Rogue - Thief-Acrobat Changes

[Qezuzu]

Let's save Mechanic and/or Trap discussion for that eventual thread. Sorry for my derail.

Sev~

Is there an ETA for the mechanic thread?

[IronClan]

Sireth, by chance?

Sireth is steel.

[Ultramaetche1]

I agree with all of this.

easy fix for traps - make disable device work like MP for constructed traps...

I was too lazy to post this over from DDOchat.

Thanks Uurl!

[maddong]

So I have a 15 fvs/5 rogue trapper in the garage.

Looking at thunderforged base damage (1 is no critical non hasted damage) and comparing to 15 fvs/3 bard/2 rogue, assuming 15% haste, 30% haste boost (also note SWF gets 30% more out of alacrity than THF does when stationary):

5 rogue with thunderforged staff: 1.6 attack speed (1 + 0.15 haste + 0.15 staff + 0.3 haste boost) x (1 base + 0.4 crit + 0.1 OC + 0.375 glancing = 1.875) = 3 (times no crit non hasted base damage)

3 bard/2 rogue with thunderforged swf 1.975 attack speed (1 + 0.75 (0.15 haste + 0.3 swf + 0.3 haste boost) * 1.3) x (1 base + 0.6 crit + 0.1 OC = 1.7) = 3.3575

5 rogue with sireth (level 23+): 1.6 attack speed x (1 + 0.8 + 0.1 + 0.375 = 2.275) = 3.64

3 bard/2 rogue with brush hook (level 15+): 1.975 x (1 + 1.2 + 0.1 = 2.3) = 4.5425

Plus the 3 bard picks up improved deception from the harper tree.

[Coldin]

The hold up is the player's council believes that Mechanic shouldn't go out without some kind of pass on constructed traps, and that's taking time as no trap pass was planned for this update.

Sev~

I rather agree. Traps are weak at best in heroic content, and worthless in epics. Though, I honestly don't know of a good way to improve them. Faster set speed, larger radius explosions, and more damage would all be a good start though.

[Ayseifn]

So I have a 15 fvs/5 rogue trapper in the garage.

Looking at thunderforged base damage (1 is no critical non hasted damage) and comparing to 15 fvs/3 bard/2 rogue, assuming 15% haste, 30% haste boost (also note SWF gets 30% more out of alacrity than THF does when stationary):

5 rogue with thunderforged staff: 1.6 attack speed (1 + 0.15 haste + 0.15 staff + 0.3 haste boost) x (1 base + 0.4 crit + 0.1 OC + 0.375 glancing = 1.875) = 3 (times no crit non hasted base damage)

3 bard/2 rogue with thunderforged swf 1.975 attack speed (1 + 0.75 (0.15 haste + 0.3 swf + 0.3 haste boost) * 1.3) x (1 base + 0.6 crit + 0.1 OC = 1.7) = 3.3575

5 rogue with sireth (level 23+): 1.6 attack speed x (1 + 0.8 + 0.1 + 0.375 = 2.275) = 3.64

3 bard/2 rogue with brush hook (level 15+): 1.975 x (1 + 1.2 + 0.1 = 2.3) = 4.5425

Plus the 3 bard picks up improved deception from the harper tree.

I've also been looking at taking 3 bard on an acrobat and rocking SWF, better defence and looks like higher DPS too.

[oradafu]

I rather agree. Traps are weak at best in heroic content, and worthless in epics. Though, I honestly don't know of a good way to improve them. Faster set speed, larger radius explosions, and more damage would all be a good start though.

There's a ton of ways to make player traps better.

First, you hit on the three easiest ways, which are probably the only things we'll get from the Devs.
* Setting up traps faster absolutely needs to be a priority though. In fact, traps shouldn't take anytime at all setting up, they should just drop on the ground.
* The radius needs to be bigger, probably attached to Rogue/Arti levels.
* More damage, or at least scaling damage, will probably be the only thing the Devs focus on, unfortunately.

As I stated elsewhere, since the Devs ignored all my suggestions for hiding secret doors during the asinine True Seeing nerf, I'm not going to bother putting alot of effort into other suggestions for traps. They didn't like my free advice previous, so I'm not wasting my time giving a 20+ different options like I did then. But I will supply a few.

Both player traps and quest traps gain Hamstring. I don't know why Epic slicing and spiky traps in quests don't already do this.

Fire traps and grenades have a chance of causing blindness. Cold traps and grenades have a chance of freezing. Etc...

Artis and Rogues with training can set the traps remotely. One step further would be that multiple traps can be laid down and blown at the same time, remotely. We can freaking do it already in one quest.

