Rogue - Mechanic (and Traps) Proposed Changes

[bbqzor]

Clarifications

Thank you, thats as it should be. Hopefully you can get to the other comments later... this tree has seen few (if any?) changes from the thread so far, I guess those are in discussion with the team now? I sincerely hope this tree gets as much attention as the others, despite getting posted later. Id rather see it come in late and right, than on time and wrong, so dont rush anything!

Disable devices = Character sheet Skill? All items and enhancements apply?

Yeah. Its no change from live now, just changing the tooltip to reflect how its working.

[Myrddinman]

I still have not heard anything about named Great Crossbows

[Unsmitten]

Core Abilities

• Tanglefoot: Acid Damage scales with 200% Ranged Power. Both DCs are now 10 + Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier.
• Improved Detection: You also gain +1 to hit, +1 damage, and 1 extra Sneak Attack die with bows, crossbows and thrown weapons.
• Expert Builder: You gain a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range and Critical Multiplier for bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Critical Multiplier increases to +2 for great crossbows.
• Hip Flask: The action boost portion of Hip Flask now also heals you for 10d6 and adds +10 to Dodge and Maximum Dodge when activated. The healing scales with 200% Ranged Power. The Dodge and Maximum Dodge last for 10 seconds.

Here are the cores as they are on Live.

Core 1: Arbalester: Increases your ranged sneak attack and point blank shot range by 5 meters. You also gain proficiency with great crossbows.

Core 3: Tanglefoot: Cooldown: 30 seconds. Spell Resistance: No

Alchemical Trap Activate: Throws a flask of caustic liquid at your enemy, which explodes into a sticky mess. Enemies caught within by the goo puddle take 4d6 acid damage every 2 seconds (Reflex DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier Half) and are slowed (Reflex DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier Negates).

Core 6: Targeting Sights: You can now use your Intelligence modifier for damage modifier with all crossbows and thrown weapons. You also gain proficiency with light repeating crossbows.

Core 12: Improved Detection: You can detect traps and search from 50% further away. You also gain proficiency with heavy repeating crossbows.

Core 18: Expert Builder: You gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Multiplier with Great Crossbows. In addition, this ability reduces the cooldowns of Alchemical Trap attacks by 20%.

Capstone: Hip Flask: Passive: +2 Dexterity and Intelligence, +1 to hit with all crossbows, +1 damage with all repeating crossbows, +2 damage with non-repeating crossbows, +2 Sneak Attack dice and +2 to hit when performing Sneak Attacks
Action Boost: You drink a potion that you've been saving for a special occasion. For the next 60 seconds, you gain +1d6 to all ability scores, and +2d6 to attack and damage. (Cooldown: 3 minutes)
"A little something of your own creation. Potent stuff, drink sparingly."

Sev,
Over all, I think this tree will be great, BUT I have a couple issues with it.

First, the DCs for Tanglefoot, Thunderstone and Ooze Flask will still be to weak for EE content, adding epic level*2 like another suggested or at least epic level to it would make them viable.

My other issue is with this adding bows to the tree. Personally,(and everyone will not share this view) I think it should only be for crossbows and throwing like it has been. That is, unless(If-then) the Arcane archer tree is opened up to crossbows. Another, more fitting idea is to allow bows to benefit from the sniper hit/damage and Fletcher(and Rapid Fire as they can now). Instead exclude bows from the crit profile updates in the core. Also, I would like to see the cores beefed up even more then you plan.

Core I should be as it is, but add(like Deepwood Stalker) 5 SA/PBS range with each core/no max range at Capstone

Core II DC should be (Reflex DC 10 + Rogue Level + Epic Level(*2) + Intelligence Modifier Negates)

Core III Change name to Improved Sight, and combine the Int to damage with xbow/thrower with the 50% increased search/detect range.

Core IV move core 5 to 4 and read as follows. Expert Builder: You gain a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range and Critical Multiplier for crossbows and thrown weapons.

Core V could be Master Arbalest, and read as follows. You gain +1 to hit, +1 damage, and 1 extra Sneak Attack die with crossbows and thrown weapons. As well as a +1 Bonus to Critical Threat Range and Critical Multiplier for Great Crossbows(in addition the the bonus granted from Expert Builder)

Capstone I would propose get rid of the dodge bonus, replace it with a static +5 ranged power and make it no longer an action boost.


Obviously this is How I would like to see it, but for sure the DC of the enhancement based flasks will suffer in EE if they are not boosted.

