Rogue - Thief-Acrobat Changes

[brzytki]

I play rogues too, so I'm allowed to disagree... So far, most of the suggestions have been.. "Make Rogues just like barbs and fighters and paladins"... and those are terrible suggestions.

I have a quest for you then. Take your best-equipped character, use +20 heart to LR into pure rogue acrobat and go do some high lvl EE content. Then get back to us with your "advice" of playing smarter.

There is a reason why there are so few, if any, pure acrobats. That's the same reason why people splash monk or pally on their acrobats.

[BigErkyKid]

I don't know about brzytki, but I consider myself one of the better Rogue-users in the game. I get annoyed when people rebut "Rogues are squishy" with "just play better lel" or anything like "if you think [class] has [flaw] then you're just using it wrong". You're just hand-waving away suggestions/criticisms, by very experienced Rogue-users in some cases, to improve Rogues (to a point where they're not overpowered but also not so far behind the curve), and it's frankly disrespectful.

I've seen some familiar power gaming faces come to the thread, laugh and leave. Same feeling talking in game.

If the people who are building the "signature" rogue builds say that rogues are too squishy and behind the current power curve, I think Sev should pay a bit more attention to them.

I think the problem is that the dev s are working with models that are somehow outdated. For instance, earlier in this conversation, you (Sev) mentioned that a paladin does not have significant advantage in self healing in EE once LoH runs out.

However, while this might be the original result of the design of the class, you failed to account for the current min max set ups. Using them, the paladin multipliers enormously the capacity to heal. The rogue cannot do that.

Clicky abilities aside, I see the rogue not giving a lot more DPS with this enhancement (they were behind since the staff is generally speaking a WORSE weapon) and just a bit more defense. But this does not sort the main issue of the TA tree, which is that since you give tasty crits to far more powerful classes, then they lose that one edge they had.

I think that moving to Lama so early is a mistake, what is there to test really that is not mostly on live nowadays? A bit more dodge and two clickes with long cool downs?

[Qhualor]

Now you've lost me here. And it's only a beginning lol. Blur is in my previous post, displacement won't be always on, unless you've crafted 5-6 gs clickies or scrolling one every 30 sec. Nightsield? What does it have to do with melee?

I do not. I've been playing rogues for 6 years and i know for example that even if you run into the room as a 2nd or 3rd person, some of the mobs might be agro'd on you.

Of course i'm not looking at the ideal image you want to say is reality. I'm looking at situations when the s**t hits the fan. I've said it already, when the dodge+concealment+incorporeal work it's all good. But when you get hit, you might lose half of your HP bar. And i'm looking at the future updates, it's called not being shortsighted. Tell me what will your rogue do when the cap is increased to 30 and the new mobs will hit harder to be a threat to high PRR classes? Will you still tell us "No, it doesn't matter that mob hits your 1k hp rogue for 700dmg after your measly PRR because 2 out of 3 times it misses you."


I'm sorry but you don't understand the concept of acrobat then. Read again what attacks acrobats have and get back to us.


See my comments above above about acrobat concept and me not being shortsighted.

TS+fort bypass, TS+double damage, double damage+fort bypass. Actually i read on wiki that all champions have double damage so maybe true. But it's certainly not the same problem for everyone. Rogues have lower HP, don't have high PRR. That means they'll get hit for more damage and they'll be closer to death than other classes, so no, definitely not the same problem.



Your "play smarter" doesn't hold against examples given in my last paragraph.

I thought we were discussing rogue damage mitigation options and playing more like a rogue and less like a fighter. If not, than I'm lost too.

Mob agro is borked. I see mobs running by me as first in the room to get to the player around the corner out of sight. I've watched mobs literally run across a dungeon paying no attention to me. I've beaten mobs to death that didn't turn once to fight me because they really wanted the guy in the back. Mob skill checks are also not working properly when in sneak mode. These are problems with the game itself. In the meantime, you can use your invisibility, bluff, deception to dump agro.

My rogue will most likely continue taking advantage of its strength by doing everything possible to not have agro. Its good there isn't 100% avoidance as it shouldn't be. Maybe there is something you could have done differently. Take it as a learning experience. I'm seeing decently geared out rogues with ~800 HP. That's perfectly fine. I used to run around with 700 and didn't have survivability issues, but doesn't mean I never died.

Ah, so we are done talking about rogues in general and moving on to specific rogues. OK, but are you still saying the same things?

