Rogue - Thief-Acrobat Changes

[Ayseifn]

Heavy Armor is flat out terrible on Rogue-based Acrobats. Interestingly, the defense is still stellar. I was honestly surprised how much of a beating an acrobat can take. Test it on lama please and join me in the feedback thread, I feel lonely there.

Heavy armour is great as there's a lot of synergy. For 24 AP in sacred defender you get 6 saves, 3 MDB, 25 PRR/MRR, 20% HP, +6str/con and 10% movement. Since that's 4 paladin levels it also means a cheaper DM as you don't need to burn a twist and it opens up metamagics.

Tried a few acrobats on Lamannia and the only one I thought worked better as mostly rogue was a Bladeforged similar to the Zeus build. You can get enough HP and ref for Roll to be alright while staying str based, only bad thing is that Mithral Body starts at 5 MDB so your dodge will be low if you go that route. Master of Forms is workable but AP/feats/twists were too tight for my liking, still had 21% dodge with Mithral Body so not terrible I guess.

[Severlin]

We will be catching up on this thread in the next couple of days. Player feedback won't be incorporated into the next Lamannia build but we will be going through it and discussing it before the update goes live.

Sev~

[mna]

We will be catching up on this thread in the next couple of days. Player feedback won't be incorporated into the next Lamannia build but we will be going through it and discussing it before the update goes live.

I do hope you'll manage to fit in a second Lamannia build for final testing in that case...


Sheesh, maybe I'm just spoiled from having been involved with software development for a strictly regulated field.

[Blackheartox]

Wow sev, new acrobat after tumle effect is pretty amazing, capstone is... good now, like really good.
I totally dont think splashing monk is worth it now

[FlaviusMaximus]

Haven't been keeping up, have any changes to Sweeping Strikes (besides the AP cost) been made so far?

[davmuzl]

~ We know the various trip DCs are borked, and when we look into those Sweeping Strikes will also get looked into.

Does this mean we can get the higher of str or dex to all trip DCs (both in the tree and and the feats)?

I didn't read most of this thread, but I noticed that when watching the video preview. Since it looks to me that this tree supports both stats (you get the choice in t3 and t4 and the capstone gives both) it would only make sense if the rest also supported both styles. It also doesn't really make sense when some trip abilities use dex and some use str. There would still be good reasons to go with either style (simply focusing on dex is easier, going for str allows to use rage bonuses), not like when Assassinate used dex which is easier to get higher and saves AP compared to int.

[Tinco]

Just a simple post to keep this thread and some hope alive. All points from Lammania Feedback still stand.

[dualscissors]

So are thief acrobats generally happy with the changes, or are few players implementing the acrobat build, hence not having much to say?

I'm running an Assassin but have dipped deeply into Acrobat. Rogue PRR and self-healing are very weak - and that is still the case after the update - but I'm feeling some degree of noticeable difference in dodge-based defense against melee attacks. I'm not wielding a staff so I have nothing to say about TA damage after the update.

[Severlin]

We have finished our testing, comparing the Thief-Acrobat's DPS and mitigation to a wide variety of build in both heroic and epic content. We have some changes coming to improve its performance.

Rogue

Sneak Attack damage now scales with 150% Melee Power or Ranged Power (depending on weapon). Previous: 100% Melee Power or Ranged Power.


Rogue - Thief-Acrobat


Innate Abilities

Cartwheel Charge: After tumbling you gain a +2 Morale bonus to Strength and Dexterity for 12 seconds. Passive: +2 Maximum Dodge, +20% Doublestrike. Previous: +5% Doublestrike.


Tier One

Acrobat Staff Training damage with staves increased from +1 to +2.


Tier Three

Acrobat Staff Training damage with staves increased from +1 to +2.

Sweeping Strikes - +1/3/5(W) to all nearby enemies and trips them. The trip DC is 10/14/18 + Rogue Level + Dexterity Mod + Trip Bonuses. The enemy rolls Balance to negate the trip. Previous: +1/+2/+3(W), the Trip DC was 10 + half Rogue level + Dex Mod.


