Devs - Please throw unarmed monks a bone.

[LavidDynch]

Dear Turbine,

I would love to play monk at end game, they are in my opinion one of your most fun classes but they are totally lacking in 'red named' DPS. 19/20 crit range is simply not okay for melee. Period.

Even with my proposed changes they would be no way near top DPS and still a challenge to play due to their lousy inherit healing capabilities and wearing pjamases restriction. I'm totally fine with the latter.

Suggestion 1:

Make tier 5 in Legendary Dreadnaught work with handwraps.

Suggestion 2:

Violence Begets Violence: While Earth Stance is active, when an opponent misses you in melee, you gain +1 critical threat range for 6 seconds. This stacks up to 5 times and is reset if you critically hit

Change this to what the swashbucklers have:

Exploit Weaknesses: Every time you damage an enemy but do not critically hit, you gain a stacking +1 Insight Bonus to Critical Threat Range until you successfully critically hit

there are other ways of dealing with this issue, you can add a stacking +1 crit range to each tier of monk strike etc etc...

[dkyle]

I don't think the objective should be to make Monks just like other classes. And I think attaching a strong DPS boost to a single stance would be unfortunate.

Instead of tying extra damage to crits, like other melee, how about buffing the forms strikes? The problem is, they don't scale well enough to be a significant increase in DPS.

Consider just a 15-20/x3 (seems to be minimum for epic melee these days). That works out to an extra 10 increments of base damage over the course of 20 attacks, vs a 19-20/x2.

This extra damage occurs automatically, but randomly. But suppose Monks got it by using their active abilities? That suggests something like this:

Grandmaster Storm Strike: deal x3 your base damage on this attack as additional Electricity damage.

Obviously, there'd be a lot of math involved to figure out where cooldowns and Ki costs should be so that damage added by optimal use of strikes makes up for lack of crits, but this is the order of potency I think active strikes should have to make them worthwhile.

[Lonnbeimnech]

and change

Stunning Fist

Cost: 15 Ki
Cooldown: 6 seconds
Usage: Active
Prerequisite: Flurry of Blows

Description

A swift unarmed attack to vulnerable areas that cause your target to be stunned for 6 seconds if it fails a (DC = 10 + half character levels + Wis mod + other modifiers) Fortitude save.

to


Fascinate

Level: Bard 1
Perform: 3 trained ranks (not total modifier)
Target: all nearby enemies not immune to mind-affecting effects
Base Duration: 24 seconds + 6 seconds per bard level
Saving Throw: Will negates, DC = Perform skill + 1d20

Song Description

This song fascinates most nearby living (not oozes, undead or constructs, unless core spellsinger enhancement have been acquired) enemies, causing them to cease their activities until they're damaged or the effect ends. Fascinated enemies are also vulnerable to charming by Suggestion Song and Mass Suggestion Song.

This song takes about 5 seconds of playing before the effect applies, and it affects enemies near the Bard at that time, not necessarily those that were close when the song started.

The song's duration can be raised through the Lingering Songs enhancement and virtuoso core enhancement found in the spellsinger tree. See: Bard enhancements.

Fascinate is considered a mind-affecting ability, thus mindless enemies or those immune to mind effecting abilities are immune, like vermin (scorpion and spider) (note: Music of the spider queen from the Fatesinger epic destiny will allow this song to work on vermin). Orange, Red and purple named enemies are also immune.

Official Description Note: In-game description displays an inaccurate duration. See this articles talk page for confirmation on duration with examples.

Note: Only the base number of ranks bought with skill points count toward the Perform requirement. Bonuses do not count.

/sarc

[LavidDynch]

I don't think the objective should be to make Monks just like other classes. And I think attaching a strong DPS boost to a single stance would be unfortunate.

Instead of tying extra damage to crits, like other melee, how about buffing the forms strikes? The problem is, they don't scale well enough to be a significant increase in DPS.

Consider just a 15-20/x3 (seems to be minimum for epic melee these days). That works out to an extra 10 increments of base damage over the course of 20 attacks, vs a 19-20/x2.

This extra damage occurs automatically, but randomly. But suppose Monks got it by using their active abilities? That suggests something like this:

Grandmaster Storm Strike: deal x3 your base damage on this attack as additional Electricity damage.

Obviously, there'd be a lot of math involved to figure out where cooldowns and Ki costs should be so that damage added by optimal use of strikes makes up for lack of crits, but this is the order of potency I think active strikes should have to make them worthwhile.

I prefer to keep it simple, no need to re-invent the wheel, if it ends up with same desired numbers, stick to the the easy path -- something they can add in a hotfix.

An overhaul of monks are not even on the horizon, and is imo not needed. Just something -- anything really -- to get 17-20 crit range would balance them vs most classes (besides barb).

