Rogue - Thief-Acrobat Changes

[Xionanx]

Our thought is epic scaling for the Trip DC should be done with gear bonuses to Trip and extra Dexterity. If we decide on comparing the DC to a straight Strength roll like PnP the formula would have to be totally redesigned anyway.

Sev~

You know.. I keep seeing you say Your thoughts are for scaling to come from gear.. but then I look at out gear.

Unless you not only intend to do a rogue revamp, but ALSO a complete gear itemization revamp, along with revisting existing epic items to add needed stats.. and then to keep those changes in mind for all future added gear. Then you better hope that the players "like" what you guys consider "good itemization".

I dont know.. IMO it would easier to balance the class based on the CLASS. "Gear" should just be a bonus to make already good things better, I should *not* "HAVE TO HAVE" X piece of gear for a class to be viable.

[Thrudh]

Either way, the cooldown is too long. Reduce that to 60 seconds at most.

It's very powerful... cooldown is fine as is...

[Thrudh]

I shouldn't "HAVE TO HAVE" X piece of gear for a class to be viable.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with "having to having" x piece of gear for a class to be viable in end-game EPIC ELITE...

In the lower-level epic elites, and the epic hards, you have your wish, and the class is viable without best of the best gear.

[slarden]

~ Yes, spike damage is a weakness of Rogues and other dodge based builds. This is by design.

Unfortunately the paladin in my PUG group with the easy-button high-PRR build that can't die will not agree. He will complain about losing 10% xp because I got one-hit in 1 quest out of 4 even though I got the party a 30% trap bonus in all 4 quests. Oh and I'll probably here him say "You need some more PRR dude".

At the moment Damage Mitigation (PRR/MRR) is far superior to Damage Avoidance (dodge, displacement, etc.) because it completely prevents death and there is no way to bypass it. High Fortification is one of the key protections that damage-avoidance builds rely on to prevent huge amounts of crit damage and there is now a way to completely bypass it. There is no enemy buffs to bypass PRR/MRR.

[dualscissors]

Unfortunately the paladin in my PUG group with the easy-button high-PRR build that can't die will not agree. He will complain about losing 10% xp because I got one-hit in 1 quest out of 4 even though I got the party a 30% trap bonus in all 4 quests. Oh and I'll probably here him say "You need some more PRR dude".

At the moment Damage Mitigation (PRR/MRR) is far superior to Damage Avoidance (dodge, displacement, etc.) because it completely prevents death and there is no way to bypass it. High Fortification is one of the key protections that damage-avoidance builds rely on to prevent huge amounts of crit damage and there is now a way to completely bypass it. There is no enemy buffs to bypass PRR/MRR.

Uncanny Dodge, Wall, some PRR, Blur-Displace, high Dodge are a viable combination for defense. Honestly, the charge that PUG pallies will be mad if you get 1-shotted by a champ or in EE is a bit of hypothetical pessimism. If you manage to run across this person in a PUG, the error in expectation is on that player.

[Qhualor]

Unfortunately the paladin in my PUG group with the easy-button high-PRR build that can't die will not agree. He will complain about losing 10% xp because I got one-hit in 1 quest out of 4 even though I got the party a 30% trap bonus in all 4 quests. Oh and I'll probably here him say "You need some more PRR dude".

At the moment Damage Mitigation (PRR/MRR) is far superior to Damage Avoidance (dodge, displacement, etc.) because it completely prevents death and there is no way to bypass it. High Fortification is one of the key protections that damage-avoidance builds rely on to prevent huge amounts of crit damage and there is now a way to completely bypass it. There is no enemy buffs to bypass PRR/MRR.

hit Uncanny Dodge and cast displacement and blur on yourself than come back and say PRR is far superior. i do this on my barb and you wouldn't believe how many misses i see.

[Ayseifn]

hit Uncanny Dodge and cast displacement and blur on yourself than come back and say PRR is far superior. i do this on my barb and you wouldn't believe how many misses i see.

My paladin does those things too, and still has near 200PRR. People complaining here are talking about rogues with ~50 PRR.

[SealedInSong]

CKT requires a sword so making the T-A one require a staff seems reasonable too, and would avoid power creep on certain other prestiges.

I don't think it's the case: http://ddowiki.com/page/Harper_Agent_enhancements

[SealedInSong]

Ah, other thing… I love Spring attack because is highly thematic that the character suffers no penalty to his attack roll when meleeing and moving. An acrobat should have a high mobility!! But with the recent changes to the THF chain of feats, spring attack is a subpar option and a rogue doesn't have many feats for fit THF (3 feats!), spring attack chain (3 feats!), improved critical, power attack, cleave and great cleave… spring attack (or at least the part of melee and movement) would be a wonderful addition to high level cores, too (Kick up, maybe?)

It doesn't seem like it's good enough to be the only t5 amongst vault (weak) and staff mastery, but it's fun sounding

[SealedInSong]

As a possibility, why not just allow the character a hit against anything it tumbles through (as a T4 or 5 enhancement). I feel bad tumbling because I know I should be attacking things (and tumbling usually doesn't aid in survival that much anyways, even when spec'd for it). Giving damage on pass through has been done before (Draconic Wings) and would be an interesting option. As an alternative, a trip attempt when tumbling through would be more tactically interesting and provide another layer of survival potential on-top of the normal tumble defensive boosts (and not just MORE NUMBERS) and still possibly be attractive to non-tumble builds.

