert Builder: You gain a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range and Critical Multiplier for bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Critical Multiplier increases to +2 for great crossbows. with Swashbuckling, Kensai, and Holy Sword.

Swashbuckling is available at level 3, and has restrictions on the set of weapons you can use and limits you to light armor.
Kensei is available at level 12, is restricted to your chosen weapon set, and is a T5, locking out all other T5's.
Holy Sword is available at level 14, and has no restrictions on weapon set, armor, or cost in enhancements. It's only competition is Zeal for a spellslot.

Expert Builder has a weapon selection comparable to most of the Kensei groups (although even that forces you to choose bows or crossbows).

Compared to the new normal of Swashbuckling and Holy Sword level 18 is too high for Expert Builder. Because if I want to make a Great Crossbow user I would take 15 Pally/5 Rogue and get Tier 5 Mechanic with Holy Sword, better saves, and healing. For a thrower I can take 3 Bard/5 Rogue, then take more Bard for spells.

It's the unfortunate case that if I think of a pure or at least 18 Rogue build I can think of a better one that instead uses some Paladin or Bard with some Rogue added. Somebody said Paladin is bacon right now, and I think Bard is too. You can either eat bacon by itself and it's awesome or you can put it on something else and make that something more awesome than it was.

Move Expert Builder to 6 or at least 12 so Mechanic can be bacon too. Don't let it be salad.

Edit: Also, can Mechanic please have Action Boost: Doubleshot? That's a bit of love that needs to be pried out of just the Swashbuckler tree and spread around.

Thank you, this essentially what i've been asking for too. I would either like the crit boost at core 12 or as a t5. Giving a doubleshot action boost as a multi-selector with skill boost would fit great.

Good suggestions!

[IronClan]

I LOATHE Archer's Focus, whats the point of have an active combat system if the devs keep pushing abilties that force us to stand still...the ability to move around and use positioning and the environment to your advantage is one of my main reasons for loving this game.

So no I would rather not have Mechanic become what amounts to a mounted Turret.

Almost all sniper mechanics in all games that feature the ability to cause massive damage in very few shots, are counter balanced by lowering the mobility of the sniper, by using aiming or zoom (which always includes a slowdown) mechanics or requiring steath to be maintained to get full "one shot one kill" potential. the same thing that archers focus is intended to simulate (aiming). The problem is archers focus is far too subtle and minor (it's the equivalent of 15 ranged power or 15 damage for every 100 you deal, or 150 damage on a hypothetical 1000 point crit. So in other words it's no where near enough to entice people to use it.

Now if you double Archers focus and allow it to stack to 30, you get the equivalent of 60 Ranged power from it, or 160 damage or 1600 crit, still not enough to really get players to think about tactical positioning and pre-positioning granted, but enough to entice them to include "aiming" in their playstyle.

BTW what you loath may actually be a fun thing for someone else, bringing subjective feelings into a discussion is non productive... the fact is that there's very few alternatives offered to moving constantly at break neck speed in DDO, and there are absolutely ZERO for ranged builds, because a full stack of archers focus is a completely trivial incentive. Now what if we had a ranged stealthy sniper mechanic? You would loath that... okay, but lots of people play stealthy snipers in other games and do not loath that. How do we open up a new play style and allow it to be viable?

If we want to put a new playstyle into the game that involves tactical positioning and thinking ahead about where you want to be for best firing position when the raid or boss fight starts, we need things to be significantly more impactful. X1 on a flanking shot or X2 on a rear firing position help with that and combined with a 60% damage increase from full archers focus I think we'd be close. But we still aren't rewarding "tactical movement" (stealth) so add:


Shoot and Scoot T1 1ap
Passive when sneaking you do not lose archers focus stacks (but you do not charge it up either)
Clickie Performs an Active attack while in sneak mode with +1[W] for every 2 stacks of archers focus you have, 20 second cooldown (+15[W] is max possible with my previous suggestion of allowing 30 stacks 30 stacks takes a LOT of investment in moving only stealthed, and allowing it to build while not moving).

[ddorimble]

Compared to the new normal of Swashbuckling and Holy Sword level 18 is too high for Expert Builder. Because if I want to make a Great Crossbow user I would take 15 Pally/5 Rogue and get Tier 5 Mechanic with Holy Sword, better saves, and healing.

Yeah but you'd end up at 17-20/x3 instead of 17-20/x4. Ultimately, depending how you go, for each of those builds you can take your crit range to 11-20 or so I think...so 11-20/x3 vs 11-20/x4...seems like a pretty big deal to me.

[IronClan]

Just to make sure folks know: We expect the Rogue Mechanic changes to be in Update 25.

IMO this is a bad idea... it already feels like this tree is getting short shifted due to time and arriving late here and late to lam.

At the very least there's a CLEAR consensus that the cores need to be reworked and that Expert builder is very poorly placed at 18, 4 levels higher than a Paladin can get Holy Sword effecting MUCH more optimal range of weaponry, and with swashbuckler being a level 3 core which also frankly effects a much more interesting range of weapons (because there's zero named crossbows worth noting, while Brushhook, Skullsmasher, Balizard and many other kick ass swash weapons were sitting there wating to be uplifted to viability, no such weapons exist for Expert builder outside of Longbows of course)

[FestusHood]

I was thinking that since one of the main appeals of great crossbows is their very large base damage dice, maybe could add a shot that does + 10(w) to work as a sort of sniper shot. It could be in the same vein as Slaughter from the barbarian trees, not spammable, but not on an extremely long cooldown either.

[Failedlegend]

Almost all sniper mechanics in all games

I( don't care about other games, this is DDO and in DDO one of it's coolest traits isthe ability to move around and use positioning and the environment to your advantage.

bringing subjective feelings into a discussion is non productive

EVERYTHING in this thread is subjective, everyone has differing ideas and opinions, this isn't a stock meeting it's a discussion on what people think need to be done to make the class fun...that's entirely subjective whether your make a chart or not.

My OPINION is that making a player stand in one spot firing is alot less fun that being able to freely move around and I'm tired of all the enhancements that say "sit and wait X seconds" ,"don't move gain x", etc.

I quite like the idea of mechanic right now as a saboteur and amateur tinkerer and I don't want it to become boring. (not that I'm saying mech is good, I just like the "idea" their going for)