Tier Five

Acrobatic Staff Training: +10 Melee Power, +3 to hit and +3 damage with quarterstaves. Previous: No Melee Power.

Sev~

[Tinco]

Apprechiated.

I'm really, really torn on the insane power of taking both 18 cores of Assassin + Acrobat. This will probably be the only sensible thing left to build for now. My agenda of keeping deep multiclassing viable has failed.

[oradafu]

These are good points. We will watch for these things. That doublestrike might need to change to be staff specific.

(As an aside, tumbling every 12 seconds will tank your DPS pretty hard.)

Sev~

Finally the truth is being told by a Dev.

So drop in attack speed with staff when moving plus tumbling really does drop the DPS of Acrobats.

[oradafu]

Apprechiated.

I'm really, really torn on the insane power of taking both 18 cores of Assassin + Acrobat. This will probably be the only sensible thing left to build for now. My agenda of keeping deep multiclassing viable has failed.

As I said in the Assassin thread, I don't see it. I'd love to see the build where an Acrobat can gain the 18 core in Assassin without giving up too much. I'm just not seeing it right now though.

[Tinco]

A short lowballed mathematical interlude regarding Lethality:

w/o Lethality:

Approximate base hit damage at 50 MP: 180
Crit /w Sireth: 13-20/x3, mod 1.75
Low estimated Seeker: 16
Damage per hit: ( 11*180 + 8*3*196 ) / 20 = 334.2

w/ Lethality:

Approximate base hit damage at 50 MP: 180
Crit /w Sireth: 13-20/x4, mod 2.15
Low estimated Seeker: 16
Damage per hit: ( 11*180 + 8*4*196 ) / 20 = 412.6

Lethality is about 25% more base damage for Acrobats. That's a magnitude basically unachievable by any other sensible means in this game. As such I have to come to the conclusion that this will be the new default for acrobats. Whether the capstone is desirable or 18rog/2x will be better is the only interesting question left. Tentatively, 18 rogue/2pal might be the obvious favorite.


@oradafu: What are you giving up? Monk stances? 18 core is better than the whole GM Air stance. Dodge? Nimbleness is worth 10 AP. PRR? Not worse than before with Light Armor, as monk multiclass is dead. Scroll Mastery? I never used Scrolls in Epic content. You however gain Assassin's Trick and Killer amongst others. One crit multi is just that strong for Acrobats, it's really basically not debatable. Acrobats don't need to tumble unless they want the capstone, 2 dex is nothing in the grand scheme of things - there's no DPS tanking there.

[bbqzor]

Cartwheel Charge: After tumbling you gain a +2 Morale bonus to Strength and Dexterity for 12 seconds. Passive: +2 Maximum Dodge, +20% Doublestrike. Previous: +5% Doublestrike.

Is that right, from 5% to 20%? If so, that is a much more fitting addition considering it requires 18 levels, and has to compete with twf dps insofar as applying sneak attacks.

[T1/T2] Acrobat Staff Training damage with staves increased from +1 to +2.

Necessary update to parallel other 2hd +dmg enhancements, ty.

Sweeping Strikes - +1/3/5(W) to all nearby enemies and trips them. The trip DC is 10/14/18 + Rogue Level + Dexterity Mod + Trip Bonuses. The enemy rolls Balance to negate the trip. Previous: +1/+2/+3(W), the Trip DC was 10 + half Rogue level + Dex Mod.

Hm. Given that we have no idea what enemy balance scores are (generally) this is difficult to comment on. I will say that the dc formula is contemporary which is appreciated, and correctly uses trip bonuses. So its good to see on that end. Ultimately though, if it doesnt trip, thats a problem, and that wont be apparent without testing.

Acrobatic Staff Training: +10 Melee Power, +3 to hit and +3 damage with quarterstaves. Previous: No Melee Power.

Given that assassin just gained a ton of power, probably necessary.