I like the damage on tumble idea.

I proposed the same Flyby Attack code be applied to vault, to make it more of a tier5

[Urjak]

Here is the first draft of potential changes to the Thief-Acrobat tree.[COLOR=#FFFFFF]

*snippedy-snip-snip*

Shadow Dodge: (2/2/2 AP) No longer a toggle. It no longer reduces Fortification. Shadow Dodge now adds 1/2/3 to Dodge, Maximum Dexterity Bonus for light armor, and Dexterity.

Sev~

Just three questions:
Will the Dexterity bonus of Shadow Dodge continue to stack with itself?
(Last time I checked it did for Shadow Dodge I: +1 total Dexterity, Shadow Dodge II: +1 + +2 = +3 total Dexterity and Shadow Dodge III: +1 + +2 + +3 = +6 total Dexterity.)

If so - will the Dodge and Maximum Dexterity Bonus as well? (Last time I checked all other bonuses did not)

Could the description be updated to reflect whether it will stack with itself or not and if, which parts will?

Thank You!

[slarden]

Uncanny Dodge, Wall, some PRR, Blur-Displace, high Dodge are a viable combination for defense. Honestly, the charge that PUG pallies will be mad if you get 1-shotted by a champ or in EE is a bit of hypothetical pessimism. If you manage to run across this person in a PUG, the error in expectation is on that player.

Displacement can be completely bypassed and is only available to a rogue via scroll or clickie. Fortification can be completely bypassed and that used to be the rogue's way to avoid the big hit. Uncanny dodge has a short duration and long cooldown. PRR/MRR is a sure-thing easy-button that works every time and is active 100% of the time. Enemies have no way to bypass PRR/MRR except by bigger damage. As the devs push bigger and bigger damage to compensate for the easy-button they gave high PRR/MRR builds it makes the rogues low PRR a bigger problem. They've already done that with champions and they did that with the CR 80+ death knights in EE MOD. I am not complaining about either, but when the level cap goes up and hp goes those damage spikes will need to be bigger to somewhat challenge a high PRR build. If we gain 100 hp from 28 to 30 through better gear, stats, etc. a rogue with 30% damage reduction from PRR gains 143 effective HP against a big hit (100/.7) while a paladin also gaining 100 hp with 60% damage reduction + strength of vitality + tenacious defense gains an effective 360 hp against the big hit (100/.4*1.2*1.2). In other words the current problem we have with the PRR easy button will get worse. Damage will have to get bigger to challenge the high-PRR paladin.

Hearing people complain about the 10% death penalty is not hypothetical. It's come up many times on the forums from many different people. I will agree once you and/or your guild is known around the server you aren't going to really hear those complaints, but I do see people getting hassled from time to time - esp in heroic content.

My original post was intended to be somewhat light-hearted, but also with truth in it. Being a bit squishy is not going to keep me from playing my assassin. I enjoy that it is a more difficult build to play and to master and I do not want rogue to turn into an easy button - that is more important to me than anything else they do with rogue. I do want my rogue to be useful in raids. I hope the devs consider rogues in their design for future raids so the game doesn't become all about PRR.

[RD2play]

I know you think that as well as a few others but I don't get WHY. I repeat Acrobats should be lithe and agile not the Hulk

Because I am all for options, rather than pigeonholing. So IMO if you want to go dex you should be able to, maybe it should even be the better choice for a pure acrobat, but if I want to make a STR based acrobat or want to use stuff from its tree on a str build WHY should I not be allowed to ? this is DDO with billions of build options and not a "generic mmo" where you get a predetermined skill set and are bound to certain gear. lets keep it that way and build for more options rather.

[Qhualor]

My paladin does those things too, and still has near 200PRR. People complaining here are talking about rogues with ~50 PRR.

if they are a level 1 rogue i can see 50 PRR after the boost. PRR is about reducing incoming damage. Dodge, Blur, evasion, displacement, etc is about total miss. you don't need a high PRR on a rogue if you use deception and dump agro because you shouldn't be getting hit much.

[slarden]

My paladin does those things too, and still has near 200PRR. People complaining here are talking about rogues with ~50 PRR.

And to clarify - I am not complaining, but the PRR divide is a very valid point to raise in my opinion which is why I mentioned it a few times. Rogues are squishy period. They are going to be more squishy at level 30 if the devs increase melee damage output to challenge the high PRR high hp builds.

I don't think it should be addressed by giving rogues an easy button PRR option. It should be addressed through enemy buffs so PRR/MRR doesn't always work and huge damage #s aren't the only option to challenge high PRR builds.

[slarden]

if they are a level 1 rogue i can see 50 PRR after the boost. PRR is about reducing incoming damage. Dodge, Blur, evasion, displacement, etc is about total miss. you don't need a high PRR on a rogue if you use deception and dump agro because you shouldn't be getting hit much.

