Rogue - Mechanic (and Traps) Proposed Changes

[Delacroix21]

Sev are you still there reading this?


The balance issue between crossbows and melee is that meele attacks almost 3 times as much in the same amount of time. Adding 1 extra crit multi (when compared to other trees thats all it is) will in NO WAY close the gap on the damage of meele, especially when augment/thunderforge procs hit so hard and so much more often. You either need to add a massive amount of doubleshot to crossbows to make them viable (as I dont see how you could possibly increase the speed enough unless you get rid of reloading entirely), or we can go another route!


Why dont we try something unique here= Crossbows are slow but deal MASSIVE damage.


The way you could do this easily is=
Increase ranged attack power by 100 when a great crossbow or regular crossbow is equipped (slow but hits like a truck!)
Increase ranged attack power by 25 when a repeating crossbow is equipped. (fast with a needed added damage boost to catch up to manyshot/10k stars)

[Oxarhamar]

Sev are you still there reading this?


The balance issue between crossbows and melee is that meele attacks almost 3 times as much in the same amount of time. Adding 1 extra crit multi (when compared to other trees thats all it is) will in NO WAY close the gap on the damage of meele, especially when augment/thunderforge procs hit so hard and so much more often. You either need to add a massive amount of doubleshot to crossbows to make them viable (as I dont see how you could possibly increase the speed enough unless you get rid of reloading entirely), or we can go another route!


Why dont we try something unique here= Crossbows are slow but deal MASSIVE damage.


The way you could do this easily is=
Increase ranged attack power by 100 when a great crossbow or regular crossbow is equipped (slow but hits like a truck!)
Increase ranged attack power by 25 when a repeating crossbow is equipped. (fast with a needed added damage boost to catch up to manyshot/10k stars)

I like these ideas

[HastyPudding]

I like these ideas

Me, too, I suggested it a few pages back. Let's brainstorm.

- Do away with the reload speed enhancement for all ranged weapons. Instead give +1 critical threat range to repeaters, bows, and thrown weapons, and +1 critical threat range and +1 critical damage multiplier for non-repeating crossbows. Dumb down the Expert Builder core ability to only give +1 critical multiplier to great crossbows, like the other ranged weapons, but add a +2 great crossbow multiplier to the capstone. That's a 16-20 / x6 great crossbow without feats or other enhancements, with a slow enough attack speed to not make it overpowering. Add in the great crossbow's already massive base damage rating (highest in the game of any weapon), and it should be interesting. All about the base, no treble.

- Add to the cores: Your Point Blank Shot and Ranged Sneak Attack range is increased by 5 meters for each rogue mechanic core ability you possess. They DO NOT get the deepwood stalker capstone, but they do get a +30 meter bonus on point blank range and sneak attacks. This will help any ranged build, but really benefit those pure rogue mechanics aiming for high sneak attack damage and great crossbow damage.

[Zephyrelli]

Why dont we try something unique here= Crossbows are slow but deal MASSIVE damage.

I don't think Dirty Harry carried a .44 magnum for dps; rather something to do with blowing your head clean off!

Perhaps they could add Head Shot (or an equivalent) as found in the DWS tree.

BTW, I saw some discussion regarding "vorpal" added to great xbows on a 19-20, but didn't see a clarification. Does this mean they insta-kill <1000hp or 100 dmg like the prefix on other weapons?

[Zephyrelli]

~ The flavor we wanted for Mechanic is to be a saboteur and sniper.

Sev~

Some more replies:

~ No plans for a ranged Assassinate.

Sev~

Maybe something got lost in the translation, but...

doesn't "sniper = ranged assassin" ?

What else are we doing here? Sending up flares? Shooting apples off kids heads?

Not that I've ever looked at my mechanic in those terms before until this thread.


That said, I do like much that the devs are proposing, and the discussion on this thread has been enlightening.

[Delacroix21]

I would rather them have a huge base damage then a chance to proc big damage.


The problem is the greatcross bow only synergizes with fury of the wild. It's attacks are too slow for Shiradi and to slow for the extra 6d6 sneak attack from shadow dancer to matter, and it's also to slow to keep up masters blitz. They are really pigeon holed.


I know that 100 ranged power sounds like a lot, but the gap between greatcross bows and meele is huge.

[Ayseifn]

I would rather them have a huge base damage then a chance to proc big damage.


The problem is the greatcross bow only synergizes with fury of the wild. It's attacks are too slow for Shiradi and to slow for the extra 6d6 sneak attack from shadow dancer to matter, and it's also to slow to keep up masters blitz. They are really pigeon holed.


I know that 100 ranged power sounds like a lot, but the gap between greatcross bows and meele is huge.

From the release notes:

Each Epic level from 21 to 28 now increases Ranged Power by three.
Fatesinger, Shadowdancer, Primal Avatar and Shiradi Champion gain +4 Ranged Power per innate ability.
Grandmaster of Flowers and Legendary Dreadnaught gain +3 Ranged Power per innate ability.
Divine Crusader and Unyielding Sentinel gain +2 Ranged Power per innate ability.
Fury of the Wild gains +1 Ranged Power per innate ability.

