Rogue - Thief-Acrobat Changes

[IronClan]

We in fact have data on what would happen if trip was automatic because of the tactical DC bug! Long story short it was too much.

Sev~

What that data can't tell you is that DDO was more fun to play when Tacticals weren't the sole purview of full ****** tactical specced melees.

I bet finding some middle ground would allow the game to be more fun, without it being no fail...

I know it sounds like I'm supporting broken no fail tacticals, but what I'm really saying is that tactical DC's are too far into the "must be fully specialized to get a reasonable DC range" IMO. Especially Trip, and the heavilly overly requisited Improved trip

[IronClan]

Oh boy it's BigErky's "what might happen if you get surrounded by mobs that only do physical damage, then don't kill any of them and just stand there and heal a set amount" "simulation"...

Look I honestly tried to give your "model" a second chance and understand what you compared in those graphs but I can't get past the moving goal posts and constantly changing inputs you insist on (I am referring to the inputs he used in the linked threads).

7% dodge on a Heavy armored character? Why? That's no longer a DPS character in my book. So you're comparing a tank to a pajam/light armored build now? And those results clearly... aren't very clear... Without a legend for the graphs it's hard to say. Not putting any stock in your "model" I've not troubled to decipher that from the code you guys were posting.

Why post a graph with cherry picked numbers like 7% dodge on a heavy and then not tell people how to read the graph? While posting your interpretation, and mentioning evasion as though your graphs take evasion into account (last I saw his graphs completely ignore elemental damage which skews the results towards heavy armor. It looks like you are suggesting that a Tank survives being surrounded better than a Pajam/Light build does... To which I say:

[oradafu]

If you feel strongly that, despite this discussion showing that the devs do adjust what they had in mind based on communication with the players, they don't, and everything was preplanned as a short of show then I am not sure what purpose commenting here has (afterall if it doesn't change anything ...). Then again, I guess it helps people to express such feelings.

Let's see what changed with all the player input.

* Spinning Staff Wall was added because players pointed out that the previous ability was unuseful on a low HP, low PRR/light Armor, and low BAB toon. Players must wait for Lammania to provide good input to this ability.

* The universally hated and hard to land Staff Lunge was adjusted a bit. Players have to wait until Lamannia goes online before real feedback on these changes, since its a bit vague on the AoE (which wasn't explained and not included in the OP).

* Sneak Faster was placed into Assassin, but a Fast Movement was added.

* Apparently Shadow Dodge will only grant +3 Dex instead of the current +6 Dex which the player base wants to keep.

So Acrobats (and other Rogues) share with Druid and Artificer as the lowest BAB for melees in the game. Yes, even Sorcs, Wizards, can gain full BAB with an ability.

To sneak attack Undead, Constructs, Plants and other non-sneakable mobs, Acrobats need to invest enough AP in the Assassin tree to gain their level 6 Core Ability. The only Sneak Attack damage in the Acrobat tree is the Core, since everything else is in the Assassin tree. I'd like to point out that Assassins no longer need to invest any AP in the Acrobat tree anymore because they got their Faster Sneak.

Acrobats have various ways to trip mobs, which don't cause a helpless state, but they have no way to cause helplessness, even though they have a Tier 4 ability that boosts damage from helpless mobs.

And Acrobats have been waiting for the formula for Sweeping Strike because it has only been reliable when there was the tactical bug. Additionally, nothing was provided to help STR builds with this ability and nothing was added to help Dex builds with DCs.

So as usual, a small tweek from player input and fullstream ahead for what they already had planned.

[BigErkyKid]

Oh boy it's BigErky's "what might happen if you get surrounded by mobs that only do physical damage, then don't kill any of them and just stand there and heal a set amount" "simulation"...

Look I honestly tried to give your "model" a second chance and understand what you compared in those graphs but I can't get past the moving goal posts and constantly changing inputs you insist on (I am referring to the inputs he used in the linked threads).

7% dodge on a Heavy armored character? Why? That's no longer a DPS character in my book. So you're comparing a tank to a pajam/light armored build now? And those results clearly... aren't very clear... Without a legend for the graphs it's hard to say. Not putting any stock in your "model" I've not troubled to decipher that from the code you guys were posting.

Why post a graph with cherry picked numbers like 7% dodge on a heavy and then not tell people how to read the graph? While posting your interpretation, and mentioning evasion as though your graphs take evasion into account (last I saw his graphs completely ignore elemental damage which skews the results towards heavy armor. It looks like you are suggesting that a Tank survives being surrounded better than a Pajam/Light build does... To which I say:

The model was tuned with data provided by Blackheartox. But anyone can easily input ANY values they would want ton see. And then roll the dices 100K times to observe the resulting distributions. You don't understand it, I got that, but you didn't even try. The description of the graph is in the text. But don't bother to read it, too much effort. Instead let's talk about evasion, shall we?

