Rogue - Thief-Acrobat Changes

[bbqzor]

Yes, spike damage is a weakness of Rogues and other dodge based builds. This is by design.

The issue is, at the uppermost ranges of the game, the spikes scale up faster than the rogues ability to take them. This is why so many people want to see some/more PRR. Its not that dodge doesnt do a good job. Its that, being an mmo, you are subject to 1000s of attacks over your gameplay. Any dodge amount less than 100% means you WILL eventually get spiked out. A rogue is a ticking bomb in that sense, eventually you blow up. A PRR based build doesnt really face that scenario, sure you get hit often but its rarely a spike.

I get you wont significantly change this, but I hope you consider that moving forward its something you might want to look at correcting, in other fashions if not enhancements. Something like itemizing a Light Armor that has +40 sheltering is one way to help light armor guys without giving it to heavies. Obviously thats a bit insular for a full item example but hopefully you get the idea.

On the topic of Sneak Attack and the top content having undead and constructs; this doesn't prevent people from putting value into Holy Sword and other critical boosting abilities, so using this as an argument that Sneak Attack isn't valuable is less compelling to us.

A paladin (or whatever) that cant crit isnt out the bulk of their class dps progression. And casting holy sword doesnt have the same investment that sneak attack does. Sneak takes your class levels, items to boost sneak, epic feat to boost sneak, items to bypass fort to attempt to land sneak, items like deception to land sneak when alone, etc. You invest lik, *your whole guy* in it, and then it turns off against random (or in the case of current end game, not so random) mobs.

A paladin or barb or whatever that focused on crits a bit doesnt lose their whole character investment. They still get their light d6, or their frenzy d6, or their inspire courage song, or what not. They didnt spend items and feats trying to make it higher (other than the ubiquitous improved crit, but rogues will have that too). They didnt have on 5+ different items (sneak, insightful sneak, deception, imp deception, armor piercing) trying to make their light/frenzy/song better.... because there arent items for that, and there doesnt need to be. Maybe a seeker item, but again a rogue will likely have that as well. Anyhow you can see the easy discrepancy.

Look, everyone loses dmg against those mob types. Everyone. Rogues lose WAY MORE than anyone else. Trying to say "no crits" is the same as "losing 20d6" or whatever it comes out to in the end is crazy. Rogues lose crits too. But they ALSO lose sneak. How is that additional loss "not compelling". Thats a rather disheartening thing to hear from a designer, it should absolutely be compelling, its their biggest Achilles heel and that should be weighed on the design side.

They are obviously, on paper and more importantly in play, the most fickle dps bet. I hope the new assassin trick helps, but TA may need to go out-of-tree for that. It would be nice to see them get some things that can help in their own... the +base damage is the right idea but a bit small against the entirety of sneak attack. Hopefully you can do something with that glance enhancement to make it appealing, maybe change it to stacking armor piercing when holding a staff or something if you cant get the glances to work. They need some non-sneak or sneak-enable options, for times they face sneak immune guys.

Once we decide what to do with Momentum Attack we will be holding off on other changes until we see how these play on Lamannia

Momentum Defense, you mean? Or is Momentum Attack something new youre doing in place of defense that doesnt require getting hit or what not.

[oradafu]

They are obviously, on paper and more importantly in play, the most fickle dps bet. I hope the new assassin trick helps, but TA may need to go out-of-tree for that. It would be nice to see them get some things that can help in their own... the +base damage is the right idea but a bit small against the entirety of sneak attack. Hopefully you can do something with that glance enhancement to make it appealing, maybe change it to stacking armor piercing when holding a staff or something if you cant get the glances to work. They need some non-sneak or sneak-enable options, for times they face sneak immune guys.

Well, the Assassins finally got their Faster Sneak in their tree, so dipping into the Acrobat tree is no longer an issue for them, unless they want Haste Boost. Unfortunately, Acrobats still need to dip into the Assassin tree for Sneak Attack if they want more than base Rogue levels of Sneak attack. As you pointed out, it also means 10 AP now needs to be sunk into the Assassin tree so Acrobats can use Assassin's Trick to sneak attack all mobs.

I mentioned before that Acrobats should have something in the Cores that acts as an Improved Deception effect, like monk's Unbalancing Strike.

