Let's Talk: Killer DM Mode

[Powskier]

Add a perma death feel to it. Get 1 time to die and be raised then auto kicked from group and can't re-enter for 24 hours.

that is a good one..some sort of permadeath is quite appealing as this game gets easier. Only takes a few weeks to casually build a decently equipped lvl28 character

[Tinco]

Playing as a Paladin Vanguard may have seriously clouded your perspective. But it brings up one interesting point in game dev philosophy: What kind of build is the anchor point for a given difficulty? The eComp/hComp Paladin Vanguard or the 18 Ranger/2 Fighter TWF with 3 past lives? Where do you draw the line between a deliberate flavour build and one that's just not 'in the current meta'? Balancing in DDO gets infintely more difficult when you don't set that anchor to the current fotm.

[legendkilleroll]

If people want to brag they can continue to do it in the achievment section of forums, oh sorry you need your name shown to more people, no thanks

[BigErkyKid]

What then?

Honestly, giving us the leaderboard with a new difficulty would go a long way in my case. Not because I expect to be n1 and then come here to tell everyone how to play. Rather, because if it is truly challenging, I expect parties of friends to try to bring a balanced group for those quests and to try to think as opposed to sleep walk.

Honestly, that should have been the focus instead of MOAR TR GRINDS. eTRs are probably the most dreadful thing I have seen in a long while in a game. Its so mind numbing, so incredibly grindy, so NOT what I expect associated with the brand DnD that...let's leave it here :P

[legendkilleroll]

Honestly, giving us the leaderboard with a new difficulty would go a long way in my case. Not because I expect to be n1 and then come here to tell everyone how to play. Rather, because if it is truly challenging, I expect parties of friends to try to bring a balanced group for those quests and to try to think as opposed to sleep walk.

Honestly, that should have been the focus instead of MOAR TR GRINDS. eTRs are probably the most dreadful thing I have seen in a long while in a game. Its so mind numbing, so incredibly grindy, so NOT what I expect associated with the brand DnD that...let's leave it here :P

You dont have to grind, why do people think they have to get everything in the first few days, you dont get anything for doing it first

Leaderboards as the focus, haha

[bartharok]

Honestly, giving us the leaderboard with a new difficulty would go a long way in my case. Not because I expect to be n1 and then come here to tell everyone how to play. Rather, because if it is truly challenging, I expect parties of friends to try to bring a balanced group for those quests and to try to think as opposed to sleep walk.

Honestly, that should have been the focus instead of MOAR TR GRINDS. eTRs are probably the most dreadful thing I have seen in a long while in a game. Its so mind numbing, so incredibly grindy, so NOT what I expect associated with the brand DnD that...let's leave it here :P

You will probably grind the leaderboards as well, so no peace from grind there.

[Thrudh]

eTRs are probably the most dreadful thing I have seen in a long while in a game. Its so mind numbing, so incredibly grindy, so NOT what I expect associated with the brand DnD that...let's leave it here :P

I never understand why people do things they dislike...

When eTRing becomes grindy for me, I change characters and do a heroic TR (nice change of pace playing the heroic quests again on a different character with different abilities), followed by a couple more eTRs until it starts feeling grindy again, then I change characters again...

If changing characters doesn't stop the grindy feeling, then I take a break and play a single-player game for a week or two, then come back to DDO and it's fun again.

As soon as I'm not having fun, I do something else...

I really don't understand the people who continue to grind and then complain about it. How can they not have the brains to stop grinding if they don't like grinding?

Do you really think it's possible for ONE game to keep you entertained 6 hours a day for 5+ years straight?

[legendkilleroll]

I never understand why people do things they dislike...

When eTRing becomes grindy for me, I change characters and do a heroic TR (nice change of pace playing the heroic quests again on a different character with different abilities), followed by a couple more eTRs until it starts feeling grindy again, then I change characters again...

If changing characters doesn't stop the grindy feeling, then I take a break and play a single-player game for a week or two, then come back to DDO and it's fun again.

As soon as I'm not having fun, I do something else...

I really don't understand the people who continue to grind and then complain about it. How can they not have the brains to stop grinding if they don't like grinding?

Do you really think it's possible for ONE game to keep you entertained 6 hours a day for 5+ years straight?