If all you are going to be focused on is HP and PRR for rogues as major sources of damage mitigation than no matter what changes are made you will still continue having problems. Some of us will not though.

If you refuse to play smarter, not harder as a rogue than yet again, more problems.

[brzytki]

snip

You just don't want to read. It's the same thing with you like it was in the barb changes thread. Ok, i get it. Moving on.

[Qezuzu]

I play rogues too, so I'm allowed to disagree... So far, most of the suggestions have been.. "Make Rogues just like barbs and fighters and paladins"... and those are terrible suggestions.

Barbs and Fighters and Paladins are able to play the way they do because they have one or more of the following:
-Cure Wounds as an innate spell
-automatic healing upon hitting/killing an enemy, or just every 4 seconds, or the weapon-bond-heal thing
-Free heavy armor proficiency
-upwards of 2,000 HP
-large amounts of healing amp
-base damage as their primary source of damage
-cheap Cleave attacks
-shield-centric trees
-etc.

Until you see any suggestions along the lines of "let us get over 200 PRR, give tons of CON and HP bonuses, let us sneak attack even when having aggro, improve our AoE damage" then don't say people just want Rogues to play like the tanky thug classes; it's much more likely that they just want to partially fix/dampen the flaws/shortcomings of the class, which is the entire purpose of these passes.

[Qhualor]

You just don't want to read. It's the same thing with you like it was in the barb changes thread. Ok, i get it. Moving on.

you just don't want to try to improve. just like in the barb threads im not the one complaining, but im sure you will continue to do just that.

[Qhualor]

I play rogues too, so I'm allowed to disagree... So far, most of the suggestions have been.. "Make Rogues just like barbs and fighters and paladins"... and those are terrible suggestions.

this is exactly the kind of suggestions im seeing. they want their rogues to have the dps and PRR just like a fighter. when devs listen to these suggestions that's just one more nail in the coffin for uniqueness.

[Spoonwelder]

Qhualor you may being purposefully obtuse but the FACTS are that at best you can have about 75% damage avoidance (Displace50%, Ghostly10%, Dodge30%, AC15%). So 25% of attacks are going to hit you. Even if are are bluffing, diploing and deceiving fiend you are going to get hit some number of times sometimes very few but sometimes it will be one too many. In epic elite with lower PRR and lower HP than almost any other melee build means you can be a burden not a help.

I ran EE DDTW a few days ago, on my admittedly not fully geared assassin. I didn' t even think about meleeing the dragon. AOE attacks, high damage, high fort by pass means dead rogue no matter how well I play that character. So I sat back and scroll healed the others. There was no point at all in me stepping close. Now I have solo'd that exact same fight on a barb, pally and a bard and survived each time a rogue doesn't have that option.

Yes rogues have to be played differently WE ALL GET THAT. But no matter how well/properly they are played they are at a distinct disadvantage versus almost any other build. The key strength of a rogue is SA damage - that means we have to get close enough to mobs to hit them - there is a chance they will hit back. Due to the disadvantage in both PRR and HP of a rogue you have a much higher chance of dying than an equally well played and geared melee type character of a different class. On top of that the SA focused DPS is not actually competitive with what is available from other classes. Nor is the utility value of traps or evasion strong enough to offset this inherent weakness.

So the solutions are to get a bump in damage mitigation or ramp up the DPS some to compensate for being a glass cannon OR a combination of the two.

[Silverleafeon]

Mechanic time?

The PC must be still hacking at it, if we don't see it yet.
That is a good thing.
Hopefully...

[Qhualor]

Qhualor you may being purposefully obtuse but the FACTS are that at best you can have about 75% damage avoidance (Displace50%, Ghostly10%, Dodge30%, AC15%). So 25% of attacks are going to hit you. Even if are are bluffing, diploing and deceiving fiend you are going to get hit some number of times sometimes very few but sometimes it will be one too many. In epic elite with lower PRR and lower HP than almost any other melee build means you can be a burden not a help.

I ran EE DDTW a few days ago, on my admittedly not fully geared assassin. I didn' t even think about meleeing the dragon. AOE attacks, high damage, high fort by pass means dead rogue no matter how well I play that character. So I sat back and scroll healed the others. There was no point at all in me stepping close. Now I have solo'd that exact same fight on a barb, pally and a bard and survived each time a rogue doesn't have that option.