[Qhualor]

The issue is, at the uppermost ranges of the game, the spikes scale up faster than the rogues ability to take them. This is why so many people want to see some/more PRR. Its not that dodge doesnt do a good job. Its that, being an mmo, you are subject to 1000s of attacks over your gameplay. Any dodge amount less than 100% means you WILL eventually get spiked out. A rogue is a ticking bomb in that sense, eventually you blow up. A PRR based build doesnt really face that scenario, sure you get hit often but its rarely a spike.

I get you wont significantly change this, but I hope you consider that moving forward its something you might want to look at correcting, in other fashions if not enhancements. Something like itemizing a Light Armor that has +40 sheltering is one way to help light armor guys without giving it to heavies. Obviously thats a bit insular for a full item example but hopefully you get the idea.


A paladin (or whatever) that cant crit isnt out the bulk of their class dps progression. And casting holy sword doesnt have the same investment that sneak attack does. Sneak takes your class levels, items to boost sneak, epic feat to boost sneak, items to bypass fort to attempt to land sneak, items like deception to land sneak when alone, etc. You invest lik, *your whole guy* in it, and then it turns off against random (or in the case of current end game, not so random) mobs.

A paladin or barb or whatever that focused on crits a bit doesnt lose their whole character investment. They still get their light d6, or their frenzy d6, or their inspire courage song, or what not. They didnt spend items and feats trying to make it higher (other than the ubiquitous improved crit, but rogues will have that too). They didnt have on 5+ different items (sneak, insightful sneak, deception, imp deception, armor piercing) trying to make their light/frenzy/song better.... because there arent items for that, and there doesnt need to be. Maybe a seeker item, but again a rogue will likely have that as well. Anyhow you can see the easy discrepancy.

Look, everyone loses dmg against those mob types. Everyone. Rogues lose WAY MORE than anyone else. Trying to say "no crits" is the same as "losing 20d6" or whatever it comes out to in the end is crazy. Rogues lose crits too. But they ALSO lose sneak. How is that additional loss "not compelling". Thats a rather disheartening thing to hear from a designer, it should absolutely be compelling, its their biggest Achilles heel and that should be weighed on the design side.

They are obviously, on paper and more importantly in play, the most fickle dps bet. I hope the new assassin trick helps, but TA may need to go out-of-tree for that. It would be nice to see them get some things that can help in their own... the +base damage is the right idea but a bit small against the entirety of sneak attack. Hopefully you can do something with that glance enhancement to make it appealing, maybe change it to stacking armor piercing when holding a staff or something if you cant get the glances to work. They need some non-sneak or sneak-enable options, for times they face sneak immune guys.



Momentum Defense, you mean? Or is Momentum Attack something new youre doing in place of defense that doesnt require getting hit or what not.

well a rogue should not be getting agro to begin with. they are losing dps if they do. its hard to do in a fast paced game but players should be utilizing the strengths of the rogue class instead of suggesting more PRR to be able to handle getting hit. builds with light/no armor should be investing in high dodge rather than investing in reducing incoming damage. PRR builds are typically tanks and front line melees that do want agro and need to reduce incoming damage to handle staying in the fights. slapping PRR on every build just to make up for not enough damage mitigation doesn't actually address the real issue or encourages to play a class thematically.

a barbarian relies on critting for the bulk of their dps. without it, they are just plain dps. it does require investment to get those numbers like gear, enhancements, feats, etc. it doesn't just "turn off" when you have agro or don't have agro, but things like bluff and deception (solo or not solo, doesn't matter) become very important. a rogue should simply not be getting agro and directing that agro to the other melees. a rogue is supposed to be about precision attacks and knowing when to strike, which I do admit is hard to do when groups tend to rush into mobs rather than be more tactful.

I look at rogues that "lose" dps against constructs and undead as a tradeoff. its just like rangers lose dps fighting mobs that aren't part of their favored enemy. rogues do have enhancements that can bypass their fortification and land sneak attacks. equipping good gear and weapons helps a lot. rogues are only limited by the player when there is lots of options available.

[oradafu]

I look at rogues that "lose" dps against constructs and undead as a tradeoff. its just like rangers lose dps fighting mobs that aren't part of their favored enemy. rogues do have enhancements that can bypass their fortification and land sneak attacks. equipping good gear and weapons helps a lot. rogues are only limited by the player when there is lots of options available.