Because all the FOTM builds that power gamers are sporting right now are evasion toons using layered defenses. Oh wait, they aren't...

[sifubob]

Sigh... i am really bad at this timing thing. I did my Paladin life just before Armor Up hit, Barbarian life just before the update to them, and i am on my rogue life now...

So, whaddya reckon the next class to be updated is? so i can get a start on it before they update that one?

[brzytki]

I'd like to point out that Assassins no longer need to invest any AP in the Acrobat tree anymore because they got their Faster Sneaking.

While it's true that assassins don't need to invest in acrobat tree they most definitely will, if only for movement speed enhancement which stacks with Faster Sneaking and works when out of stealth (and which btw benefits assassins more than acrobats because still no one in their right mind is gonna run a pure rogue acrobat) and don't forget about Haste Boost.

[draven1]

I'd like to point out that Assassins no longer need to invest any AP in the Acrobat tree anymore because they got their Faster Sneak.

Why do you think so?

I think assassins will invest their AP on acrobat for movement speed, subtle backstabbing, mostly haste boost
Like acrobats will invest their AP on assassin for sneak attack dmg, damage boost, assassin's trick.

Both trees have some good low hanging fruits

[oradafu]

While it's true that assassins don't need to invest in acrobat tree they most definitely will, if only for movement speed enhancement which stacks with Faster Sneaking and works when out of stealth (and which btw benefits assassins more than acrobats because still no one in their right mind is gonna run a pure rogue acrobat) and don't forget about Haste Boost.

Why do you think so?

I think assassins will invest their AP on acrobat for movement speed, subtle backstabbing, mostly haste boost
Like acrobats will invest their AP on assassin for sneak attack dmg, damage boost, assassin's trick.

Both trees have some good low hanging fruits

A level 6 Core ability to do damage to sneak attack immune mobs isn't low-hanging fruit. It's 10 AP and 6 Rogue levels, compared everything you listed under Acrobat is Tier 2 and 5 AP.

Assassins were able to cry that the Tier 1 ability was too much of an AP burden, but I see nothing shifting out of the Assassin tree to Acrobats to help their AP Burden.

And I've heard butkis about the drop in Acrobat attack speed while moving, when everything in the source material states that there is little to no penalty when moving. Especially when the abilities added to this tree push Acrobats even more into the attacking large mobs while moving category than it had previously.

[draven1]

A level 6 Core ability to do damage to sneak attack immune mobs isn't low-hanging fruit. It's 10 AP and 6 Rogue levels, compared everything you listed under Acrobat is Tier 2 and 5 AP.

Assassins were able to cry that the Tier 1 ability was too much of an AP burden, but I see nothing shifting out of the Assassin tree to Acrobats to help their AP Burden.

And I've heard butkis about the drop in Acrobat attack speed while moving, when everything in the source material states that there is little to no penalty when moving. Especially when the abilities added to this tree push Acrobats even more into the attacking large mobs while moving category than it had previously.

Sneak movement speed moved to assassin, because acrobats don't sneak much, but assassins do much, it's not AP related thing.

Did you take sneak movement speed on acrobat? As I know, many acrobats didn't. But, almost every assassins did.

That related with play style, not AP. Why such enhancement should be placed in wrong tree?
Most acrobats play like evasion barbs(cleaving rush AOEs), but, assassins don't(sneaky focusing 1 target).

And many acrobats took 6+ lvls of rogue, & 10 AP is still low when you have 80 AP, because many acrobats will take some sneak attack dmg enhancements to maximize their DPS. It's always a trade-off.

I think more sneak attack damage & fort-bypass are quite worthy to have

[oradafu]

Why such enhancement should be placed in wrong tree?

Sneak faster wasn't an enhancement in the wrong tree. Sneak Faster from the source material is an Acrobat ability, not an Assassin's.

And sneak damage is a class feature, so it shouldn't be hogged in a single tree. Talking about an enhancement in the wrong tree, it should have been spread out among all three trees, just like Rage was done for Barbarians.

[draven1]

Sneak faster wasn't an enhancement in the wrong tree. Sneak Faster from the source material is an Acrobat ability, not an Assassin's.