Question, can nothing be done in this tree to address sneaks applying on glances, or quarterstaves glancing less in general? Also, has the character sheet attack speed issues present with acrobat been addressed? Those were reported on lama and not fixed on live... we need word on the speed stacking right. No speed means no way to hold up against other choices. Please ensure they are both working properly, and displaying properly on the character sheet when a staff is equipped. Thanks.

[oradafu]

A short lowballed mathematical interlude regarding Lethality:

w/o Lethality:

Approximate base hit damage at 50 MP: 180
Crit /w Sireth: 13-20/x3, mod 1.75
Low estimated Seeker: 16
Damage per hit: ( 11*180 + 8*3*196 ) / 20 = 334.2

w/ Lethality:

Approximate base hit damage at 50 MP: 180
Crit /w Sireth: 13-20/x4, mod 2.15
Low estimated Seeker: 16
Damage per hit: ( 11*180 + 8*4*196 ) / 20 = 412.6

Lethality is about 25% more damage for Acrobats. That's a magnitude basically unachievable by any other sensible means in this game. As such I have to come to the conclusion that this will be the new default for acrobats. Whether the capstone is desirable or 18rog/2x will be better is the only interesting question left.


@oradafu: What are you giving up? Monk stances? 18 core is better than the whole GM Air stance. Dodge? Nimbleness is worth 10 AP. PRR? Not worse than before with Light Armor, as monk multiclass is dead. Scroll Mastery? I never used Scrolls in Epic content. You however gain Assassin's Trick and Killer amongst others. One crit multi is just that strong for Acrobats, it's really basically not debatable. Acrobats don't need to tumble unless they want the capstone, 2 dex is nothing in the grand scheme of things - there's no DPS tanking there.

I'll have to play around with it. But right now, I'm not seeing the points. You may be right, but even ditching unimpressive stuff and not working properly stuff (such as everything in the chain after Quick Strike and the capstone), I'm still coming up a bit short on AP. I could try ditching everything in Mechanic and that would get me pretty close to the 31 AP needed for Lethality.

The AP is probably there, like you and others say. However, I'm just not seeing it right now.

[burningwind]

We have finished our testing, comparing the Thief-Acrobat's DPS and mitigation to a wide variety of build in both heroic and epic content. We have some changes coming to improve its performance.

Rogue

Sneak Attack damage now scales with 150% Melee Power or Ranged Power (depending on weapon). Previous: 100% Melee Power or Ranged Power.


Rogue - Thief-Acrobat


Innate Abilities

Cartwheel Charge: After tumbling you gain a +2 Morale bonus to Strength and Dexterity for 12 seconds. Passive: +2 Maximum Dodge, +20% Doublestrike. Previous: +5% Doublestrike.


Tier One

Acrobat Staff Training damage with staves increased from +1 to +2.


Tier Three

Acrobat Staff Training damage with staves increased from +1 to +2.

Sweeping Strikes - +1/3/5(W) to all nearby enemies and trips them. The trip DC is 10/14/18 + Rogue Level + Dexterity Mod + Trip Bonuses. The enemy rolls Balance to negate the trip. Previous: +1/+2/+3(W), the Trip DC was 10 + half Rogue level + Dex Mod.


Tier Five

Acrobatic Staff Training: +10 Melee Power, +3 to hit and +3 damage with quarterstaves. Previous: No Melee Power.

Sev~

that sound promising.. but also do consider add trip mod to elf/halfling/shardar kai.. for they should be the prime rogue class.. not dwarf and warforged(wich +3 racial tactical bonus via enhancement)

p.s. please add tactical bonus to random ring mod. also make augment and put them in GH shop. We need more option for tactical bonus. currently there are only 4~5 option, and most of them came from expansion. Making a class ability which require certain level to use certain named item to work is most unwise. Also as a f2p game not everyone have these pack..