And where are the upper Epic weapons that are good against Undead and Construct beaters for Rogues? They can't rely on Greensteel as undead beaters forever. Cannith Crafted weapons for contructs suck so much that it's not even 1/4 of the damage one gets from Rogues' regular weapon in Epics.

[Qhualor]

And where are the upper Epic weapons that are good against Undead and Construct beaters for Rogues? They can't rely on Greensteel as undead beaters forever. Cannith Crafted weapons for contructs suck so much that it's not even 1/4 of the damage one gets from Rogues' regular weapon in Epics.

why not GS? I do on my ranger, fighters and barb.

[oradafu]

why not GS? I do on my ranger, fighters and barb.

Well, when it comes to Acrobat, you can kiss that GS stave goodbye after a few encounters in the upper epics because it wears out faster than any other weapon. Named quaterstaves until quite recently weren't designed to take punishment like other weapons.

[Basic_Uncaring]

well a rogue should not be getting agro to begin with. they are losing dps if they do. its hard to do in a fast paced game but players should be utilizing the strengths of the rogue class instead of suggesting more PRR to be able to handle getting hit. builds with light/no armor should be investing in high dodge rather than investing in reducing incoming damage. PRR builds are typically tanks and front line melees that do want agro and need to reduce incoming damage to handle staying in the fights. slapping PRR on every build just to make up for not enough damage mitigation doesn't actually address the real issue or encourages to play a class thematically.

a barbarian relies on critting for the bulk of their dps. without it, they are just plain dps. it does require investment to get those numbers like gear, enhancements, feats, etc. it doesn't just "turn off" when you have agro or don't have agro, but things like bluff and deception (solo or not solo, doesn't matter) become very important. a rogue should simply not be getting agro and directing that agro to the other melees. a rogue is supposed to be about precision attacks and knowing when to strike, which I do admit is hard to do when groups tend to rush into mobs rather than be more tactful.

I look at rogues that "lose" dps against constructs and undead as a tradeoff. its just like rangers lose dps fighting mobs that aren't part of their favored enemy. rogues do have enhancements that can bypass their fortification and land sneak attacks. equipping good gear and weapons helps a lot. rogues are only limited by the player when there is lots of options available.

Weak argument. Sooner or later everyone gets aggro. POINT
If this must be a game where a rogue cannot enter a quest unless in party to "avoid aggro" I think they may as well delete the class and give bards some more love since while they are it. People are not asking to make rogues dpssing classes that can take any opponent but simply to make them viable since they pretty much get their butt kicked by anything that has high fortification or sneak attack immunity. Think of sorcerers and wizards. The only Mobs that can completely shut em down are beholders cause even elemental immune monsters can still be killed with FoD/disintegrate/force damage/ second elemental spells. Rogues do not even have that when it comes to higher difficulties.
No way to defend themselves and not even to be helpful unless it comes to giving 30% more exp if traps are nearby

[Myrddinman]

well a rogue should not be getting agro to begin with. they are losing dps if they do. its hard to do in a fast paced game but players should be utilizing the strengths of the rogue class instead of suggesting more PRR to be able to handle getting hit. builds with light/no armor should be investing in high dodge rather than investing in reducing incoming damage. PRR builds are typically tanks and front line melees that do want agro and need to reduce incoming damage to handle staying in the fights. slapping PRR on every build just to make up for not enough damage mitigation doesn't actually address the real issue or encourages to play a class thematically.

I would tend to agree with you, as it relates to Assassin (focuses on stealth) and Mechanic (focuses on support and ranged). However, for Thief Acrobat I would advocate for PRR boosts in addition to the thematic overtures of the tree, with highest Dodge percentages. The very nature of the tree assumes that you are in the middle of things, and when you activate any of the TA abilities (except for Sky Flourish) you most likely are grabbing aggro, subjecting yourself to a beat-down in EE content.

[oradafu]

Think of sorcerers and wizards. The only Mobs that can completely shut em down are beholders cause even elemental immune monsters can still be killed with FoD/disintegrate/force damage/ second elemental spells.