And sneak damage is a class feature, so it shouldn't be hogged in a single tree. Talking about an enhancement in the wrong tree, it should have been spread out among all three trees, just like Rage was done for Barbarians.

Yup, defensive roll is a class feature, too.
But there is only enhancement for it for only acrobats.

Enhancements are for specializing some class feature.
Acrobats are specialized in defense & AOE attacks. Assassins are specialized in maximizing SA in a single target & hiding.

All barbs have rages. But only some of them can have more rage, more use of it(Visage of terror).

In the same manner, all rogues have SA. But only some of them can specialized in single target SA.
The others can specialized in AOE SA, or ranged SA.

Sneak faster was in wrong tree, because acrobats aren't in sneak most of their times.
But, assassins are.

Source material? What's that?

I think most acrobats will be far more happy with general movement speed rather than sneak movement speed.
BECAUSE THEY DON'T SNEAK AT ALL. At least on my observation for 7+ years.

If you REALLY want sneak movement speed on acrobat,
you can still take it on assassin tree as like old assassins took it on acrobat tree.
I think most acrobats won't take sneak movement speed as they didn't on old acrobat tree.
It's up to your choice.

[oradafu]

Yup, defensive roll is a class feature, too.
But there is only enhancement for it for only acrobats.

Enhancements are for specializing some class feature.
Acrobats are specialized in defense & AOE attacks. Assassins are specialized in maximizing SA in a single target.

All barbs have rages. But only some of them can have more rage, more use of it(Visage of terror).

In the same manner, All rogues have SA. But only some of them can specialized in single target SA.
The others can have AOE SA, or ranged SA.

Defensive Roll is actually pointed out as an Acrobat's ability in the source material, so of course it's going to show up in the Acrobat tree.

As for sneak attack, show me in the trees beside Assassin where the increased Sneak Attack for Mechanic and Acrobat are besides cap. Besides the level 1 Core in Mechanic, show me the increased range for Sneak attack. Show me anywhere in the Acrobat tree that contains a AoE sneak attack.

Where is this specialized sneak attack via AoE in the tree? An assassin can cleave just like an acrobat and do more sneak attack damage against the same amount of mobs. So where is this special ability that you speak?

Source material? What's that?

I think most acrobats will be happy with general movement speed rather than sneak movement speed.

Source material would be the rulebooks that the game is based on. The Complete Adventurer D&D 3.5 to be exact.

Acrobats are happy to have their fast movement returned, since the Devs removed it for no reason during their last tinkering with prestige class.

[draven1]

Defensive Roll is actually pointed out as an Acrobat's ability in the source material, so of course it's going to show up in the Acrobat tree.

As for sneak attack, show me in the trees beside Assassin where the increased Sneak Attack for Mechanic and Acrobat are besides cap. Besides the level 1 Core in Mechanic, show me the increased range for Sneak attack. Show me anywhere in the Acrobat tree that contains a AoE sneak attack.

Where is this specialized sneak attack via AoE in the tree? An assassin can cleave just like an acrobat and do more sneak attack damage against the same amount of mobs. So where is this special ability that you speak?



Source material would be the rulebooks that the game is based on. The Complete Adventurer D&D 3.5 to be exact.

Acrobats are happy to have their fast movement returned, since the Devs removed it for no reason during their last tinkering with prestige class.

DDO rules isn't based pnp D&D rules anymore at certain point.
Because it fits well for pnp, but doesn't fit well on MMORPG.

We are on the ship that is far from its origin.

Where's PRR/MRR section in the source material?

If you feel lack of specialty of certain prestige class, request it on this thread.
THIS THREAD EXISTS FOR THAT REASON!

[brzytki]

A level 6 Core ability to do damage to sneak attack immune mobs isn't low-hanging fruit. It's 10 AP and 6 Rogue levels, compared everything you listed under Acrobat is Tier 2 and 5 AP.

Assassins were able to cry that the Tier 1 ability was too much of an AP burden, but I see nothing shifting out of the Assassin tree to Acrobats to help their AP Burden.

And I've heard butkis about the drop in Acrobat attack speed while moving, when everything in the source material states that there is little to no penalty when moving. Especially when the abilities added to this tree push Acrobats even more into the attacking large mobs while moving category than it had previously.

I've never said it was a low-hanging fruit. I merely pointed out that assassins wil still put 3-8 APs in acrobat tree. Faster Sneaking was moved to assassin tree but you still have to put APs in it. Right now i spend 11 APs in acrobat tree on my assassin and i consider it a bare minimum if you want to be both good at assassinating mobs and have competitive DPS in EE content. After the pass i'll still spend 8 APs in acrobat tree to get Haste Boost and 3 APs for Faster Sneaking in assassin tree. If you think moving FS to assassin tree made them spend less APs you are wrong. It only made a bit easier for them to hit the next "APs spent in tree" threshold.