Trappers should be able to make use of all Symbol spells scrolls for traps: Symbol of Flame, Symbol of Pain, Symbol of Persuasion, Symbol of Fear, Symbol of Stunning, Symbol of Weakness, and Symbol of Death.

I have several other ideas for traps, but I'm not wasting my time giving them since I'm not being paid.

[levy1964]

i have one question, after revmap acrobat, it's be still exclusive for staff only ? i ask becouse DnD 3.5 wiki say: Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Thief Acrobats are proficient with all simple weapons, as well as the sap, the shortsword, the whip, the bolas, the long staff, and the shuriken. Thief Acrobats are proficient with light armor but not with shields of any kind.

so this tree should be usefoul for TWF/staff/shuriken (all based on dex), what do u think guys ? it is good for u force us to staff only ?

[HastyPudding]

i have one question, after revmap acrobat, it's be still exclusive for staff only ? i ask becouse DnD 3.5 wiki say: Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Thief Acrobats are proficient with all simple weapons, as well as the sap, the shortsword, the whip, the bolas, the long staff, and the shuriken. Thief Acrobats are proficient with light armor but not with shields of any kind.

so this tree should be usefoul for TWF/staff/shuriken (all based on dex), what do u think guys ? it is good for u force us to staff only ?

...because the tree is focused on the quarterstaff. The majority of trees that focus on melee combat usually focus in a general 'class' of weapons, IE, assassin focusing on daggers/kukris but being able to use rapiers efficiently. The thief acrobat is more iconic for using the quarterstaff (tripping, extreme balance, acrobatics, pole vaulting, etc). I HIGHLY doubt this is going to change.

I wouldn't be opposed to the acrobat getting some minor proficiency with shuriken, but that's sort of stepping on the ninja spy's toes.

[oradafu]

i have one question, after revmap acrobat, it's be still exclusive for staff only ? i ask becouse DnD 3.5 wiki say: Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Thief Acrobats are proficient with all simple weapons, as well as the sap, the shortsword, the whip, the bolas, the long staff, and the shuriken. Thief Acrobats are proficient with light armor but not with shields of any kind.

so this tree should be usefoul for TWF/staff/shuriken (all based on dex), what do u think guys ? it is good for u force us to staff only ?

As Hastypudding said, shurikens are for monks. The Devs have made it abundantly clear that they weren't going to let any class or race intrude into Monk territory.

This is why Acrobats don't gain Slowfall, even though they should according to pnp. The Devs even shied away from giving Acrobats a flavorful immunity to fall damage since Tumble can't get high enough to negate all fall damage.

This is also why the Devs refused to add in the Halfling tree an ability to have throwing Manyshot type ability (since it intruded on 10k Stars.) or a Doubleshot when throwing.

[levy1964]

As Hastypudding said, shurikens are for monks. The Devs have made it abundantly clear that they weren't going to let any class or race intrude into Monk territory.

This is why Acrobats don't gain Slowfall, even though they should according to pnp. The Devs even shied away from giving Acrobats a flavorful immunity to fall damage since Tumble can't get high enough to negate all fall damage.

This is also why the Devs refused to add in the Halfling tree an ability to have throwing Manyshot type ability (since it intruded on 10k Stars.) or a Doubleshot when throwing.

hmm, but i still think there is somethink wrong with pure rogue atm, let's look on pure ranger ench tree, there is 1 tree "arcane archer" focus on bow, Tempest tree focus on TWF and Stalker support tree on both fight style depend on what we choice TWF on Ranged or...meyby both, this greate synergy betwean trees.

now look on Rogue, we have assasins tree focus on higher SA and assasinate ability, and acrobat tree focused on better DPS, but if u choice to be rogue Acrobatic (with staff), assasins tree still have synergy with staff acrobat, moar SA damage, killer ?, execute ?.

but if want to be assasins TWF, acrobat tree suck completly, no any synergy for TWF, staff only, there is what? no marcy ? it is so bad and uslesss tree completly on ppl who aspect on TWF/Assasins.

