You know the game is not balanced properly when...

[Grailhawk]

... I DO NOT WANT MORE OP CLASSES THAT PACK EVERYTHING ON THEIR OWN! ....

So you want as Trinity game? I prefer the game a its going myself I don't like having to wait for x role in order to complete the quest I want to play. Packing the right amount of everything into a class also creates a balanced game.

Let me ask another question do you think that Bards, Paladins, and Barbarian all play the same way?

[slarden]

And people rightfully claim that the change is nowhere near what they did to the OP classes.

This sort of double standard is annoying. People with signature assassin and rogue builds are saying this isn't enough to make the class competitive and are being just brushed aside.

I am actually ok with it. I like that my assassin is a more advanced build that is more complicated to play effectively.

Rogues are really good, they are just hard to play due to lack of easy self-healing, PRR and AOE. The only thing I dislike is that the champion buff bypassing fortification is especially hard on rogues and other low-PRR builds because if I take a big crit my PRR can't mitigate enough damage. As long as people have raise scrolls it's all good. I can't avoid getting hit 100% of the time so I am going to die to crits once and a while. Previously my fortification was kept me from getting hit with those big crits.

[myliftkk_v2]

1. How about making support classes relevant?

2. How about removing blanket immunities and rolling back the remaining epic wards?

3. How about not designing quests with constant kill to advance mechanics?

4. And not giving bosses just a million hit points but some more interesting mechanics?

5. How about we end this stupid XP treadmill with rolf stomping solos?

1. Absolutely Not - The era of 30 minute waits should never return. The only thing less fun than waiting for a class, is not getting one and logging off.

2. They simply need to fix Charm in Epics. That's just overdue.

3. You mean puzzle mechanics that are wiki-able? Or skill checks that now your party needs to wait on #1 for?

4. I'll agree with HP being a poor stand-in for a "thinking" boss. You wouldn't like my solution though, because it's more Dark Souls than this crowd can handle.

5. XP has been a feature of advancement in RPGs (MMO or otherwise) since forever. If there's another viable system out there, that can be easily understood, I've not seen it. If you want a hardcore game (that can stil be exploited by builds), go play Dark Souls, that's what the rest of us do when we want death to mean something.

[Chai]

I need them to offer me a compelling reason to renew for another few months my subscription.

Short term strategies to boost sales that at the same time undermine the very foundation of the game and in addition are very hard roll back just stink of short-term greedy attitudes.

This was my argument back in 2011 - that battle was lost years ago. Turbine realized that too much of this generic-ification of classes already entered the game and they cant simply nerf it all back out.

Besides, this is an MMO with static quests - every adventure is not brand new like a D&D P&P game. Forced cooperation is tough to maintain in a game which does not have 90% of the mechanics P&P has to begin with.

[BigErkyKid]

Why is necessary the first time you're playing a class, that balance threads spawn like Tribbles? Because you can point at other people's threads and claim somehow that proves your nascent opinion is worth more than an experienced player's who's actually played that classes over time?
...
And yes, a game that is slowing bleeding players is going to need better solo abilities. No one wants to go back to 30 minute plus waits for rogues/clerics/CC. You hopefully realize it's not actually a game any longer when we're standing around waiting for a class to complete some content.

If I, a somehow experienced DDO player, can play barbs for the first time after years of gameplay and call them an easy button, then there is something very wrong. I am all in for listening to the people who have lots of experience with a class. I always do. They tell me the same, the only difference is that they pawn content even faster.

If you have read my threads, I have NEVER argued that we should incorporate forced cooperation mechanics. I always said that the beauty of DDO is that different roles could be fulfilled creatively by different classes, as opposed to a simple holy trinity.

But there is a big difference between waiting 30 mins for the right one class to show up and simply having demi gods being exceedingly good at everything walking around in the game. It is not alright that raw DPS is the only thing that matters for 99% of the game. It makes for a bland, washed out experience of what DnD is supposed to be.