You are still talking about multiclassing. 10 APs in assassin tree hurts you so much BECAUSE your acrobat will be a multiclass and will want to spend those APs in monk or pally trees. It called a trade-off. If you consider a pure class or up to 2 lvl splashes (which i guess was the intention for this revamp - to make pure rogue acrobats at least appealing, though it still fails) there is no point in arguing about the need for acrobats to dip some APs in assassin tree because you'll be hard pressed to find something better in your acrobat tree to put 60+ APs there. That's the whole point.

Edit: And about the drop in attack speed while moving, it's rather a game mechanic/animation problem than tree problem because the game gives you other attack animation while moving then the one while standing still. Haven't you ever tried twitching on TWF? That's the same problem.

[brzytki]

Where is this specialized sneak attack via AoE in the tree? An assassin can cleave just like an acrobat and do more sneak attack damage against the same amount of mobs. So where is this special ability that you speak?

T3 acrobat tree: Sweeping Strikes: Melee Quarterstaff Trip Attack: Deals +1/+2/+3[W] damage to all nearby enemies and trips them. (Balance DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Dexterity Modifier Negates trip). Cooldown: 30/25/20 seconds.

AoE cleave resulting in SA if you don't have agro. And before you say "but what if you have agro?", point me to the attack in assassin tree that counts as SA even if you have agro. Don't know yet if new Shiv bluffs on-hit or after but that is a low-hanging fruit your acrobat can take while assassin has to spend considerably more APs to get acrobat customized cleave. And if you are talking about Cleave as a feat, well acrobats most definitely will take it anyway while vast majority of assassins not so much.

[Rhysem]

Where's PRR/MRR section in the source material?

Unearthed Arcana. I'm too lazy to go dig up our copy and find the page, but there is "armor as dr" rather than "armor as dodge" rules. The dr isn't anything impressive, so it'd never work at higher levels in d&d itself, much less ddo.

Doesn't cover mrr, but it is there as prr.

[Blackheartox]

The model was tuned with data provided by Blackheartox. But anyone can easily input ANY values they would want ton see. And then roll the dices 100K times to observe the resulting distributions. You don't understand it, I got that, but you didn't even try. The description of the graph is in the text. But don't bother to read it, too much effort. Instead let's talk about evasion, shall we?

Because all the FOTM builds that power gamers are sporting right now are evasion toons using layered defenses. Oh wait, they aren't...

As i did 3 models, i put most effort into 2 playstyles comparing a 12 fighter 6 monk 2 palie for pyama builds vs a pure 20 palie.
I even gave the palie defense buffs and i could add more if needed but i picked the setups everyone runs with to purely compare those 2 from a dps perspective.
Basically its 2 handed pure palie vs 2anded centerd falchion user.

7% dodge bdw /directed to some is easily achived on a build with harmor.
3 base 3 from tree and 1 from saphire, that is what min maxers would prolly take bdw.
I also gave a moderately geared center s hamor user and put least ammount to non geared first lifers /since i really ant estimate what is easy to get gear wise for new players as i consider for example 24 prr ring easy to get for new players but that might be untrue

[maddong]

In regards to the staff durability problem:

You could Add Item Defense into the acrobat tree somewhere. That would fix that.

[Myrddinman]

In regards to the staff durability problem:

You could Add Item Defense into the acrobat tree somewhere. That would fix that.

I'm for it!

The only issue would be where to put it in the tree. Outside of adding it as a passive in the cores, I can see it being added to Staff Specialization.

[Ayseifn]

T3 acrobat tree: Sweeping Strikes: Melee Quarterstaff Trip Attack: Deals +1/+2/+3[W] damage to all nearby enemies and trips them. (Balance DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Dexterity Modifier Negates trip). Cooldown: 30/25/20 seconds.

AoE cleave resulting in SA if you don't have agro. And before you say "but what if you have agro?", point me to the attack in assassin tree that counts as SA even if you have agro. Don't know yet if new Shiv bluffs on-hit or after but that is a low-hanging fruit your acrobat can take while assassin has to spend considerably more APs to get acrobat customized cleave. And if you are talking about Cleave as a feat, well acrobats most definitely will take it anyway while vast majority of assassins not so much.

Are you sure cleaves have AoE SA? What about glances, do they yield SAs?