[Delacroix21]

And what's your point? Do you honestly think the extra ranged power in shiradi will do as much dps as fury of the wild using a slow great crossbow?


I am not sure why you posted this.

[Ayseifn]

And what's your point? Do you honestly think the extra ranged power in shiradi will do as much dps as fury of the wild using a slow great crossbow?


I am not sure why you posted this.

Even as a monk archer I had issues getting enough adrenalines and it was a playstyle choice as to whether Fury was better than LD. With the even slower shots from crossbows and extra ranged power in LD I'd just go there every time on an xbow user.

Still trying to get lamannia updated to test things though, maybe the vorpal on 19-20 is enough to cover for the low attack speed.

[Unsmitten]

Even as a monk archer I had issues getting enough adrenalines and it was a playstyle choice as to whether Fury was better than LD. With the even slower shots from crossbows and extra ranged power in LD I'd just go there every time on an xbow user.

Still trying to get lamannia updated to test things though, maybe the vorpal on 19-20 is enough to cover for the low attack speed.

Just to clarify about the vorpal on great crossbows. It is not an instakill vorpal, it is a knockdown on vorpal. That and the tree will give great xbow vorpal hits on rolls of 19 and 20 like the pswf epic feat.

Thanks, Zephyrelli, for posting those quotes. That is what i was going to post for someone saying mechanics are "only trappers, not snipers."

[Saekee]

What we essentially want is not a sniper, it's ARTILLERY!

Stationary, hard-hitting. Build on that concept?

Also please have wand and scroll mastery be faster as part of its upgrade--or even decrease the cooldown to use the scroll again.

[Pehtis]

For those of us that might want to try something different one day. Do these changes make regular crossbows (even with 40% speed) useful? I have not gone through every page so not sure if it's been discussed.

What would it take to make normal crossbow a viable choice, if the changes fail to adequately deal with them.

[Unsmitten]

For those of us that might want to try something different one day. Do these changes make regular crossbows (even with 40% speed) useful? I have not gone through every page so not sure if it's been discussed.

What would it take to make normal crossbow a viable choice, if the changes fail to adequately deal with them.

The way D&D is, regular crossbows would be considered starting weapons. You would graduate to using a great crossbow. Thus having regular crossbows is less important then having a wide array of mid through end game great crossbows. That, however, doesn't mean regular crossbows should be ignored. Just that great crossbows need to be by and large, better.

[HastyPudding]

The way D&D is, regular crossbows would be considered starting weapons. You would graduate to using a great crossbow. Thus having regular crossbows is less important then having a wide array of mid through end game great crossbows. That, however, doesn't mean regular crossbows should be ignored. Just that great crossbows need to be by and large, better.

Right.

Short bows and crossbows were 'starter weapons', then you'd graduate to longbows, great crossbows, and repeaters, if you wanted to be more specialized. Classes like fighters, rangers, and rogues usually had ranged weapons on hand for when the situation arose. Even wizards had a light crossbow in their pack, in the event that they ran out of spells.

We definitely need more named great crossbows (and repeaters).

[Zephyrelli]

What we essentially want is not a sniper, it's ARTILLERY!

Stationary, hard-hitting. Build on that concept?

Also please have wand and scroll mastery be faster as part of its upgrade--or even decrease the cooldown to use the scroll again.

~ The flavor we wanted for Mechanic is to be a saboteur and sniper.
~ We don't want them to be an Artificer light, so we don't want to just import Artificer stuff into the tree.
~ Runearms will stay exclusive to Artificers.

Sev~

I'm guessing that the Devs envision ARTILLERY in the realm of the Artificer and pushing Mechanics towards stealth, and hence sniper. Most mechanics are repeater-rogues and as pointed out in prior posts, tend to splash Arty to improve dps. Maybe the Devs are trying to draw a clearer distinction between Mechs and Artys.

Now if by ARTILLERY, you mean massive damage strikes set up by stealthily positioning yourself, not simply laying down ranged dps, it would seem that could be implemented into the theme being proposed.

Quite frankly, with the exception of the saboteur element and trapmaking improvements, I'm a little confused where my mechanic is going. Am I a DWS with a great crossbow? Or an Arty with evasion? Or is it business as usual (multi-class) with some improvements to keep up with end game content?

[Delacroix21]

For those of us that might want to try something different one day. Do these changes make regular crossbows (even with 40% speed) useful? I have not gone through every page so not sure if it's been discussed.

What would it take to make normal crossbow a viable choice, if the changes fail to adequately deal with them.

No they do not. Even with the speed boost and extra CRIT range/multi they will still attack too slow and do far less damage then meele over time.