You can never avoid 100% of hits and are still subject to that one big melee hit. PRR is the ONLY way to mitigate that melee damage since you can't avoid getting hit 100% of the time. I don't think you've played a rogue in high level EE content if you think deception is going to help you dump agro.

You keep mentioning displacement like it's something rogues get by default and is unique. Displacement is something that all builds have access to through shroud clickies. The duration on scrolls is too short for me to consider. Sev indicated he is not such a big fan of clickies and while he didn't specifically mention displacement - I am skeptical we will have good options for those outside heroic Shroud. He also said he was leaning towards not balancing content around clickies.

[Qhualor]

Displacement can be completely bypassed and is only available to a rogue via scroll or clickie. Fortification can be completely bypassed and that used to be the rogue's way to avoid the big hit. Uncanny dodge has a short duration and long cooldown. PRR/MRR is a sure-thing easy-button that works every time and is active 100% of the time. Enemies have no way to bypass PRR/MRR except by bigger damage. As the devs push bigger and bigger damage to compensate for the easy-button they gave high PRR/MRR builds it makes the rogues low PRR a bigger problem. They've already done that with champions and they did that with the CR 80+ death knights in EE MOD. I am not complaining about either, but when the level cap goes up and hp goes those damage spikes will need to be bigger to somewhat challenge a high PRR build. If we gain 100 hp from 28 to 30 through better gear, stats, etc. a rogue with 30% damage reduction from PRR gains 143 effective HP against a big hit (100/.7) while a paladin also gaining 100 hp with 60% damage reduction + strength of vitality + tenacious defense gains an effective 360 hp against the big hit (100/.4*1.2*1.2). In other words the current problem we have with the PRR easy button will get worse. Damage will have to get bigger to challenge the high-PRR paladin.

Hearing people complain about the 10% death penalty is not hypothetical. It's come up many times on the forums from many different people. I will agree once you and/or your guild is known around the server you aren't going to really hear those complaints, but I do see people getting hassled from time to time - esp in heroic content.

My original post was intended to be somewhat light-hearted, but also with truth in it. Being a bit squishy is not going to keep me from playing my assassin. I enjoy that it is a more difficult build to play and to master and I do not want rogue to turn into an easy button - that is more important to me than anything else they do with rogue. I do want my rogue to be useful in raids. I hope the devs consider rogues in their design for future raids so the game doesn't become all about PRR.

True Seeing can bypass displacement which is mostly specific mobs and random Champions.

this is a good item for rogues http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Ring_of_Shadows_(Level_25)

fortification can be bypassed in specific cases just as easily as any other build. its not exclusive to rogues.

Improved Uncanny Dodge has a cooldown of 120 seconds. Spinning Staff Wall has a 90 second cooldown. both last for 20 seconds. spamming them after cooldown leaves a 50 second window to be less reckless.

Rogues make up for the low PRR, just like any other light/no armor build by using Dodge, Blur, evasion if they have it, can cast displacement and using rogue abilities like deception to avoid agro and good placement on mobs.

the death penalty that keeps coming up is on the forums and only on the forums. i don't hear people complain about it in pug groups and i don't see it as a subject of conversation in any chat channels, public, guild, alliance. its such a no big deal that if someone complains that i wonder why they even pug and why they don't understand how easy to earn xp is.

[slarden]

fortification can be bypassed in specific cases just as easily as any other build. its not exclusive to rogues.

Saying this buff is build-neutral is mythology.

If I take 1200 from a hezrou champ in Servants of the Overlord and have 60 PRR I take 750 hp damage. On my 200 PRR build I take 400 damage.

The fortification bypass buff makes PRR more important since it's the only protection you have against that big crit. It used to be my main protection was fortification (crit avoidance), but since that can be completely bypassed PRR is the only way to protect against crits. There is no buff to completely bypass PRR/MRR. At the moment it's the biggest easy-button we have in this game.

[Failedlegend]

It's very powerful... cooldown is fine as is...

The cooldown is not the issue imo it could be 5 minutes or 3 hours the ability imo is useless with such a short duration I'd rather get a smaller conditional passive bonus. I'm not the only one that hates action boosts (see old Dev thread about action boosts) which with other trees is no big deal because said action boosts are tier 1 or 2 but this is a tier FIVE ability.

I'd say something like this:

Momentum Defense (or w/e name)

Add Dex mod to PRR whilst moving (Not tumbling just moving) passive instead of an action boost...probably has a short duration (like 1 or 2 seconds) after you stop moving to reduce glitchyness

Req: Must be Wearing Light, Cloth or no armor and wielding a Q-Staff

[brzytki]

Just three questions:
Will the Dexterity bonus of Shadow Dodge continue to stack with itself?

No, Sev's already told us it was not WAI and it will be fixed.

if they are a level 1 rogue i can see 50 PRR after the boost. PRR is about reducing incoming damage. Dodge, Blur, evasion, displacement, etc is about total miss. you don't need a high PRR on a rogue if you use deception and dump agro because you shouldn't be getting hit much.

That's utter nonsense, do you even play a rogue in EE? Do you only fight 1vs1?