Rogue - Mechanic (and Traps) Proposed Changes

[Delacroix21]

The improved critical range will boost DPS more than the alacrity, not even considering all the other perks in the tree. We never intended the Alacrity to be the sole reason the tree would do better DPS.

Sev~

Yes it will, but you are not seeing where a big rogue dps comes from= sneak attack.


Rogues have always gone for the most attacks per min to maximize sneak attack damage. Now if a repeater can fire 50% to 100% more shots over the course of a minute that is an enormous difference in dps between the 2.


If the rogue has even a 70 base damage a shot with a great crossbow, then every +1 crit mutli adds only 70 extra damage on a crit (85 with seeker 15).

BUT!!!!!

A equal level rogue with 30d6 sneak attack (only 1d6 less then great crossbow) with do an extra 105 damage every hit. If that rogue has 30% more attacks per minute that pulls him massively ahead. So yes, I still believe on paper let alone in game great crossbows are not viable yet vs repeaters.




Suggestions=
Double attack % on great crossbows

a bit off topic suggestion=
This tree could also use
Sniper Shot: Ranged Attack: Performs a ranged attack with +2[W], a +4 bonus to-hit, +2 to critical threat range, and +2 to Critical Damage Multiplier. On Damage: The target will become momentarily confused and rendered vulnerable to sneak attacks for four seconds as if affected by the bluff skill. (Cooldown 6 seconds)

That is from deepwood sniper tree and honestly it even outclasses the assassin removal of sneak attack penalty.

[Oxarhamar]

The improved critical range will boost DPS more than the alacrity, not even considering all the other perks in the tree. We never intended the Alacrity to be the sole reason the tree would do better DPS.

Sev~

While the Crit range and the other perks are definitely a factor.

I am most interested in seeing how the reload speed works as attack speed boosted have had little effect on Xbows thanks to the reload speed being uneffected.

Looking forward to testing this on Lamania to see how much of an increase in bolts/min.

[Slasheboy]

Some more replies:

~ If we hit caps on throwing speed on Lamannia or in testing we can replace alacrity for double shot for throwing weapons.

~ If non-repeating crossbows and Great Crossbows are still too far behind we will look into large Sneak Attack bonuses for them.

~ No plans for a ranged Assassinate.

Sev~

Please consider decreasing the throwing speed increase from Whirling Wrists' 20%/40%/60% and putting it somewhere in the heroic levels.
It seems silly that non-shuriken throwing builds are only viable with an Epic Destiny.


I really love the idea of placing large SA bonuses for the non-repeaters, but it would still be too weak because of its inability to scale and repeaters' tripleshot are just so much better.
I'll repeat the idea of making non-repeats and GXB shoot two bolt volleys via rapid reload or increasing their attack speed by at least 70%.
If that's not to your taste, how about making GXB and non-repeaters use D10 instead of D6 for sneak attacks and always do SA damage regardless of aggro?

[Jetrule]

I Have a few request for consideration to further buff Rogue mechanics. To make them pure rogues they are very feat intensive. Pointblank shot, Rapid reload, Rapid fire, Precise Shot Improved Precise Shot. This is most of their available feats. Many players will probably want Insightful Reflexes, That's 6 nearly mandatory feats for a crossbow focused pure rogue.

I envision a rogue mechanic as wearing a bit heavier armor. Having good crowd control and being able to pierce others armor. And being the master at trapping. So instead of or in addition to letting mechanics detect traps from farther away I would like a option for auto detecting them from just passing by at -9, like Elves and Shadarkai can do at great a.p. expense.

Adding medium armor proficiency like a war chanter with perhaps granting evasion while wearing medium armor to the tree, and fort bypass maybe even dodge and concealment bypass say 20% to tier 5 sniper bonuses. And giving the capstone a nice +3 or +5 bonus to spot search disable and open locks. I would love to take skill focuses and awareness feats but my rouge is just too feat starved.

I know I could multi class as fighter and get into heavy armor and get my feats for a int. based rogue But I would like to go Rogue all the way.

[HastyPudding]

The improved critical range will boost DPS more than the alacrity, not even considering all the other perks in the tree. We never intended the Alacrity to be the sole reason the tree would do better DPS.

Sev~

I'm happy to hear that. Personally, I'd do away with the alacrity altogether and simply give great crossbows/crossbows a HUGE damage boost. Instead of the large but fast hits you see in most builds (both melee and ranged) you'd see slower attack speed, but massive damage on each hit. It effectively turns the mechanic into more of a ballista/engineer type than a typical ranged build you'd associate with rangers or even artificers.

[Thar]

The improved critical range will boost DPS more than the alacrity, not even considering all the other perks in the tree. We never intended the Alacrity to be the sole reason the tree would do better DPS.

Sev~

Isn't this what people perceive the issue is with Paladin. Not saying it is not good or needed, just cautioning making it too much pending the rest of the ranged pass that we don't know how it will impact all this yet?

[PermaBanned]

From:

~ A rogue archer and rogues skilled at throwing are staples in fantasy so we wanted a place for them, and this tree seemed the best of the three.

Sev~

To:

~ No plans for a ranged Assassinate.