Yes rogues have to be played differently WE ALL GET THAT. But no matter how well/properly they are played they are at a distinct disadvantage versus almost any other build. The key strength of a rogue is SA damage - that means we have to get close enough to mobs to hit them - there is a chance they will hit back. Due to the disadvantage in both PRR and HP of a rogue you have a much higher chance of dying than an equally well played and geared melee type character of a different class. On top of that the SA focused DPS is not actually competitive with what is available from other classes. Nor is the utility value of traps or evasion strong enough to offset this inherent weakness.

So the solutions are to get a bump in damage mitigation or ramp up the DPS some to compensate for being a glass cannon OR a combination of the two.

/sigh im not being purposefully obtuse. yes, you will get hit sometimes. i have not once claimed its possible to not get hit. i have claimed that you can avoid a lot of incoming damage by putting to good use your UMD for blur, displace, nightshield and anything else that will help as well as investing in Dodge, deception, bluff to dump agro. im not claiming an extreme and not understanding why people are focused on that. so you get hit and get hit hard sometimes. it happens to us all no matter what class you play. trying to beef up rogue defense via PRR to be on par with high PRR toons like fighters is thematically wrong and a lazy way to increase rogue survivability. rogues are meant to be athletic dodging enemy swings.

what is happening is that some people here are dismissing very easy ways to mitigate and avoid damage because they want to play like a fighter. play a fighter than.

there are tells with the dragon. when she looks at you, move out of the way. when you see the tail getting ready to swing, move out of the way. will it work 100% of the time? doubtful but ive taken a lot of damage from her too as a barb with 1200+ hp, displace, blur, ~120 PRR wearing medium armor. it is inevitable that no matter what, you will get hit in combat and you will get hit hard at times. you could take it as a learning experience and try to position yourself better next time, learn to move around, invest in better dodge, use blur/displace items/scrolls or just complain because you got hit between deception procs.

i see a lot more rogues dying because they don't know what to do with agro and sometimes they don't even have decent mitigation/avoidance. the good rogue players i see that don't have issues with survivability use things like deception, timed and well placed attacks, movement, invisibility and have perma blur and other sources of damage mitigation/avoidance.

i don't know about you, but i can kill mobs pretty fast without agro. its with agro that the fight ends up longer than it should and than its about trying to stay alive long enough to kill the mob.

Acrobat is getting a huge boost with Uncanny Dodge and Spinning Staff Wall. you would have 50 seconds of relying on tactical fighting, whatever dodge investment you have, blur and any other source of damage mitigation/avoidance you have. on paper, it looks to be a top tier defense making them at least practically untouchable for 40 seconds.

[Qezuzu]

what is happening is that some people here are dismissing very easy ways to mitigate and avoid damage because they want to play like a fighter. play a fighter than.

Fighters also use Displacement

there are tells with the dragon. when she looks at you, move out of the way. when you see the tail getting ready to swing, move out of the way. will it work 100% of the time? doubtful but ive taken a lot of damage from her too as a barb with 1200+ hp, displace, blur, ~120 PRR wearing medium armor. it is inevitable that no matter what, you will get hit in combat and you will get hit hard at times. you could take it as a learning experience and try to position yourself better next time, learn to move around, invest in better dodge, use blur/displace items/scrolls or just complain because you got hit between deception procs.

If the animations/hitboxes in DDO were accurate enough for "just manually avoid the damage" to be an actual solution I wouldn't have an issue with someone saying "just manually avoid the damage". But they are not, and there's also lag.

Acrobat is getting a huge boost with Uncanny Dodge and Spinning Staff Wall. you would have 50 seconds of relying on tactical fighting, whatever dodge investment you have, blur and any other source of damage mitigation/avoidance you have. on paper, it looks to be a top tier defense making them at least practically untouchable for 40 seconds.

120 PRR is not untouchable.

[G_Lich]

and yet its worked that way for Mobs for years.....

Seriously though... I can see why auto trip would be bad.. but how about a way to use an alternative Ability for Trip, Sap, and Sunder? Most rogues dont go STR based anymore, so these abilities become useless when your using Dex or Int to hit.

Sap is indeed useless as is sleep... Super useful in P&P it would be nice to see Sap aggro proof from sneak as a set up for a double assassinate. Sap first target Assassinate second, turn to first for the double like it used to work. Sap should be on-sale since it isn't a stun like swash has and takes a feat instead of AP

[hit_fido]

We are still working on what we will do with the DCs to Trip, Improved Trip, and Sweeping Strikes. The time sink is doing our due diligence on monster stats. We need to get the value ranges for both Balance skills and straight Strength bonuses for all the creatures in the game before we finish our work.