This is exactly how I see it, and is why I suggested moving the 18 to 12 and buffing great crossbows more with the 18. You forgot to mention that bards get massive crit profile boosts at LEVEL 3 on a wide array of weapons. The way the cores for Mechanic are now, they are terrible until 18.

Wow 5 extra SA/PBS range.

Sweet, a slightly better DC for what was a completely useless flask.

Oh hey, int to damage for 1 less enhancement point then I can get from Harper.

Woah, 50% more search range, as if we didn't already memorize where every trap in the game is.

Here we go, finally I've gone pure rogue and now I get some better crits, who needs to make heavy splashes anyways. I'll just make a Sunelf 18 Rogue 2 Monk, the best AA ever man. Turbines gonna make some serious dough from all the +5 Lesser Hearts. Hm, what ever happened to (great) crossbows being the focus?

Sorry Sev, I know you don't like sarcasm in posts and the last quote from me is, but it is also the truth. The cores(especially 1,3,6,12) need more work. Now should I be the one to decide them? No, but having played mechanic builds for years(even back when the enhancements were all jumbled together, before trees) so I do have a good basis for making suggestions for them.

I have had change of thought process for some of the cores, but here I will lay them each out.

CORE 1: Arbalester: Increases your ranged sneak attack and point blank shot range by 5 meters for every core(including this one) and no maximum range with the capstone. You also gain proficiency with great crossbows.

I realize it is exactly the same as the Deepwood Stalker(Sniper as I will always know it) Core 1. with what is being suggested now, this tree begs for you to go pure or at least 18 rogue. So you can't really splash ranger levels for the extra range.


CORE 3: Targeting Sights: You can now use your Intelligence modifier for damage modifier with all bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. You also gain proficiency with light repeating crossbows and the use of Tanglefoot Flask.

Tanglefoot: Cooldown: 30 seconds. Spell Resistance: No

Alchemical Trap Activate: Throws a flask of caustic liquid at your enemy, which explodes into a sticky mess. Enemies caught within by the goo puddle take 4d6 acid damage every 2 seconds (Reflex DC 10 + Rogue Level + Epic Level*2 + Intelligence Modifier Half) and are slowed (Reflex DC 10 + Rogue Level + Epic Level*2 + Intelligence Modifier Negates). Acid Damage scales with 200% Ranged Power.

Another instance of something another tree does easier, Mechanic should have it's int to damage core moved down from 6 and combined with 3. Currently it takes 6 levels and 11 points invested to obtain. I suggest making it require level 3, and 6 invested AP. Why? because otherwise I will invest in the Harper tree which requires level 3, and 12 AP invested to use. That and otherwise the core has no passive benefit other then a flask that could still be ineffective without a bigger DC boost.


CORE 6: Improved Detection: You can detect traps and search from 50% further away. You also gain 1 extra Sneak Attack die and proficiency with heavy repeating crossbows.

Simply moving the core 12 down to 6.


CORE 12: Expert Builder: You gain a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range and Critical Multiplier for crossbows and thrown weapons. In addition, this ability reduces the cooldowns of Alchemical Trap attacks by 20%.

Again, moving the cores down a tier and saving bows for core 18. In order to keep crossbow multi-class options open, while at the same time not giving monchers another leg up.


CORE 18: Master Tinker: You gain +1 to hit, +1 damage, and 1 extra Sneak Attack die with bow,crossbows and thrown weapons. As well as a +1 Bonus to Critical Threat Range and Critical Multiplier for bows and Great Crossbows(in addition the the bonus granted from Expert Builder.)

This will give 18 or pure Rogues a significant boost to great crossbows, which 18-20 rogue is the only class that currently uses them in addition to opening up bows as an option.


Capstone: Hip Flask: Passive: +4 Intelligence, +5 Ranged power, +2 Sneak Attack dice and +2 to hit when performing Sneak Attacks

Hip Flask: You drink a potion that you've been saving for a special occasion. Heal for 10d6(positive for flesh/Repair for Warforged, much like LoH) and adds +10 to Dodge and Maximum Dodge when activated. The healing scales with 200% Ranged Power. For the next 60 seconds, you gain +1d6 to all ability scores, and +2d6 to attack and damage. (Cooldown: 2 minutes) (Edit#2 forgot some text - The Dodge and Maximum Dodge last for 10 seconds.)
"A little something of your own creation. Potent stuff, drink sparingly."

Replace the 2 dex with 2 int, because if you are going 20 rogue for mechanic, you won't use dex. Replace the +hit/damage with +5 Ranged power, this is more thematic with other recent enhancement updates. And of course, changing this from an Action boost to a self contained Capstone ability.