[Vellrad]

You know the game is not balanced when a wizard is better off in heavy armour.

http://whybother.themuds.org/classes/runesmith/


You were saying?

[PermaBanned]

It is an old debate. Some people have fun playing competitively, others don't mind so much. No one is doing it "wrong". Usually, it is accepted that a balanced game caters to both publics, while one where some options are disproportionately better than others does not.

There is no balance to be had. If all pure classes are equally balanced among eachother, then min/max multi-class builds will still be uber. If multi-class builds are {somehow} balanced, then pure classes will be out of balance with eachother. As long as customization and flexibility of choice is available, there will always be a spectrum of gimp -> viable -> optimal. Balance is the cake, and the cake is a lie

[Monkey-Boy]

Yes, the tech exists - the question is to what degree it needs to be inflated to make rogue compete with barbarian on single target

The damage would need to be DOUBLE what is is now on live.

[BigErkyKid]

This was my argument back in 2011 - that battle was lost years ago. Turbine realized that too much of this generic-ification of classes already entered the game and they cant simply nerf it all back out.

Besides, this is an MMO with static quests - every adventure is not brand new like a D&D P&P game. Forced cooperation is tough to maintain in a game which does not have 90% of the mechanics P&P has to begin with.

Nerf some of the most obvious OP classes, then start pushing new content that focuses on party cooperation. Not including stupid 2 lever mechanics, that is. Rather, making solo more of an art as opposed to the easy way out it has become for a lot of quests.

This means buffing support abilities to reasonable levels, but not requiring them as a must to complete. Let people get creative, stealth, brute force correctly applied, etc. All these should be possible but by no means the default invis run - fight key mob - ddoor next quest rinse and repeat.

If you think the battle is lost, well that's your take on it. I think Sev is a smart producer. I think that if the winds change, he will throw at us different proposals.

[slarden]

There is no balance to be had. If all pure classes are equally balanced among eachother, then min/max multi-class builds will still be uber. If multi-class builds are {somehow} balanced, then pure classes will be out of balance with eachother. As long as customization and flexibility of choice is available, there will always be a spectrum of gimp -> viable -> optimal. Balance is the cake, and the cake is a lie

Very much this.

I thought the whole purpose of the balance changes was so that these pure classes that were considered weak could be brought up closer to multi-class FOTM builds.

I don't think pure paladin, barbarian or swashbuckler are top tier builds. They are just B+ builds that are really easy to make and gear up - like Shiradi casters always have been. A properly constructed treeman build or melee druid still beats them all.

People despise these builds because they are easy - not because they are the most over-powered builds in the game.

[BigErkyKid]

And for those who talk about whining and not giving solutions.

Here comes something that I think they did fine in LOTRO (it must have something good besides the landscapes...):

Allow for two /three different specs in a character that can be changed without cost between quests.

Most classes in DDO can heal / CC / DPS, but you need to focus a lot in one of the aspects. DPS trumps the rest because it is needed.

Imagine content in top difficulties demanded more of each of these (and other) abilities than a single toon can pack right now.

Then, in a party, people could coordinate the needs accordingly without the traditional CLERIC NEEDED for 30 mins.

[BigErkyKid]

I don't think pure paladin, barbarian or swashbuckler are top tier builds.
...
A properly constructed treeman build or melee druid still beats them all.

Serious? So to say that paladins, barbarians and swash are not top you need to bring obviously exploitative builds to compare?

Well I think that if the yardstick has become the tree exploit build, this says it all regarding the state of the game.

[Monkey-Boy]

Serious? So to say that paladins, barbarians and swash are not top you need to bring obviously exploitative builds to compare?

Well I think that if the yardstick has become the tree exploit build, this says it all regarding the state of the game.

And he's wrong, the 2015 barbs are even better than the cheater builds

[BigErkyKid]

So you want as Trinity game? I prefer the game a its going myself I don't like having to wait for x role in order to complete the quest I want to play. Packing the right amount of everything into a class also creates a balanced game.