What it would take to make greatcross bows viable (two options):
1. Attack speed almost equal to meele (this would require preety much removing reloading completely)
2. Attack damage boosted to make up for slow speed (100 ranged power chosen as with all relevant feats and capstone I see great crossbow attacking at less then half speed of meele)


I proposed the idea of making great crossbows super heavy hitters as it will give the tree a unique focus and add a new play style to the game (a slow hard hitting sniper). Repeaters should be looked at during the artificer pass, but in the meantime should also add some ranged power when equipped (25 seems right). Ranged power instead of +W will be better as it will also increase sneak attack damage, at least it should!

[Delacroix21]

I kinda feel abandoned here by the Devs and are afraid they are going to go forward with a weak tree and unviable great crossbow.


Sev have you been reading the past 2 pages and what are your thoughts on great crossbows getting inante ranged attack power to make them slow but powerfull?


Also can you see how due to the slow attack speed shiradi, dreadnaught, and shadow dancer will be poor choices for an ED? This leaves divine crusader for extra crit range (minor dps boost do to attack speed) or fury of the wild for a few big hits now and then.

[arcattaii]

Mechanic needs more ranged sneak attack range rather than 5 meters. It could be similar to DWS, please give 5 meters per or per two core abilities to Mechanic.

And the T5 2APs ability Sniper is too weak, it also could be similar to DWS Sniper Shot. Mechanic tree is lacking of a regular active ability which to burst their ranged DPS, nor do Assassin or TA have, it will be great to add one.

[Unsmitten]

I kinda feel abandoned here by the Devs and are afraid they are going to go forward with a weak tree and unviable great crossbow.


Sev have you been reading the past 2 pages and what are your thoughts on great crossbows getting innate ranged attack power to make them slow but powerful?


Also can you see how due to the slow attack speed shiradi, dreadnaught, and shadow dancer will be poor choices for an ED? This leaves divine crusader for extra crit range (minor dps boost do to attack speed) or fury of the wild for a few big hits now and then.

It's not just the Devs, most of the players seem to be ignoring this thread too. Seems to be the same couple people making suggestions, and we all seem to share the same concerns. It would be great to get some more feedback on these suggestions(especially Dev feedback), because it's been a week and the only feedback from devs has been clarification on trap DCs.

I like the idea of innate ranged power on great crossbows, especially if sneak attacks scaled with it. The great crossbow really should be artillery, slow and powerful.

As far as EDs go, I would like to see several changes with regards to crossbows. First, because of how slow crossbows are, Fury Eternal from FotW should have either a 50 or 100% chance on vorpal to regain an adrenaline charge. Keep it at 33% for melee and bows. Personally, I am fine with fury only getting 1 ranged power per core, because the ED is set around using adrenaline.

Next, Shiradi really needs some love for all ranged weapons, 4 RP per core isn't going to bring any non-casters back to the ED. Give crossbows and throwing(not shuriken) double the % proc chance for all of the abilities, and make the damage scale with ranged power in addition to/or instead of spell power.

Some might ask why bows don't need love, there are 2 reasons. Manyshot and 10k Stars, enough said.

[IronClan]

I agree with the sentiment of making crossbows the heavy hitters of ranged DPS as they historically were just that, the trigger/crank mechanicsm allowed extremely stiff bows to hold more stored energy and thus deliver higher kinetic energy.

The fact of manyshot/10k stars and Shuricannon 3 stars per throw make this a hard task to make viable or desirable... as even if they hit pretty hard they are still lagging behind in procs (mortal fear, and affix procs) delivering vulnerability procs at an extremely slow rate, and many other proc and affix focused DPS and CC functions. SO it's really not enough to make the weapon a X4... I can make a Pinion into a X4 and enjoy manyshot's massive boost in proc chances and affix damage.

I feel like something like making archers focus more impactful for crossbows by for example giving a multiplier for every X stack of focus, (simulating aiming ala a sniper) and giving benefits to positioning (for example no Agrro on you = scaled up Ranged Power, flanking shot = More scaled up Ranged Power, Rear shot = even more than that); would be highly rewarding and new/different play style however... Mobs in DDO have 9000hps... a best case scenario X4 Thunderforged Great crossbow (X2 +X2 from mechanic) assuming lucky crits, is going to take 6 or 8 max crits to kill 1 trash mob.

6 or 8 max crits, probably realistically 3 or 4 really good crits and 10 or 15 normal shots... not exactly sniper material. Archers focus in a best case scenario could make this maybe 3 max crits and a handful of normal shots... still not "one shot one kill" sniper vibe.

So I'm not sure they could even reach the goal of making Mechanic "snipery" it maybe needs a massive single shot attack (ala a stronger slayer arrow) as a T5 that is multiplied by crits and maye also has some nice amplification from Archers focus... perhaps this would provide a sniper playstyle...

BTW far be it from me to give excuses to the Dev's but they are in the crunch part of getting the current update out and Mechanic is not even on Lam so probably will be next update I'm guessing... We have time.