Sorry for the wall of text, please give your feedback or do I stand alone?

EDIT: Forgot this suggestion. Make the Capstone a multi-selector between Hip Flask and Sniper Shot(Deepwood Sniper core 6)

Sniper Shot: Ranged Attack: Performs a ranged attack with +2[W], a +4 bonus to-hit, +2 to critical threat range, and +2 to Critical Damage Multiplier. On Damage: The target will become momentarily confused and rendered vulnerable to sneak attacks for four seconds as if affected by the bluff skill. (Cooldown 6 seconds)

[Livmo]

Clarifications:

~ Traps DCs are determined by the Disable Device skill of the person who is setting it.
~ The DC is determined when the trap is set. I was trying to say that players should play with it when it hits Lamannia,
~ Making the DC based on UMD was a suggestion of another poster and unrelated to the trap pass.

It is unlikely Mechanic changes will be available for the first Lamannia pass, but trap changes should be there.

Sev~

Please keep the DC based on DD. Thanks!

[Ayseifn]

Swapping spell DC traps to UMD could be interesting, basing them off of DD is just the Coup de Gras problem all over again where it's trivial to get to no fail levels.

[Unsmitten]

Swapping spell DC traps to UMD could be interesting, basing them off of DD is just the Coup de Gras problem all over again where it's trivial to get to no fail levels.

While it is "similar" DD for DC has been around for years, long before CdG. Traps use DD to DC, CdG uses 1d20+perform. Unlike CdG, traps don't instakill, so why are you comparing the 2? Keep the CdG complaints in the CdG complaint threads and out of the Mechanic discussion please.

[IronClan]

~ If we hit caps on throwing speed on Lamannia or in testing we can replace alacrity for double shot for throwing weapons.

Why not start bucking this boring trend the entire game is going towards with MOAR SPEED and MOAR PROCS and add some options for more first number damage instead? +[W] instead of Double strike, Die size increases, Enhancement bonus increases, Seeker, Ranged/Melee power.

Let's differentiate Shurikens and Other throwers instead of just copying them, make other throwers more about first number damage (like you're trying to do with Great Xbow) and less about machine gun procs/Affixes.

This is the Bed that was made by TF crafting being so lopsided towards weapon speed and proc frequency. Just look at the comments in this thread:

* Great Xbows could be buffed to be 11-20 x5 4D12 weapons and STILL no one would use them 90% of the time; their attack speed is so slow

But there need to be "extra thrower" options for all non-shuriken, and it seems like with the way they are going, it would make sense for those to be in this tree. Otherwise they will still lag too far behind shuricannon builds.

That's the first two I saw catching up on the most recent unread page.

With the game's lag issues I do not understand the Designers insistent plung towards more computationally intensive and higher client server communication back and forth that comes with speeding up attacks and adding more Procs per second.

A larger Crit does not take more client server communication (a larger sum is still only 1 calculation, and only one update sent back and forth) 30% alacrity takes 30% more physics checks... 30% more checks to see if something proc'ed

3 100 damage attacks in a second is 300DPS**

1 300 damage attack in a second is 300DPS

One of them costs three times more physics checks* and thus peak server overhead when a bunch of people are all beating down mass mobs, that's 3 times more glances, 3 times more double strike chances...

All of which were a problem that Prompted your predecessor to to make the Update 5 combat changes that included eliminating stacking alacrity.

* But it's not just that: one of them has up to 6 Meteoric Augments that need to be checked (1 red and 1 orange slot X 3 attacks) up to 3 preffix procs up to 3 Suffix slots, 3 T1 3 T2 and 3 Mortal Fear checks, 3 times more checks to see if Vulnerability procs (and don't tell me the game refuses to check every time because it can only apply once per 1 second, I'll eat my hat if you guys coded it to be that efficient) if it's a THF or Bastard/Daxe that's 3 checks for glances, and 3 checks for Affixes going off on those glaces... Etc. etc. etc.

** disclaimer granted most players are not attacking this fast the number was chosen for convenient math, that said I'd guess Shuricannon and Wolf builds are attacking faster than 3/per second, with Vanguards and SWF approching that (I believe I've seen 2.5) when optimized.

[IronClan]

Great stuff!

Makes me think that the theme of ballista could be emphasized, such as some kind of effect on Archer's focus stacking--speed, amount, additional effects? And hey! One less reason to kite!

You know this reminds me of an old idea I had that would entice people to actively use Archers focus, for every 2 seconds you don't move you gain X1 on a 19-20 up to something fun like X10


but would be cool as a GreatXbow effect, on a 20 roll every stack of Archers focus you have is given as a crit Multiplier... (or a mini version: seeker bonus)

Sorry for the wall of text, please give your feedback or do I stand alone?

