You know the game is not balanced properly when...

[slarden]

ONLY DROW have SR numbers that are stupid high. With the few exceptions like Will-o-wips and a few other odd mobs.

Devils and other fiends will be high, but only drow should be insanely high.

You would think but the wiki says CR + 10 is the minimum spell resistance. What will the trash be in EE Vale? CR 75 or so?

[Chai]

I don't need to see how other classes are balanced to realize that for my taste paladins, bards and barbarians are too powerful.

I think this is false because without those other classes you have nothing to compare paladin, bard and barbarian to.

I don't care if other classes are buffed to that level. I do NOT like this new washed out classes. DPSing paladins, self healing barbarians and all around awesome bards.

I do not like the balance against quests of those classes. Hence, I don't need to wait for other classes to be buffed to this level to voice my opinion.

This battle was not lost with the class revamps, this battle was lost when every class could build good enough self healing in to not depend on other classes for recovery. This happened incrementally over a number of years and did not start with the more recent revamps. When players began pushing for a more solo-able game, they began insisting that Turbine build in self healing options. They also insisted that limitless purchasable healing remain, both in game and in the store. This has nothing to do with the current class revamps.

When PM, clerics, FvS, sorcs, were soloing the toughest game content and self healing, where was this feedback then? Now that some melee classes can do the same it just now became a huge issue? I disagree. Classes did not just become washed out. Many were already that way in 2010. Where was the recognition of the issue then? Did people just forget the FvS DOT and run debacle? Did people just forget the PM scroll farming hilarity? Now that melee can solo tough content with just as much (little) effort it just became an issue?

No, its always been an issue, but people were perfectly content to ignore it.

[Monkey-Boy]

You would think but the wiki says CR + 10 is the minimum spell resistance. What will the trash be in EE Vale? CR 75 or so?

The Wiki is wrong. That's the Formula for DROW SR.

[Chai]

SR is supposed to be based on level, not CR. Making it CR is in part what pushed the FvS and wizard TR to be so much more needed for DC casting than any other TR is needed for any other role.

[brzytki]

Paladins having heal amp is strange to begin with, atleast now barbs heal the same % as a standard pali

Lol, because pally-level heals should be a standard, even for a class that should not have any heals to begin with.

Bards should be about social skills and buffs, true but: a rog sould never be dps but a trap/skill master with the occasional back stab skill, not the hack and slash monster people think he should be.

This could be true ONLY if trap/skill mastery mattered in end-game (in other words, PRR and MRR not working on traps) AND rogue had better defenses/healing. Actually, no. In a game that's revolving around DPS every melee class should have balanced (read: be within 5-10% of the DPS of others, single target).

Uhm.... barbs should have more hp then a rog (d6 vs a d12 with con being the first or second most important stat?), a barb should have better prr to compensate for the lack luster dr,- in the game, a barb is a fronline melee, a rog is not, it's a backstabber. The better healing stems out of the game mechanics of ddo. A barb should have better alround dps, a rog should only have situational dps (sneack attack), this isn't WoW.

If you take each of those things separately, then it might be true in PnP (apart from barb heals) but it's an MMO. Combine all of those things (HP, PRR, DPS, heals, traps that don't matter anymore) and there is no appeal in playing a rogue for a standard player apart from flavor. And when barely anyone plays the class, it gets shelved.

Bards are op, or rog is gimped, or mobs are badly statted or... and the list goes on.....

No, the list doesn't go on and on. Rogue is not gimped. Bard is just OP. I mean, it doesn't take even 5 minutes to figure out that if you put skill mod in the DC of an insta-kill it will be OP.

thats not a twf ranger but a twf paladin

That's the point.

[slarden]

doesnt seem like its continuing with the rogue changes, they arnt getting self heals like barbarians did

Yes rogues are getting a very tiny bump, but they needed it. The biggest weakness - lack of PRR and self-healing aren't being addressed so the devs are being much more careful about adding power.

I am actually fine with that. I like that assassins are a very complicated and difficult build to play effectively. As long as someone in the party can raise it's all good.

[slarden]

The Wiki is wrong. That's the Formula for DROW SR.

I hope you are right!

[Wipey]

I don't know guys, Palemasters are on trash duty all the time in Thunderholme raids, you know, because they are the best trash killers.

Hahaha ! Got you, noone brings casters to raids or quests ( few stubborn old farts might bust out their unplayed uber PM sitting at cap to help friends and that's it ) anymore. Lolz, try to get a cleric or stoner for Mod.
Any words are reduntant at this point, let's enjoy "Hi I have a melee and I pop Blitz and stuff dies Online" ( no really, I do ).
Doom™ ?