[Ayseifn]

I'll have to play around with it. But right now, I'm not seeing the points. You may be right, but even ditching unimpressive stuff and not working properly stuff (such as everything in the chain after Quick Strike and the capstone), I'm still coming up a bit short on AP. I could try ditching everything in Mechanic and that would get me pretty close to the 31 AP needed for Lethality.

The AP is probably there, like you and others say. However, I'm just not seeing it right now.

AP is pretty tight but workable.


Bladeforged (11 AP)

• Improved Fortification
  
  1. Mechanist II
  2. Communion of Scribing III

Thief-Acrobat (38 AP)

• Staff Control, Stick Fighting, Tumbler, Kip Up, Cartwheel Charge
  
  1. Acrobat Staff Training, Thief Acrobatics III, Fast Movement
  2. Acrobat Staff Training, Quick Strike III, Haste Boost III
  3. Acrobat Staff Training, Sweeping Strikes III
  4. Acrobat Staff Training, Improved Defensive Roll III
  5. Staff Specialization, Acrobatic Staff Training, Spinning Staff Wall

Assassin (31 AP)

• Knife in the Darkness, Dagger in the Back, Assassin's Trick, Nimbleness, Lethality
  
  1. Poison Strikes: Heartseeker, Shiv III, Sneak Attack Training, Stealthy III
  2. Venomed Blades III, Sneak Attack Training
  3. Critical Mastery III, Sneak Attack Training
  4. Execute, Weakening Strikes, Sneak Attack Training

[Ayseifn]

Lethality and Cartwheel Charge are now no brainers IMO, which limits build diversity pretty massively. Crusader is now dead since I'll be sitting at 65% doublestrike most of the time so the epic moment is already 15% wasted DS, throw in some bard buffs and better DS items and it only gets worse(could be sitting at an almost perma 83%).

Will have to play with Cartwheel Charge to see how tedious it is first I guess, could still be unfun and bad.

[oradafu]

AP is pretty tight but workable.


Bladeforged (11 AP)

• Improved Fortification
  
  1. Mechanist II
  2. Communion of Scribing III

Thief-Acrobat (38 AP)

• Staff Control, Stick Fighting, Tumbler, Kip Up, Cartwheel Charge
  
  1. Acrobat Staff Training, Thief Acrobatics III, Fast Movement
  2. Acrobat Staff Training, Quick Strike III, Haste Boost III
  3. Acrobat Staff Training, Sweeping Strikes III
  4. Acrobat Staff Training, Improved Defensive Roll III
  5. Staff Specialization, Acrobatic Staff Training, Spinning Staff Wall

Assassin (31 AP)

• Knife in the Darkness, Dagger in the Back, Assassin's Trick, Nimbleness, Lethality
  
  1. Poison Strikes: Heartseeker, Shiv III, Sneak Attack Training, Stealthy III
  2. Venomed Blades III, Sneak Attack Training
  3. Critical Mastery III, Sneak Attack Training
  4. Execute, Weakening Strikes, Sneak Attack Training

Ugh! Yeah, I've been messing around on Live with the AP and I can see it now. Unfortunately, it looks like it's going to move Acrobat into a cookie-cutter build without the fun acrobat flavor. Kind of like all Paladins back in the pre-tree days.

Lethality and Cartwheel Charge are now no brainers IMO, which limits build diversity pretty massively. Crusader is now dead since I'll be sitting at 65% doublestrike most of the time the epic moment is already 15% wasted DS, throw in some bard buffs and better DS items and it only gets worse(could be sitting at an almost perma 83%).

Will have to play with Cartwheel Charge to see how tedious it is first I guess, could still be unfun and bad.

Tumbling? Yes, it's unfun and it is tedious.

But at least it was increased way back from the original 3 or 5 second buff to 12 second buff.

It should still be longer since Tumbling can be cumbersome to do. Or at least including jumping and vaulting as including the Cartwheel Charge buffs.

[Nandos]

Is it too late to change Sweeping Strikes to use as a bonus the greater of Dexterity or Strength? I still see a good bit of Strength based Thief-Acrobats, especially on Half-Orcs.

Thanks