[Blackheartox]

When we look at what sev wrote about plans i sadly must say that a monk revamp is not even close.
From what he is saying, this year is booked with ranged spell power, rogue, druid, fsoul, artie and "maybe" fighter.

Only thing monks will get is who knows, maybe a nerf to monkchery.
I mean, wraps builds are not that bad when it comes to dps.
When you compare to fighters n such they are actually good now.
Not even a 1/8th of what barbs and palies can do tho /but that is a issue of harmor +super strong capstones



I agree fully with you, since my 2 fav playstyles in ddo are monk and sorc.
And no not a shuriken throwing or bow using or staff using monk.
A simple fist monk that punches, kicks and jumps around the battlefield

[Monkey-Boy]

Something in GMoF should extend the crit-range of wraps at a minimum.

[LavidDynch]

When we look at what sev wrote about plans i sadly must say that a monk revamp is not even close.
From what he is saying, this year is booked with ranged spell power, rogue, druid, fsoul, artie and "maybe" fighter.

Only thing monks will get is who knows, maybe a nerf to monkchery.
I mean, wraps builds are not that bad when it comes to dps.
When you compare to fighters n such they are actually good now.
Not even a 1/8th of what barbs and palies can do tho /but that is a issue of harmor +super strong capstones



I agree fully with you, since my 2 fav playstyles in ddo are monk and sorc.
And no not a shuriken throwing or bow using or staff using monk.
A simple fist monk that punches, kicks and jumps around the battlefield

This is no re-vamp, merely a fix.

And fighters like the old cetuss build still do awesome red named DPS due to their superior crit range...

[LavidDynch]

Something in GMoF should extend the crit-range of wraps at a minimum.

Something --- anything-- agreed.

[FranOhmsford]

While Earth Stance is active,

THIS ^ is my biggest issue with Monks as is!

Why is it that only Earth Stance gets these bonuses?

Why is it that half of the Shintao Tree is completely pointless unless you're Earth Stance?


Back in the day we've had Wind Stance and Water Stance be the blatant #1 choice with the other stances relegated to Flavour Builds.
Today it's Earth Stance!

When are the Devs going to realise that ALL FOUR stances need to be equally viable!?!

[LavidDynch]

THIS ^ is my biggest issue with Monks as is!

Why is it that only Earth Stance gets these bonuses?

Why is it that half of the Shintao Tree is completely pointless unless you're Earth Stance?


Back in the day we've had Wind Stance and Water Stance be the blatant #1 choice with the other stances relegated to Flavour Builds.
Today it's Earth Stance!

When are the Devs going to realise that ALL FOUR stances need to be equally viable!?!

Windstance is still better DPS, up to the point where you'd get one shotted!

Earthstance also has the biggest anti-fun - decreased movement speed and slowest way to regen KI -- at least some balance, I guess...

[HatsuharuZ]

For a start, how about adding +1 crit range to the Master and Grandmaster versions of Fire Stance?

[LavidDynch]

For a start, how about adding +1 crit range to the Master and Grandmaster versions of Fire Stance?

Very good suggestion, and not impossible to implement.

[FranOhmsford]

Windstance is still better DPS, up to the point where you'd get one shotted!

Earthstance also has the biggest anti-fun - decreased movement speed and slowest way to regen KI -- at least some balance, I guess...

You've stated the argument against your own point!

In Windstance you're GOING TO GET one-shotted - Over and Over and Over and Over again!
30% Dodge still means you're going to get hit for FULL DAMAGE 2/3 times!
The ONLY PRR I know of that a Windstance/Waterstance or Sunstance Monk can get is item based which maxes at 24? - That's nothing compared to the PRR that pretty much every other character in the game can get!

Yes Earthstance is annoyingly slow which is why I personally hate it!
BUT that doesn't mean more people are going to play Earthstance JUST that LESS people will play MONKS!

[Blackheartox]

I mean its not much, but i personally would like if they fixed kta and all similar effects to actually work with wraps or int/damage or dex/damage.
Actually nothing like that works.
I havent tested personally but i also heard that holy sword does not aply to unarmed.

(most recently is that mark gloves light damage doesnt work)
Also i never got why momentum swing doesnt work with wraps.

If they at least fixed stuff to work with wraps, it would be really nice for monks.

[Miow]

You've stated the argument against your own point!

In Windstance you're GOING TO GET one-shotted - Over and Over and Over and Over again!
30% Dodge still means you're going to get hit for FULL DAMAGE 2/3 times!
The ONLY PRR I know of that a Windstance/Waterstance or Sunstance Monk can get is item based which maxes at 24? - That's nothing compared to the PRR that pretty much every other character in the game can get!

Yes Earthstance is annoyingly slow which is why I personally hate it!
BUT that doesn't mean more people are going to play Earthstance JUST that LESS people will play MONKS!

Or adjust their play style I'm in the process of swapping to a thrower build.