Sev~

How about Combat Expertise gets updated and becomes (or adds): "Tactical attacks now use the highest of the character's Strength, Dexterity, or Intelligence score."

Costs a feat but lets many more classes have a viable trip option if they make that investment. An 'expert' ought to be able to make the best use of their primary ability (strong kicks a leg out with great force, smart anticipates the foe's movement and strikes at the perfect time, agile moves quickly enough to catch the foe off guard...)

[Qhualor]

Fighters also use Displacement



If the animations/hitboxes in DDO were accurate enough for "just manually avoid the damage" to be an actual solution I wouldn't have an issue with someone saying "just manually avoid the damage". But they are not, and there's also lag.



120 PRR is not untouchable.

yes they do as well as my barb.

i side step when i see incoming attacks. i move around the back of a mob after initial agro is placed on another player. i make a mob dizzy if i have trouble shedding agro. does it work 100% of the time? no. do i still get hit? yes. its a lot less by doing that than just standing there taking it.

don't look at it singularly. look at it including 5% Dodge, 5% Maximum Dodge, and 5 Maximum Dexterity Bonus for Light Armor, 1% passive bonus to Dodge at levels 4, 6, 8, 12, 16, and 20.

Also, you can activate this ability to gain a temporary 50% dodge bonus and a +6 reflex save bonus, plus evasion/improved, blur, etc.

[nibel]

This is insane...

Can we make UMD always work too?

And hold spells?

Come on guys... Are we seriously at that point? Where we're asking for abilities to always work, with no investment?

I am not saying for it to "work" with no investments. I don't consider a 1 second trip to be a true CC ability. It is very, very, VERY situational, at best. And that would be what a no-DC trip would feel like.

So, if you invest on trip DC, you could actually use it as CC. You hit improved trip, the mob lands on its soft rear, and stay sit for a long time until it makes the save. During this time, it can't attack.

If you DO NOT invest on trip DC, you only have the basic trip action, that will have a longer cooldown (also noted on my proposition), and will make the mob "slip" for a brief second (the time it takes to make the "fall" and "rise" animation). At the very best, this can be used to interrupt an called attack, like an wight leap, or an ogre 3-hit combo, and it would still requires good timing to do so.

I was not asking for anyone to hit trip and keep the mob a full minute prone without investing in vertigo and tactics.

(Sunder is another beast, since it is a debuff, not a CC, and I think it having a save is silly)

[WanderingGrump]

We are still working on what we will do with the DCs to Trip, Improved Trip, and Sweeping Strikes. The time sink is doing our due diligence on monster stats. We need to get the value ranges for both Balance skills and straight Strength bonuses for all the creatures in the game before we finish our work.

Sev~

I wondered if you folks have considered using a multi-selector that would be say tier 2 or 3 on the Acrobat tree that would let you select Strength, Dex or Int for the DC modifier for Tactics feats like Trip, Sunder, Sap etc and give it say a bonus of +1/2/3 to tactics. This would allow those running Dex or Int based stick builds to effectively add at least Trip or Sunder to their builds. I can understand if you want to force either Stunning or Stunning Blow to only use Strength, however there should be a fair case for Dex or Int for Trip and Sunder given what they do. As it stands on many of the current stick builds we skip these feats as they tend to be worthless unless you are Strength based. In fact I don't know anyone who keeps Sap or Hamstring either so if you are working on the Tactics stuff please make those two feats worth taking.

Also are you familiar with the Big F'ing Stick Thread here on the forum? Its at last check something over 120 pages covering stick builds specifically along with testing for things like Bluff, Feint, various bugs that have related to stick builds etc. You probably are but there are some real gems in there particularly the pure 20 builds and the 13/6/1 or 12/6/2 splits that seem quite common for the breed.

There are a few people I am aware of whom have finished Completionists on the power of being a stick build so it's one that while a niche to be sure has some popularity behind it.

[Failedlegend]

To be fair Qualor is correct about one thing, Mob aggro is borked somehow...I consistently duo with one friend and we've done several tests at several levels/quests and it seems random/glitchy at times.

Example: Rushing in with my friend in the previous empty room, Intimidate and a bunch of both Magic and Melee DPS (using a Wizard/Fighter as an example) all mobs attacking me...my friend walks in...no attacks, just walking and suddenly several mobs rush her.