Well said!

I prefer playing epics, sometimes like you say if i feel im not enjoying as much a heroic TR(for me will still be iconic so only 5 heroic levels lol) with a different build will refresh me for when i get back to epics

[BigErkyKid]

You will probably grind the leaderboards as well, so no peace from grind there.

I don't think so. But I already have some people in mind to form a group to try to do well in them.

I never understand why people do things they dislike...
...
As soon as I'm not having fun, I do something else...

I have done exactly 2 eTRs. Go preach somewhere else. But I recognize that for the most part, this is all there is to do.

But how about we do not derail the thread with yet another Trudh lecture on how we should not be playing DDO if we dare to complain?

[Thrudh]

I play regularly with people who are eCompletionists and what not. I know what the routine is, I have run it with them.

That's your problem... Those people MAKE it a grind. You really should stop playing with them if you don't like grinds...

See my sig. It's seriously true... If you don't like grinding, stop grinding... Stop playing for xp/min like those eCompletionist people you know.

[FranOhmsford]

That's your problem... Those people MAKE it a grind. You really should stop playing with them if you don't like grinds...

See my sig. It's seriously true... If you don't like grinding, stop grinding... Stop playing for xp/min like those eCompletionist people you know.

Oy! First I had to stop doing what I disliked and now I have to stop playing? Make up your mind!

Lol and now it's Stop playing with your friends?

Come on Thrudh - Don't you think you're going a bit far here?

[BigErkyKid]

That's your problem... Those people MAKE it a grind. You really should stop playing with them if you don't like grinds...

See my sig. It's seriously true... If you don't like grinding, stop grinding... Stop playing for xp/min like those eCompletionist people you know.

Stop telling people what to do.

[Oxarhamar]

Stop telling people what to do.

He's right you know, change the way you play to something you enjoy will greatly improve your experience.

Sometimes it's the way we do things that makes them drab.

[legendkilleroll]

Stop telling people what to do.

Stop complaining about grind then, dont like it, dont do it, simple!

[BigErkyKid]

Stop complaining about grind then, dont like it, dont do it, simple!

What people complain about, myself included, is that the game has little else to offer.

Yes, I know, stop playing.

Now can we move back to what we were discussing?

[Silverleafeon]

It's an interesting discussion, and I just wanted to insert some random thoughts:

I am super pleased with the amount of discussion/information exchanges being made by you, Varg and Steel.

~ I don't think it is possible for a team of any size to create hand made content in any video game faster than the most dedicated players can consume it. We understand that we are in a perpetual content race with the players; we know that we will always lose that battle. The plan is that Temple of Elemental Evil will be big and fun and have good itemization. It will not keep the most engaged players entirely busy for the 3.5 months it will take for the Shavarath update to be finished. It just won't. We know this. You know this. We will try our best to make the content as re-playable as possible.

Some people enjoy repeating things more than others. My mom adored Packman, and I used to play Civ III historic settings over and over.

~ It is a rare and precious thing - maybe even close to impossible - for content to be challenging to a player that has run it many many times and memorized the ins and outs of that content. We can change bits of it to hit harder, throw more creatures at players, and have more evil tricks but once the players learn the ins and outs of those new changes the content will once again be easy. Unless it can randomly just kill off people, and we don't think that's really a "challenge."

Aye, that is why variations of character building are important. Have I played Haunted Halls as Class X yet?

In magic the gathering, the draw power is such you only play a portion of your deck against a portion of other decks so that each game of a match is different yet the same.

~ When we talk about a Killer DM mode we are talking about a new difficulty level for existing content with system changes to make it more challenging. It would not involve any additional customization of old content like randomized traps, additional difficulty on puzzles and the like.

Listens. I think Champions did a lot for the game. I would like to see red and purple name bosses vary their DR combos and features a certain amount. I would like to see a new monster called the Trap Mimic who thinks he can imitate minor traps in random locations.

I would like to see mimics become a permanent part of the game. Even if the turn in and frenzies where only each seaon.

~ The problem with making Epic Elite have more relative difficulty, even for new content, is the gaps between difficulties become larger and more players can fall into a situation where the previous difficulty is too easy but the next one up is too hard. On the other hand new levels of difficulty can cause the potential players grouping to fracture even more. We understand this. These conundrums are what keep us awake at night when we should be sleeping.