And the Devs made more caster friendly beholders at higher difficulties. Seriously, the lvl 8 to 12 beholders absolutely destroy casters, unlike the Madness chain beholders.

And don't point to doomspheres as an anti-caster beholder. Doomspheres don't count. Doomspheres are the bane of all classes.

[bbqzor]

well a rogue should not be getting agro to begin with

What in my post had anything to do with getting agro. There are umpteen ways you can easily get hit without agro, from cleave, to giant stomp, to dragon wing/tail attacks, to random-agro mobs like flesh golems in orchard, the list goes on and on.

players should be utilizing the strengths of the rogue class instead of suggesting more PRR to be able to handle getting hit

But eventually, you WILL get hit. No amount of dodge short of 100% will prevent that. You need enough PRR/DR/HP/Whatever that such a certain eventuality will not take you out immediately. This only really becomes apparent against certain mobs, or in ee in general, if you dont play a rogue there youre just not going to have the same play experience to realize this. Obviously, rogues arent dying to one-shots 24/7 all over ddo. But the problem needs to be recognized, that the old "use dodge not prr, youre a rogue" line has a breaking point. Rogues need some measure of PRR too, the high end simply hits too hard to not have it. Im not saying it has to be in enhancements (ie, my light armor with sheltering example) but it needs to exist and be obtainable.

a barbarian relies on critting for the bulk of their dps.

Not even touching this one. If you think crits account for 51%+ of your dps, your play experience is so vastly different from anyone I know that there isnt common ground to stand on and say otherwise. But I would encourage you to do some rethinking of your base damage values, theres probably a better way to do things here.

a rogue should simply not be getting agro and directing that agro to the other melees. a rogue is supposed to be about precision attacks and knowing when to strike

Again, nothing in my quote has anything to do with agro. Agro isnt an issue here. As for "knowing when to strike" if you envision the class as not attacking for portions of the fight, that downtime vs the uptime of everyone else who is fighting the whole time creates a further dps gap rogues would need to close. Thats the exact reason they cant just sit outside a fight indefintely to hop in "when its safe", and the reason that getting spiked by cleaves is a certain reality rather than some rare statistical anomaly. You WILL get hit. The defense against getting hit is PRR in the modern game. Rogues need sufficient access to enough that their (generally relative) low hp totals are enough to survive such things on a recurring basis.

I look at rogues that "lose" dps against constructs and undead as a tradeoff. its just like rangers lose dps fighting mobs that aren't part of their favored enemy

Favored Enemies is a terrible mechanic that desperately needs an overhaul when the ranger pass comes. A max of +10 damage to specific mobs is completely outshown by paladins getting light d6s, or barbarians getting just frenzy dice, or by inspire courage giving that bonus to the whole group, etc. Not exactly the comparison you want to go for in saying a dps option is "fine". Sneak is an appropraite amount, the difficulty in facing sneak immune mobs because the devs are saying "well its like losing crits"... its clearly not. Its a lot worse. Doesnt mean rogues need auto sneak landing 24/7, but the guys designing this stuff ought to at least see the problem for what it is. Again, the issue here isnt a change per se, its the design team seeing and calling it like it is, as opposed to "its like losing crits". Apples to oranges.

[Myrddinman]

Well, when it comes to Acrobat, you can kiss that GS stave goodbye after a few encounters in the upper epics because it wears out faster than any other weapon. Named quaterstaves until quite recently weren't designed to take punishment like other weapons.

Indeed.

See my suggestion, here

[Qhualor]

Weak argument. Sooner or later everyone gets aggro. POINT
If this must be a game where a rogue cannot enter a quest unless in party to "avoid aggro" I think they may as well delete the class and give bards some more love since while they are it. People are not asking to make rogues dpssing classes that can take any opponent but simply to make them viable since they pretty much get their butt kicked by anything that has high fortification or sneak attack immunity. Think of sorcerers and wizards. The only Mobs that can completely shut em down are beholders cause even elemental immune monsters can still be killed with FoD/disintegrate/force damage/ second elemental spells. Rogues do not even have that when it comes to higher difficulties.
No way to defend themselves and not even to be helpful unless it comes to giving 30% more exp if traps are nearby

well yeah, but a rogue should be dumping that agro. its not a weak argument. if you aren't going to play a rogue using its best qualities than why do you play a rogue and suggest off the wall changes?