EDIT: Forgot this suggestion. Make the Capstone a multi-selector between Hip Flask and Sniper Shot(Deepwood Sniper core 6)

Sniper Shot: Ranged Attack: Performs a ranged attack with +2[W], a +4 bonus to-hit, +2 to critical threat range, and +2 to Critical Damage Multiplier. On Damage: The target will become momentarily confused and rendered vulnerable to sneak attacks for four seconds as if affected by the bluff skill. (Cooldown 6 seconds)

You definitely don't stand alone, I've made similar proposals, the cores as they stand are too much like the mistakes they made with the Enhancement pass trees.

1. You have to be 18 Rogue before the fun starts
2. you have to be 6 rogue before you get use of your main stat investment
3. way too restrictive to multiclassing past a splash
4. conversely it virtually guarantees a 2 Arti splash.
5. Other alternative stats like DEX are usually in Core 3

Holy Sword is lvl 14 and buffs the best most optimal weapons in the game.
Expert Builder is level 18 and buffs only random generated great crossbows or a GS one, until you can make a Thunderforged.

Keep normal Bows at 18, put GXB at 12 put INT in Core 3... seems like much smoother advancement.

Improve the cap *a lot*, more thoughts on that when I get some time.

[Unsmitten]

You know this reminds me of an old idea I had that would entice people to actively use Archers focus, for every 2 seconds you don't move you gain X1 on a 19-20 up to something fun like X10


but would be cool as a GreatXbow effect, on a 20 roll every stack of Archers focus you have is given as a crit Multiplier... (or a mini version: seeker bonus.

I was thinking something similar for archer's focus. My thought was to give something like 2-4 prr/mrr for every stack of archer's focus while standing still. Would help to aleviate kiting, annoying the melees who have to chase less.

[Delacroix21]

Well after envisioning making a greatcross bow rogue with this tree (after they buff it more as what is in there now is not enough), I noticed the tree is kinda boring.


Aside from the alchemical bombs (which I doubt I will use) the only ranged active skill is leg shot, kinda lame. No endless fusillade or a sniper shot or any sort of cool "overload" where you fire 5 bolts at once, with like a 15 sec cooldown.


Please add something as this tree preety much only utilizes auto attack which is boring.

[Saekee]

I was thinking something similar for archer's focus. My thought was to give something like 2-4 prr/mrr for every stack of archer's focus while standing still. Would help to aleviate kiting, annoying the melees who have to chase less.

But that would not make sense. It seems intuitive to have the damage increase heavily for something like a great crossbow. From adding 1W modifiers (which really adds up for great crossbows) to faster stacking. I like IronClan's ideas. I am thinking of those big kobold bows in HH.

[Saekee]

Well after envisioning making a greatcross bow rogue with this tree (after they buff it more as what is in there now is not enough), I noticed the tree is kinda boring.


Aside from the alchemical bombs (which I doubt I will use) the only ranged active skill is leg shot, kinda lame. No endless fusillade or a sniper shot or any sort of cool "overload" where you fire 5 bolts at once, with like a 15 sec cooldown.


Please add something as this tree preety much only utilizes auto attack which is boring.

I predict something similar to this build I created before these changes. Elven for access to AA tree, bow buffs and dragonmarks; 6 monk for 10K, 3 feats and movement speed (and Forms); 13 rogue for two rogue bonus feats (Improved evasion and Opportunist if it works with bows); running speed boost from acrobat; various buffs from Harper and mechanic tree.

[slarden]

Please keep the DC based on DD. Thanks!

Agreed. I thought this was a pass to buff rogues because they are weak not to nerf rogues.

[Delacroix21]

I predict something similar to this build I created before these changes. Elven for access to AA tree, bow buffs and dragonmarks; 6 monk for 10K, 3 feats and movement speed (and Forms); 13 rogue for two rogue bonus feats (Improved evasion and Opportunist if it works with bows); running speed boost from acrobat; various buffs from Harper and mechanic tree.

Well thats my whole point, the only ranged active skills will require multiclassing.


At the moment this tree is just a straight up hold down auto attack and lay the occasional trap, pretty boring play style if you ask me.


It needs some sort of burst damage skill or something you know?