I understand that. You face an even bigger challenge in that if you make instant kill and crowd control ineffective then you negate a large portion of the variety thru character building. If you don't make "save or die" ineffective then some players will always complain "its too easy..."

~ I think the challenges in Terminal Delerium were in some ways the wrong kind of extra challenge.

Dying dozens of times in the glass cage on a toon who can go thru the dragon mask without dying any is no fun.

The dance off is fun. And fyi choosing Lord of Eye team to gain the Medusa Dance off with a Favored Soul/Cleric in the party who understands what Order's Wrath is useful for is very interesting.

~ The subject of a Killer DM mode is really a mad notion that is good for discussing the problems surrounding difficulty in an ongoing game. While it is theoretically possible to implement it, I think even the short discussion here shows the potential problems in design the idea presents. I am hoping that by bringing up these discussions I am not creating situations where the players are getting upset at these theoreticals.

Sev~

Nods in sympathy. Worry not, we love discussing these things with the gods of DDO. Chicken little actually behaves much better sitting and listening than wondering in the dark....

[Monkey-Boy]

If you find TWO eTRs "grindy", you need to quit playing right now.

As 60% of the players have already done? Great business plan!

Sigh . . .

[bartharok]

What people complain about, myself included, is that the game has little else to offer.

Yes, I know, stop playing.

Now can we move back to what we were discussing?

What people complain about is everything.

And grind IS a state of mind. Its when you drive for the finish instead of enjoying the journey. And there are a lot of ways to enjoy the journey, you just need to find one that suits you.

[bsquishwizzy]

The problem, outside of implementation time, we ran into is this; what could we possibly use to reward players for playing it? We don't want to add even more XP into the game. Higher level loot drops aren't really useful while leveling since it already out levels players on higher difficulties. No one is going to grind for power items if they will level past them quickly.

You know, you could kill maybe three or four birds with one stone if you simply created a set of randomized quests:

1) Random storylines (yes, this is possible using a matrix),
2) Random bosses,
3) Random traps,
4) Random optionals,
5) Static maps,
6) Random objectives (Kill X number of monsters, find 3 keys, etc.),
7) Scaled like current challenges, except push the difficulty level out to – say – lvl 40,
8) Use something similar the Eveningstar commendation system as turn-ins for rewards.

People who are tired of the same quests get something to go to when they want to do something different. People who want extremely hard content can test themselves by pushing the max difficulty level. People who farm have a mechanism (commendations) to farm for loot.

[IronClan]

Lol and now it's Stop playing with your friends?

Come on Thrudh - Don't you think you're going a bit far here?

"Dad my friends are into drugs, drinking heavilly and breaking into cars late at night, I hate all that stuff, but I have to do what they do because they are my friends..."

Dad: Um no... no you don't... you can find better friends, believe it or not friends are very transient in life, you'll understand when you get older and most of them have long since gone off in separate directions/got successful/richer/different friends/married/job/kids/problems/overdoses/jail/messed up/or dead."

"Dad how dare you tell me what to do! You must not have had REAL friends like mine! Where do you get off trying to controll my life!? Friends are the most important thing in life and they will be my friends forever!"

Dad: but you asked... sigh... Never mind you'll figure it out the same way I did I guess, meanwhile try to stay out of federal pound you in the ass prison mkay?.


If you're in a guild that never raids and you like raiding: you're doing it wrong
If you hang out with exploiters but you don't like cheating yourself of gameplay because they are handing you unlimited ings, and you LIKE earning things though intended gameplay, such as playing crucible EE but they ruin it by handing out globe augments like candy just to show off: you're doing it wrong.
If you hate farming the same quests over and over but all your friends do it so you do too, you're doing it wrong
If you hate flower sniffing and just want to go fast, but your guild is slow, you're doing it wrong
If you hate zerging and raiding but your guild only does that, you're doing it wrong.

This is not about telling you what to do, it's about introducing you to the fact that you are responsible for your choices even when they are dumb choices and make no sense for you.

I've found in life that a remarkable percentage of people can't see their own choices as actual choices they made, but see them as the inevitable result of factors outside of their own control. All of which is of course mostly self justification and outright self bull s***.