Sev~

I would be greatly interested in the thought process/rationale behind why it is that a Swashbuckler should have a ranged assassinate (via CdG) but an actual Assassin should not...

[Splunge]

Note that the DC for elemental traps and spell traps will remain as they are on live, using a percentage of Disable Device and increased by Mechanic and Artificer talents.

Sev~

Does that mean that it's WAI for spell trap DCs to use the DD skill? That differs from the in game description.

It would be interesting to have the spell trap DCs scale with UMD instead of DD.

[Severlin]

From:
To:

I would be greatly interested in the thought process/rationale behind why it is that a Swashbuckler should have a ranged assassinate (via CdG) but an actual Assassin should not...

Swashbuckler was intentionally designed to support throwing builds as a variant. Assassin is designed to be primarily melee.

Sev~

[Severlin]

Does that mean that it's WAI for spell trap DCs to use the DD skill? That differs from the in game description.

As of the Update 25 trap pass it is WAI.

It would be interesting to have the spell trap DCs scale with UMD instead of DD.

UMD is probably good enough.

Sev~

[PermaBanned]

It would be interesting to have the spell trap DCs scale with UMD instead of DD.

Considering how much higher I can get DD vs UMD - I prefer DD based

[Saekee]

responding to: Does that mean that it's WAI for spell trap DCs to use the DD skill? That differs from the in game description.

As of the Update 25 trap pass it is WAI.


Sev~

Could you please clarify how gear affects this DC, if at all? Is it basically one's DD sans gear? Or maybe the gear one is wearing when one sets a trap (which would make sense)? This has a significant effect on the DC, such as the various skill buffs indirectly related (greater heroism, good luck, etc.) as well as direct bonuses to Disable Device.

[Severlin]

Could you please clarify how gear affects this DC, if at all? Is it basically one's DD sans gear? Or maybe the gear one is wearing when one sets a trap (which would make sense)? This has a significant effect on the DC, such as the various skill buffs indirectly related (greater heroism, good luck, etc.) as well as direct bonuses to Disable Device.

I believe it's the current DC with gear, but I think that's a good thing to test on Lamannia. (We didn't change the implementation from live.)

Sev~

[Saekee]

I believe it's the current DC with gear, but I think that's a good thing to test on Lamannia. (We didn't change the implementation from live.)

Sev~

thanks for the quick clarification. It is hard for players to test. It would be strange if it were the gear one is wearing after it is set, not while it is set, although that may be the necessity of coding.

[bbqzor]

As of the Update 25 trap pass it is WAI.

UMD is probably good enough.

I believe it's the current DC with gear, but I think that's a good thing to test on Lamannia.

Sigh. I am not sure what to make of these three conflicting statements, but look:
- Traps are NOT something that can be used often. Getting enough parts to support using them like every single fight means you are doomed to spend time doing nothing but farming them, or buying them off the AH.
-Making the DC use UMD is terrible, as its purposefully kept extremely low by comparison to other skills. 5 vs 20 item boost, 3 vs 5 for skill tome, etc. Cha isnt even a core stat for rogues, which are already getting pulled heavily between dex and int. Just no.
- And using DC with or without items is again punishment vs every other class. Casters get spellpower after things like heal or spellcraft items. Bards get coup de grace after perform items. Rogues darn well better get trap DCs after disable items.

All those other classes dont have to farm quest-dropped parts to consume to use their class core abilities. Rogues/Mechanics do. There is no reason to NOT give them the same benefits everyone else gets. Traps have been terrible, and you went above and beyond to offer an unplanned trap pass as part of this update. The last thing I want to see is it get borked at the 11th hour, and then left again to rot as useless for years. Using full DD is fine. It works fine now, it can keep working fine, and people might actually start hopping into this tree as a result. Thats nothing but good for the game.

On Hip Flask being an action boost: I agree that having a capstone competing with Action Boosts might be a concern. Let me bring this up with the team. (Or at least have the capstone also add some action boosts.)

Getting this onto a separate timer is probably necessary. Thats something that will be painfully obvious on Lama, where its better to just splash another class and use haste boost or something. Its already got an EXTREME opportunity cost with a 3 minute cooldown. Also see about lowering the cooldown to 120s. A 50/50 uptime/downtime is fair for a random capstone that rogues will likely be using to heal, more or less.

On Wrack Construct: I will bring up concerns with the team. This might be a place where Mechs can make constructs vulnerable to Sneal Attacks for a time.

Yes that would be nice. Also can you clarify, OP says this only scales with ranged power. Will the melee version scale with melee power? I assume its based on which you select, yes?

Additionally, you covered several other ranged points but havent chimed in on this one: Can they get a ranged bluff effect to enable sneaks at a distance for a short time? Sniper Shot (deepwood, third core, ranged version) is the ability needed here. Otherwise, it will be difficult to ensure crossbow mechanics can even use their sneak very well.

Likewise, can we get an additional 5 ft of sneak range enabled? The tree only offers one 5 ft bump (this takes the range from 30 base to 35). In play, really you need at least 40 before this is relevant... otherwise with chop, latency, imprecise checks vs different elevations, etc its just basically the same as 30. Going to 40 actually gives them breathing room to work with, given a non-perfect massive online environment.