[Blackheartox]

You've stated the argument against your own point!

In Windstance you're GOING TO GET one-shotted - Over and Over and Over and Over again!
30% Dodge still means you're going to get hit for FULL DAMAGE 2/3 times!
The ONLY PRR I know of that a Windstance/Waterstance or Sunstance Monk can get is item based which maxes at 24? - That's nothing compared to the PRR that pretty much every other character in the game can get!

Yes Earthstance is annoyingly slow which is why I personally hate it!
BUT that doesn't mean more people are going to play Earthstance JUST that LESS people will play MONKS!

With past lifes in wind stance 36 +30 +5. 71 max ( missed some things prolly)
With past lifes in earth stance and a twist +shintao upgrade. 36 +30+5+15+15+15 116 max, i prolly missed some things

Keep in mind that you also have 30% dodge and 25% incorp from shadow fade and possible 50% conceal from displace.
Earth stance, yes its annoying but on a pure monk its sadly the best option for survival.
Dont forget to count in deception procs from whirlwind spam and deception imp deception when beating on a red named.
Monk has survival, enough imo.

Mitigation and damage avoidance is ok, but thing is, why bother when you can just put on harmor and run around semi naked.
Dps for unarmed sucks, that is the only issue.
Specifically boss dps is sub par compared to modern melles.

But now on the other side, combine monk with tree..
And the defense skyrockets

[painkiller3]

For a start, how about adding +1 crit range to the Master and Grandmaster versions of Fire Stance?

this is a very good suggestion and would get people to run in fire stance. +1

[FranOhmsford]

With past lifes in wind stance 36 +30 +5. 71 max ( missed some things prolly)
With past lifes in earth stance and a twist +shintao upgrade. 36 +30+5+15+15+15 116 max, i prolly missed some things

Keep in mind that you also have 30% dodge and 25% incorp from shadow fade and possible 50% conceal from displace.
Earth stance, yes its annoying but on a pure monk its sadly the best option for survival.
Dont forget to count in deception procs from whirlwind spam and deception imp deception when beating on a red named.
Monk has survival, enough imo.

Mitigation and damage avoidance is ok, but thing is, why bother when you can just put on harmor and run around semi naked.
Dps for unarmed sucks, that is the only issue.
Specifically boss dps is sub par compared to modern melles.

But now on the other side, combine monk with tree..
And the defense skyrockets

1) We shouldn't have to multiclass to get a viable build!

2) I've always thought that Monks were supposed to be unable to use ANY of their abilities while armoured?
I've never understood what the appeal is of taking two monk levels if you're going to be wearing armour?
AND
I've got serious and very well-known issues with the 2 Monk splash anyway!

3) I assume you mean Shadow Veil? If so that's 15 ki every minute to keep up and means you lose a Stunning Fist each time or worse a chance at Quivering Palm or Banishment etc.

4) Displacement from where exactly? Are we supposed to fit UMD on a Monk AND keep a 100 stack of Scrolls handy at all times?

5) And people constantly state that Past Lives don't mean anything?
It's a bit unfair to make the first two Monk lives hurt that bad don't you think?
OR if you've grabbed those Epic Past Lives on a different class {who knows why} then having to be a minimum of 2nd Life to have a viable Non-Earthstance Monk seems a bit off too!

[Blackheartox]

1) We shouldn't have to multiclass to get a viable build!

2) I've always thought that Monks were supposed to be unable to use ANY of their abilities while armoured?
I've never understood what the appeal is of taking two monk levels if you're going to be wearing armour?
AND
I've got serious and very well-known issues with the 2 Monk splash anyway!

3) I assume you mean Shadow Veil? If so that's 15 ki every minute to keep up and means you lose a Stunning Fist each time or worse a chance at Quivering Palm or Banishment etc.

4) Displacement from where exactly? Are we supposed to fit UMD on a Monk AND keep a 100 stack of Scrolls handy at all times?

5) And people constantly state that Past Lives don't mean anything?
It's a bit unfair to make the first two Monk lives hurt that bad don't you think?
OR if you've grabbed those Epic Past Lives on a different class {who knows why} then having to be a minimum of 2nd Life to have a viable Non-Earthstance Monk seems a bit off too!

That is a pure monk fran what i wrote.
Not a multiclass but a pure 20 monk.
You can get displace from shroud items, no umd needed.
You can be a elf and get displace.
You can never spend your ki if you have whirlwind

Monks survival is just fine as it is, yes its not bulletproof like harmor, but its fine for ee.
What isnt is that most stuff is broken with monk and the dps lacks.

Yes meant veil, its super easy to keep it up.
Only ones that have issues to do so are ranged monks

[Alfhild]

Kill two birds with one stone: buff TWF feats, perhaps with some Melee Power, and you will boost TWF monks and Tempests, both of whom need some DPS loving.