I wondered if you folks have considered using a multi-selector that would be say tier 2 or 3 on the Acrobat tree that would let you select Strength, Dex or Int for the DC modifier for Tactics feats like Trip, Sunder, Sap etc and give it say a bonus of +1/2/3 to tactics. This would allow those running Dex or Int based stick builds to effectively add at least Trip or Sunder to their builds. I can understand if you want to force either Stunning or Stunning Blow to only use Strength, however there should be a fair case for Dex or Int for Trip and Sunder given what they do. As it stands on many of the current stick builds we skip these feats as they tend to be worthless unless you are Strength based. In fact I don't know anyone who keeps Sap or Hamstring either so if you are working on the Tactics stuff please make those two feats worth taking.

My Int-Based "Skullcracker" a Q-staff wielding Assassin would very much appreciate this

I'd be more in favor of it being part of the Combat Expertise feat though. (The being able to use Dex, int or Str bit)

[Myrddinman]

I appreciate you positions guys, from where I stand there has been a lot of back and forth during the last six days, but six days was nowhere near enough. Because as evidence by the last passes what goes live on lammannia gets changed very little except for the power scale of individual abilities, not the abilities themselves or overall direction of the class.

For me rereading everything that has gone back and forth in the last 6 days showed folks getting excited (good), and Sev responding (good), but in the end little to nothing being changed in what Sev had originally envisioned (bad).

Too many times in this thread and the assassin thread when people have disagreed with Sev he has fallen back on "his data" this is showing up in a lot of places where Sev has interaction with the community, it's almost a "too hard" code. When multiple posters disagree with Sev on a topic he will invariably say something like: "our data shows that.....".

All that combined with the time scale, well they make me rather dubious.

And I appreciate the reasonable response.

I am not oblivious to the broken promises and vast/mysterious dearths of communication that plague Turbine as it relates to DDO. I have been greatly disappointed on more than one occasion in this respect. The Mimic Hunt preview on Lamannia is the most recent.

This being said, I really do appreciate and dig the upwards tick in communication since Sev took the reigns; I think most of us would concede this point. As far as stock responses like, "Our data shows...", alludes to the fact that the Devs do indeed know way more about their game and how a great percentage of the population plays it. Of course this may not be how you or I play, or even most forumites; but, decisions need to be made that affect most, not just the top echelons of players.

I do disagree on what has been changed versus proposed. I feel it has been reasonable, and I'll wait until it gets uploaded on Lamannia before passing further judgement...either way.

[Robai]

Any chances to make Trip and Sunder* always work, without a DC? The DC is there for recovery time (for trip) or secondary effects (for Sunder), but not for the actual effect. Sure, the cooldown on those abilities might be tweaked for that, with the Improved feats reducing the cooldown.

Sure, this would make a 6-str wizard able to trip a giant, but he would get up after a single second. Raising trip DC would make the ability amazing for CC, and no-save trips turns them in a situational tactical option for all melee characters. .

*Change Sunder to be always -3 Fortitude on hit, and -4 AC/-5% fortification on failed save (all three stacks 5 times); while Improved Sunder gives a cooldown low enough to allow you to add stacks on your own, and +4 DC, like Improved Trip.

^This^

I really like this idea. While I think that Rogues shouldn't be top DPS this CC part should be reliable (especially it's needed in EEs).
Keep in mind that many mobs are immune to trip.

[oradafu]

Any chances to make Trip and Sunder* always work, without a DC? The DC is there for recovery time (for trip) or secondary effects (for Sunder), but not for the actual effect. Sure, the cooldown on those abilities might be tweaked for that, with the Improved feats reducing the cooldown.

Sure, this would make a 6-str wizard able to trip a giant, but he would get up after a single second. Raising trip DC would make the ability amazing for CC, and no-save trips turns them in a situational tactical option for all melee characters. .

*Change Sunder to be always -3 Fortitude on hit, and -4 AC/-5% fortification on failed save (all three stacks 5 times); while Improved Sunder gives a cooldown low enough to allow you to add stacks on your own, and +4 DC, like Improved Trip.

^This^

I really like this idea. While I think that Rogues shouldn't be top DPS this CC part should be reliable (especially it's needed in EEs).
Keep in mind that many mobs are immune to trip.

And it's not like regular Trip is spammable by players since its got a 10 second cooldown, unlike NPC dogs and wolves in the game. Even Improved Trip's 10 second cooldown is short enough to be spammable.