Adding some sort of bluff attack (similar to what new shiv is supposed to do for other rogues, exactly as sniper shot works though without the same combat modifiers per se) is very desireable. Traps cannot win the day 24/7, they are limited by parts. Mechanics arent looking for the +crit range or whatever of sniper shot (thought Im sure no one would complain) but the bluff component is necessary. And getting that sneak range from 30 to 40 is also pretty necessary. Those two things are critical components for being able to play a ranged rogue type consistently.

Lastly, havent seen any mention of changing the skills action boost to 1/1/1. Is there some reason you think its worth 6 ap? I find that pretty tough to believe, maybe itll just show up on lama that way without an update to the OP.

Thanks.

[Impaqt]

I believe it's the current DC with gear, but I think that's a good thing to test on Lamannia. (We didn't change the implementation from live.)

Sev~

Sorry, But If your in the middle of revamping Rogue mechanic, Shouldnt you know how the Trap DC's work?

We dont know because we gave up on traps about 2 minutes after they came out.

Seems to me if Mechanic and trapmaking is being revamped, making sure DC's can reach reasonable levels should be a priority.

It would be really nice to know exactly how the DC's were designed to work and how we can expect them to work as we move towards the Update 25 Release. There are so many mechanics in this game that have poor descriptions. why is it so hard to say "This is exactly how XXX is supposed to work. Please bug report if you find its working a different way"

As of the Update 25 trap pass it is WAI.



UMD is probably good enough.

Sev~

wait. what Update 25 Trap pass? is this something we've seen yet? I though Lammania was still closed....

Edit: ah, I see it in the Op now. Dont remember that being there when this was posted originally. Must of missed it.

[Unsmitten]

Sorry, But If your in the middle of revamping Rogue mechanic, Shouldnt you know how the Trap DC's work?

We dont know because we gave up on traps about 2 minutes after they came out.

Seems to me if Mechanic and trapmaking is being revamped, making sure DC's can reach reasonable levels should be a priority.

It would be really nice to know exactly how the DC's were designed to work and how we can expect them to work as we move towards the Update 25 Release. There are so many mechanics in this game that have poor descriptions. why is it so hard to say "This is exactly how XXX is supposed to work. Please bug report if you find its working a different way"

The DCs for the crafted traps is fine as long as you have points in the enhancement. As far as how they work, it's hit and miss. The only trap I use is the web trap, it lasts 30 seconds. Most of the other traps are either useless or just don't do anything(hold person trap is one example.) The reduced plant/CD times will go a long way to making traps better. Hopefully the devs will be able to tackle the uneven ground issues that make the traps disappear into thin air.

[Qezuzu]

I believe it's the current DC with gear, but I think that's a good thing to test on Lamannia. (We didn't change the implementation from live.)

Sev~

Could you please clarify how gear affects this DC, if at all? Is it basically one's DD sans gear? Or maybe the gear one is wearing when one sets a trap (which would make sense)? This has a significant effect on the DC, such as the various skill buffs indirectly related (greater heroism, good luck, etc.) as well as direct bonuses to Disable Device.

Sorry, But If your in the middle of revamping Rogue mechanic, Shouldnt you know how the Trap DC's work?

We dont know because we gave up on traps about 2 minutes after they came out.

Seems to me if Mechanic and trapmaking is being revamped, making sure DC's can reach reasonable levels should be a priority.

It would be really nice to know exactly how the DC's were designed to work and how we can expect them to work as we move towards the Update 25 Release. There are so many mechanics in this game that have poor descriptions. why is it so hard to say "This is exactly how XXX is supposed to work. Please bug report if you find its working a different way"

Whatever the current implementation of the trap DCs are, it works. Spell Traps, at least Web have incredibly high DCs. Nothing saves, I've only ever seen EE Shadar-ki Assassins walk through the webs. And I can personally attest that things will save often if you forget to equip your DD item.

Also Sev you should double check the implementation of some spell traps. Dance and Blind are traps I've personally seen strange behavior from, Dance for example will hit two mobs but one is only danced for a couple seconds, Blind doesn't seem to ever hit anything. Are spell traps supposed to be single target? They shouldn't be, otherwise there's next to zero reason to use any trap that's not Web, Glitterdust, or Hypnotic Pattern.

[Severlin]

Clarifications:

~ Traps DCs are determined by the Disable Device skill of the person who is setting it.
~ The DC is determined when the trap is set. I was trying to say that players should play with it when it hits Lamannia,
~ Making the DC based on UMD was a suggestion of another poster and unrelated to the trap pass.

It is unlikely Mechanic changes will be available for the first Lamannia pass, but trap changes should be there.

Sev~

[Impaqt]

Clarifications:

~ Traps DCs are determined by the Disable Device skill of the person who is setting it.
~ The DC is determined when the trap is set. I was trying to say that players should play with it when it hits Lamannia,

It is unlikely Mechanic changes will be available for the first Lamannia pass, but trap changes should be there.

Sev~

Disable devices = Character sheet Skill? All items and enhancements apply?