Let me ask another question do you think that Bards, Paladins, and Barbarian all play the same way?

Nope, see my proposal down below.

The beauty of DDO is that different classes can play different roles.

A bard can tank, a paladin can heal.

What should be somehow encouraged is to bring balanced ABILITIES to top content, no balanced CLASSES.

[Monkey-Boy]

Nope, see my proposal down below.

The beauty of DDO is that different classes can play different roles.

A bard can tank, a paladin can heal.

What should be somehow encouraged is to bring balanced ABILITIES to top content, no balanced CLASSES.

No, just no. Going back to that would just be horrible.

[BigErkyKid]

No, just no. Going back to that would just be horrible.

I am lost here. No to OP pack it all classes, but yes to not being better in a cooperative party, speaking in a lose sense?

[myliftkk_v2]

If I, a somehow experienced DDO player, can play barbs for the first time after years of gameplay and call them an easy button, then there is something very wrong. I am all in for listening to the people who have lots of experience with a class. I always do. They tell me the same, the only difference is that they pawn content even faster.

If you have read my threads, I have NEVER argued that we should incorporate forced cooperation mechanics. I always said that the beauty of DDO is that different roles could be fulfilled creatively by different classes, as opposed to a simple holy trinity.

But there is a big difference between waiting 30 mins for the right one class to show up and simply having demi gods being exceedingly good at everything walking around in the game. It is not alright that raw DPS is the only thing that matters for 99% of the game. It makes for a bland, washed out experience of what DnD is supposed to be.

People like to play demigods. It's been this way since Populous.

There's no magic "balance" place to land the game on doing what you're suggesting. There never was, in your wildest dreams, balance in DDO.

Instead, there was an era of LFMs waiting around for very specific classes to fill very specific roles, and now there's not. There were very, very, few toons running around "creatively" filling those specialized roles effectively through unconventional means (which I had toons to do). But, there were loads of complaints about how said unconventional toon wouldn't be able to fill that role before the quest started (also experience this), and lovely "link gear" LFMs. We should never return to that era. It was barely tolerable to those of us who knew how to play well albient unconventionally and absolutely intolerable for new players who got berated in quest for builds/gear/noob playstyle. That era has passed, and good riddance to it.

You'd be far better off to focus your thread regeneration tools on supporting reactive content systems development and less time nit-picking apart every created input configuration option as if a holy grail of those options exist. I don't want developers focusing on nerfs, because frankly it's like missing the forest for the trees, the same tree you keep asking them to whack at time and time again. I'd rather they go back to working on things like champions and new reactive content systems changes that improve variability. Development time is a finite resource, and you're content to waste it over and over on the things that make the least difference in improvement of experience.

[Grailhawk]

Nope, see my proposal down below.

The beauty of DDO is that different classes can play different roles.

A bard can tank, a paladin can heal.

What should be somehow encouraged is to bring balanced ABILITIES to top content, no balanced CLASSES.

That still sounds like type casting (trinity style) players into roles, if I understand correctly your saying a bard can tank because he has the "balanced abilities" that let him tank? But if he has to give up his DPS or Healing to do that well that's exactly what trinity style requires, make a choice in what role you will play even if its not locked in at the class level its still trinity its just locked in at the AP or Gear or xxx level.

[Vint]

Wrong.

All I am asking from you is what do you purpose to fix the balance issues? How do you plan to do this in a feasible way? Telling people that are “wrong” or drink Turbine Kool-Aid because they do not agree with you is not the answer.

Coming up with an idea on how you would fix it would be nice to hear. Remember that your ideas for change would have to take into account the population. Turbine will not listen to an idea that will cost payers/players.

[Monkey-Boy]

I am lost here. No to OP pack it all classes, but yes to not being better in a cooperative party, speaking in a lose sense?

Saying no to the idea you mentioned from LoTR.