=
if u are Acrobat u have synergy with Assasins tree and Mechanic it's support tree
if u are Assasins don't have synergy with Acrobat tree and Mechanic support tree

so that's why i think this is.....stupid and bad planner tree completly for pure assasins who don't want Assasinate, who want be mayby STR build mayby ascpect totaly on DPS, and rogue DPS atm have one choice.....staff

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i think this is how i see good planner tree on rogUe

Assasins tree aspect:
-Stealth
-boost Sneak attack DMG
-debuff
Acrobat tree aspect:
-AoE staff DPS
-support TWF (old) Assasins style
-support Defence (dodge) on both style
Mechanic tree Aspect
-deadly sub-class for creating ambush (cround controll)
-massive AoE elemental dmg from mine (remote controll detonate)

this is how should look synergy, let my show u:

i want to by Acrobat aspect on AoE staff DPS with Debuffs and have options to create ambush (CC)
i want to by Assasins aspect on stealth, deadly SA dmg (boost from Acrobat my TWF style) and have option to massive AoE elemental DMG
i want to by Assasins aspect on Assasinate with support defence from acrobat and have deadly ambush options + massive AoE ele dmg
i want to be Acrobat aspect on TWF and Tactic with High SA dmg from Assasins tree and have option to create ambush


this is option to stay on pure and have many aspect on setup us playstyle, here is so many choice, and with good balanced all 3 tree this no mean this be OP....Dev's i want have choice this is why i play in DDO, for customization my personal playstyle

[oradafu]

hmm, but i still think there is somethink wrong with pure rogue atm, let's look on pure ranger ench tree, there is 1 tree "arcane archer" focus on bow, Tempest tree focus on TWF and Stalker support tree on both fight style depend on what we choice TWF on Ranged or...meyby both, this greate synergy betwean trees.

now look on Rogue, we have assasins tree focus on higher SA and assasinate ability, and acrobat tree focused on better DPS, but if u choice to be rogue Acrobatic (with staff), assasins tree still have synergy with staff acrobat, moar SA damage, killer ?, execute ?.

but if want to be assasins TWF, acrobat tree suck completly, no any synergy for TWF, staff only, there is what? no marcy ? it is so bad and uslesss tree completly on ppl who aspect on TWF/Assasins.

=
if u are Acrobat u have synergy with Assasins tree and Mechanic it's support tree
if u are Assasins don't have synergy with Acrobat tree and Mechanic support tree

so that's why i think this is.....stupid and bad planner tree completly for pure assasins who don't want Assasinate, who want be mayby STR build mayby ascpect totaly on DPS, and rogue DPS atm have one choice.....staff

Well, there was Faster Sneak, but alot of players claimed that only Assassins need it sneak. Replacing it in the Acrobat tree is Fast Movement.

Unless something's changed, Sly Flourish works on all weapons so it is useful for Assassins. Arguably Sly Flourish might even be better for Assassins than Acrobats.

Rogues can work without Subtlety, but Subtlety makes things much easier for Rogues. So there's another useful ability.

Many players prefer Haste Boost over Damage Boost, so there's another ability.

Shadow Doge just became much more useful without the Fort penalty, unfortunately the Devs dropped the +6 Dex bonus to +3.

Defensive Roll on its own sucks, but Improved Defensive Roll is better. If you're a pure Rogue, you might have picked up the feat since its the third best rogue feat, after Improved Evasion and Opportunist.

No Mercy is useful for Rogues, if Rogues could cause helplessness, which they can't once they enter Epics, thanks to Crippling Strike being completely worthless against Epic mobs.

As for Mechanics, they have all the Thieving and Trapper stuff, so there's useful stuff there.

So yeah, there's nothing useful for Assassins in the other Rogue trees. But the Devs have listened to Assassins since the Enhancement Trees were made to make sure Assassins were streamlined that way, with the Sneak Faster being the only thing they didn't cave-on the first go around. They even listened to Assassins that no other Rogue tree should gain extra Sneak Attack because they didn't want to spend points in the other trees in necessary.

[wiliamsane]

I know it is a little off-topic but while you are at it can you give some love to monk and Henshin Mystic .. notably Quick Strike- give it same cd as acrobat one and Thief Acrobatics- give it to mystic tree (maybe put it into Mystic Training) or is this wai and Henshin Mystic might get some love (if any) in future ? In my opinion stick monk can do much better with 2 levels of rogue instead of going pure , which is quite bad and these changes might help.

[brzytki]

You know .. since you are touching quarterstaves ... *wink*

Don't touch my stick! Err,.. I mean quarterstaff!

[FlaviusMaximus]

It's going to be hard to justify spending 6 AP for 3 dex (even if a little dodge is included) when we are used to spending 3 AP on 6 dex for the same ability. 2 tiers, 2 AP, 2 dex, and 2 dodge per tier is a more enticing middle ground.

[brzytki]

It's going to be hard to justify spending 6 AP for 3 dex (even if a little dodge is included) when we are used to spending 3 AP on 6 dex for the same ability. 2 tiers, 2 AP, 2 dex, and 2 dodge per tier is a more enticing middle ground.