[Vint]

-1

Total straw man.

The OP did not list any of those things and his post has nothing to do with those whiny "entitlement" issues you list. "Entitlement" is the lazy, catchall to decry anyone who thinks the game could be improved.

Your wrong, bud. If you look back over the years you will see that there have been constant nerds to classes/builds/races. When Turbine finally does listen to the cry babies and nerds, what happens?

Something just as powerful comes along. Something else rules the roost. There has never been balance in this game and there has not been one good idea on how achieve this without starting from scratch on everything.

Give me a good waY to fix things, I'll listen. Constantly crying waa does not get it.

[Monkey-Boy]

I don't know guys, Palemasters are on trash duty all the time in Thunderholme raids, you know, because they are the best trash killers.

I'm not sure I consider 50k HP red-name casters to be trash.

[Monkey-Boy]

Give me a good waY to fix things, I'll listen. Constantly crying waa does not get it.

You know what works worse than torches and pitchforks? Taking the "all is fine" attitude and just accepting everything Turbine stuffs into this game without comment.

[Chai]

-1

Total straw man.

The OP did not list any of those things and his post has nothing to do with those whiny "entitlement" issues you list. "Entitlement" is the lazy, catchall to decry anyone who thinks the game could be improved.

Is it the game that needs to be improved or the play experience that needs to be improved. Ill give yall a hint here. Both are subjective, but only one doesn't cause loss of players.

Improving the play experience means not nerfing every single time an update comes out due to the knee jerk reaction of those who are overly concerned with how powerful everyone else is. If they nerf all the time, the loudest subjective opinion might be that the game is improved, because those with the quietest subjective opinions - those whose fun was ruined by constant nerfs due to over-reaction, leave and play another game where their time investment (and possible money investment) is not invalidated by nerfs after each new update.

[Ancient]

I draw the line at DC wizard casters having to melee red named mobs. It absurd.

That is the penalty for being overpowered against everything else.

[Chai]

You know what works worse than torches and pitchforks? Taking the "all is fine" attitude and just accepting everything Turbine stuffs into this game without comment.

Not supporting nerfs after every update due to the same 10 people claiming what just got revamped is OP =/= all is fine.

I fully expect things that just got revamped to be more powerful than those things which they are compared to, which did not get revamped yet.

[Vint]

You know what works worse than torches and pitchforks? Taking the "all is fine" attitude and just accepting everything Turbine stuffs into this game without comment.

All is not well. I would happily join you in that crusade. My position is being realistic. To begin to achieve balance you would have to eliminate multi classing as well as redoing all enhancements. Considering the state of the game and the resources needed for such a project is ludicrous.

Not defending Turbine by anything I say. Just being realistic when the things wanted are not going to happen in this game.

[Monkey-Boy]

Not supporting nerfs after every update due to the same 10 people claiming what just got revamped is OP =/= all is fine.

Us "same 10 people" are right and everyone else is wrong.

Turbine should have fixed the post ENH-pass balance issues with nerfs, instead they swallowed the spider to catch the fly, and pretty soon they'll be choking on a cow.

I fully expect things that just got revamped to be more powerful than those things which they are compared to, which did not get revamped yet.

That's a sad expectation, though based on Barb>Pally>Bard it's probably true.

[Chai]

Us "same 10 people" are right and everyone else is wrong.

Turbine should have fixed the post ENH-pass balance issues with nerfs, instead they swallowed the spider to catch the fly, and pretty soon they'll be choking on a cow.

This again is favoring the play experience over immediate game balance. Keeping the play experience positive retains players, while nerfing after every update does not. You have to remember here that there is a market audience that pays for their progress in money as well as in time due to paid convenience. They cant nerf everything that gets bought and paid for without losing players.

That's a sad expectation, though based on Barb>Pally>Bard it's probably true.

Its the correct expectation. 2015 barbarian should be better than 2012 fighter. 2015 fighter should be on par with 2015 barbarian.

[slarden]

Its the correct expectation. 2015 barbarian should be better than 2012 fighter. 2015 fighter should be on par with 2015 barbarian.

If you look at the rogue changes they aren't making rogue an easy-button build.

[Monkey-Boy]

If you look at the rogue changes they aren't making rogue an easy-button build.

yet

[slarden]

yet

Based on the commentary I would say they are nearly done with change proposals.