[Delacroix21]

Sniper Shot: Ranged Attack: Performs a ranged attack with +2[W], a +4 bonus to-hit, +2 to critical threat range, and +2 to Critical Damage Multiplier. On Damage: The target will become momentarily confused and rendered vulnerable to sneak attacks for four seconds as if affected by the bluff skill. (Cooldown 6 seconds)


Perfect for proccing sneak attacks, and will have great "sniper" synergy with Fury of the Wild. This will actually turn great crossbows (with 19-20 vorp) and +6 multiplier with this skill (2 base, 2 tree, 2 sniper shot) into a viable sniper option.


Please please Sev, add an active ranged skill or two to the tree.

[Oxarhamar]

Well thats my whole point, the only ranged active skills will require multiclassing.


At the moment this tree is just a straight up hold down auto attack and lay the occasional trap, pretty boring play style if you ask me.


It needs some sort of burst damage skill or something you know?

meh unless they intent to fix "active attacks" that are lost in the reload cycle I'm not interested

[vengfarga]

Clarifications:

~ Traps DCs are determined by the Disable Device skill of the person who is setting it.
~ The DC is determined when the trap is set. I was trying to say that players should play with it when it hits Lamannia,
~ Making the DC based on UMD was a suggestion of another poster and unrelated to the trap pass.

It is unlikely Mechanic changes will be available for the first Lamannia pass, but trap changes should be there.

Sev~

Ok, focusing on the traps then as they are coming first ...

* The DCs are fine as is - never been a problem with them being effective.
* The damage IS a big problem. I ran some most unscientific tests yesterday using my L28 Mech - probably slightly above average geared and built (from a casual players perspective - I'm so far from being l33t that I play a Rog Mech!) and my damage per second was only lower than the proposed max level trap damage average against non-SAable, high fort opponents who were far away ... when I had no boosts, buffs, twists, destinies, etc. running.


Considering traps require gathering ingredients, crafting, etc, they REALLY should be doing a bit more than 'slightly over your worst DPS'.
Possible solutions:
* Instant set time (maybe OP for magical traps)
* Instant set time and magical traps work off UMD not DD
- both OK but still meh damage
* Double the number of dice per level
* Apply spellpower of the appropriate element
- SP is possible to build to a decent level for at least one element, I built for fire in a previous iteration and twisted Energy burst ...now THAT'S an explosion
* Slow the set time WAAAY down, increase the ingredients per trap massively and ramp the damage WAAAY up to something you only use sparingly ... but when you do it has a real effect - stormreach plaza style!
- probably not practical but my personal favourite!
- fits best with the 'saboteur' feel

[Saekee]

Sniper Shot: Ranged Attack: Performs a ranged attack with +2[W], a +4 bonus to-hit, +2 to critical threat range, and +2 to Critical Damage Multiplier. On Damage: The target will become momentarily confused and rendered vulnerable to sneak attacks for four seconds as if affected by the bluff skill. (Cooldown 6 seconds)


Perfect for proccing sneak attacks, and will have great "sniper" synergy with Fury of the Wild. This will actually turn great crossbows (with 19-20 vorp) and +6 multiplier with this skill (2 base, 2 tree, 2 sniper shot) into a viable sniper option.


Please please Sev, add an active ranged skill or two to the tree.

Delacroix I think the closest solution to adding this would be to modify Shiv in the assassin tree to work on ranged attacks as well. I know assassin is melee-focused but there is no reason not to do this simple modifier.
Of course bluffing works better as a skill with ranged attacks too--no long animation

[Delacroix21]

meh unless they intent to fix "active attacks" that are lost in the reload cycle I'm not interested

Sniper shot works great on live, and so does endless fuselade which seems like a perfect fit. In fact I'm really surprised endless fuselade wasn't in there to begin with, it's not a class specific skill lore wise.

[Oxarhamar]

Sniper shot works great on live, and so does endless fuselade which seems like a perfect fit. In fact I'm really surprised endless fuselade wasn't in there to begin with, it's not a class specific skill lore wise.

Sniper shot & the other "active attacks" can be lost in the reload cycle of Xbows.

Endless fuselage is an action boost which doesn't experience the same problems.

*I'll post the full list of active Ranged attacks wich can be lost in the reload cycle as well as linking some threads on the topic when I'm home.

The basics is Xbows have an attack w/attack animation & reload w/reload animation. Using the active attack at an time in the attack reload cycle when the Xbow is not reloaded & animations completed & ready to fire will put the attack on timer with no attack.

The workaround is to make sure your Xbow is loaded before firing the active attack. This has been reported on Lamania as far back as U14 when Epic Destinies introduced many more active attacks to Ranged combat. (I'll post that thread also if I can find it again)

My fix proposal was for the attack not to go on timer if no attack is made.