Only when you look at it subjectively and compare to what we have on live now. When you look at it objectively, spending 6 APs for 3 DEX (among other bonuses) is still really good because the possibility to take more DEX is still here in the tree. You don't have to spend 10 APs in another tree, for example assassin, just to have an option of spending 2 more APs to get 1 more DEX.

[FlaviusMaximus]

Only when you look at it subjectively and compare to what we have on live now. When you look at it objectively, spending 6 APs for 3 DEX (among other bonuses) is still really good because the possibility to take more DEX is still here in the tree. You don't have to spend 10 APs in another tree, for example assassin, just to have an option of spending 2 more APs to get 1 more DEX.

I knew I should have addressed this point in the first post. The 2 AP per stat point cost is something that is generally only worth it on a caster that needs to squeeze out every drop of DC as possible, on shuriken builds that get a triple benefit from each stat point, or on weapon users that have points left over after taking everything else they need to take. In other words, 2 AP for 1 stat point is not a good value for a lot of classes and character types and would certainly not be a good value for dex based thief acrobats regardless of whatever imperfect AP costs already exist.

6 AP for +3 dex is not a wonderful incentive for making a dex based thief acrobat.

[Ayseifn]

The incentive for dex based should be a better Defensive Roll and a viable Sweeping Strike, but it doesn't really really work out that well at the moment. Roll requires a pretty insane level of investment to get to no fail and Sweeping Strikes is bad, will have to check Lama when it's up to check out the changes and know for sure though.

Right now I can go strength based, splash 2, 3, 4 or 15 paladin and even dumping dex at chargen I'll end up with a pretty high reflex save. +11 stat items x2, +6 stat tome x2, etc. etc. mean over +30 from stats alone to reflex while the cha part also adds to damage as well as giving me a viable stun that works great with no mercy. So lots of synergy, but can't get a no fail Roll without a lot of investment, it's ok though because it doesn't work in heavy armour so I just wear that instead. Other thing not many people bring up is that you need the THF feats now, back when they didn't do much for staves it was fine to drop them but not anymore, too much lost damage dealing.

I could also go int based and pick up Know the Angles, as long as I'm not behind by 10 or so for a dex build I'll have pretty much the same damage output. It'll cost me a feat if I want int to reflex saves but this opens up some ok synergies since now I only need int/con and a little str. Can splash paladin again and throw spare points into str/cha while still having max int and 16 con on a human, not uber may be some nice things from mechanic or assassin that work pretty with int.

Or I could go dex based, if I don't splash paladin I'll have similar reflex saves to the paladin build but still very far from a reliable Roll and low HP since no +6 con or +20% HP, leaving Sweeping Strikes as the only thing really keeping me here. Of course you could take paladin here too but you get no Divine Might, no greater stances, no movement bonus and no stun so kind of meh. Could take 3 druid levels too but ever since the Beguile nerf I haven't really played with it to know what does and doesn't stack(Does Fatal Harrier stack with Thief Acrobatics?), but even then I could just take 4 fighter and take heavy armour.

The other thing with non heavy armour builds is you're kind of forced down the path of monk, the +6 max dodge you get from the cores is pretty hard to overcome with light so that means robes which means monk if you want decent PRR. Doesn't help that henshin is a pretty weak tree either.

[Zephyrelli]

~ We know the various trip DCs are borked, and when we look into those Sweeping Strikes will also get looked into.

Sev~

Just wondering how STR become the ability modifier for Trip. During my brief time exploring the martial arts, I distinctly remember old kung-fu masters consistently putting younger, faster (DEX), stronger (STR) opponents on the floor. It would seem if anything, that tripping is based on knowledge (INT? WIS?) and experience (Chr Lvl?).

Now with regards, to T/A and quarterstaff use: the point of using a well placed lever to move an object is to mitigate the need for strength. Thus it would seem natural that a T/A armed with a quarterstaff would have greater success tripping applying either DEX or INT (or both cumulatively).

Just a few thoughts as you sort out the trip DCs.

[Tinco]

The other thing with non heavy armour builds is you're kind of forced down the path of monk, the +6 max dodge you get from the cores is pretty hard to overcome with light so that means robes which means monk if you want decent PRR. Doesn't help that henshin is a pretty weak tree either.

Heavy Armor is flat out terrible on Rogue-based Acrobats. Interestingly, the defense is still stellar. I was honestly surprised how much of a beating an acrobat can take. Test it on lama please and join me in the feedback thread, I feel lonely there.