huh? rogues have an ability called sneak. utilize it. rogues don't need to be in a group to quest. use summon monster scrolls to get agro if you are seen or need to sneak by or something. deception is very powerful. when I did my rogue lives I took improved deception from Harper tree and I hardly had any agro because mobs backs were always turned. utilize the strengths of the class. it works wonders.

the only things that really is a big problem for rogues is Dodge. it needs to be on par with high PRR builds after figuring in other things like blur, displacement, invisibility and such.

sorcs and wizards are too powerful because high damaging/insta kill spells need a longer cooldown, but that's another topic.

[Myrddinman]

well yeah, but a rogue should be dumping that agro. its not a weak argument. if you aren't going to play a rogue using its best qualities than why do you play a rogue and suggest off the wall changes?

huh? rogues have an ability called sneak. utilize it. rogues don't need to be in a group to quest. use summon monster scrolls to get agro if you are seen or need to sneak by or something. deception is very powerful. when I did my rogue lives I took improved deception from Harper tree and I hardly had any agro because mobs backs were always turned. utilize the strengths of the class. it works wonders.

the only things that really is a big problem for rogues is Dodge. it needs to be on par with high PRR builds after figuring in other things like blur, displacement, invisibility and such.

sorcs and wizards are too powerful because high damaging/insta kill spells need a longer cooldown, but that's another topic.

Some of these points are valid, even if a bit off the rails for how most would prefer to play their Rogues.

Speaking for myself, I have used my hirelings (Panther and Owlbear) to grab aggro first, but we all know the buggy and unreliable nature of that option. Not to mention you'd probably grab aggro back once you've landed a couple of attacks.

Monster Summons scrolls (although creative), seems a bit unrealistic to take advantage during the normal run of play.

The Improved Deception in Harper is nice, but locks-out your Rogue T5 enhancements.

All of this being said, this is a thread for Thief Acrobat. As such I think we should be talking specifically about how this tree is designed to play, and again, that is in the middle of the fight. This makes for a different discussion than you are engaged in currently.

[FestusHood]

Well, when it comes to Acrobat, you can kiss that GS stave goodbye after a few encounters in the upper epics because it wears out faster than any other weapon. Named quaterstaves until quite recently weren't designed to take punishment like other weapons.

Tons of improved disruption and improved smiting weapons of all kinds drop at higher levels in random loot.

[oradafu]

Tons of improved disruption and improved smiting weapons of all kinds drop at higher levels in random loot.

And the DPS drop from using your regular named staves to generic Epic loot is significant. You're doing more damage with the named stuff, even after penalties.
Also, generic Epic weapons break fairly quickly.

[Caprice]

How about the following idea for putting the momentum in Momentum Defense?

Momentum Defense: Every time you hit an enemy with a special attack from the Thief-Acrobat tree, you gain +1% Dodge chance and +1% Maximum Dodge Bonus. This ability stacks up to 10 times and expires after 20 seconds if not refreshed.

You might have some of the special abilities add more than 1 stack. For instance there's plenty of Staff Lunge displeasure in this thread; make it give several stacks and people will have more incentive to figure out how to use it most effectively.

[FestusHood]

Again, nothing in my quote has anything to do with agro. Agro isnt an issue here. As for "knowing when to strike" if you envision the class as not attacking for portions of the fight, that downtime vs the uptime of everyone else who is fighting the whole time creates a further dps gap rogues would need to close.

Why do they need to close this gap? If your main concern when playing a rogue is keeping up with the Joneses, maybe you should consider just becoming one of the Joneses.

As far as agro not being an issue, are you seriously dying that often when you don't have agro?

If you read any rogue guides dating back to before the enhancement pass, before Motu, you will find that the best players would tell you that getting agro with a rogue is doing it wrong. Rogues were just as squishy back then. Managing agro is one of the skills to be learned in this game, and most of the people i see frequently dying with their squishy toons are quite deficient in this area.

[Basic_Uncaring]

well yeah, but a rogue should be dumping that agro. its not a weak argument. if you aren't going to play a rogue using its best qualities than why do you play a rogue and suggest off the wall changes?

huh? rogues have an ability called sneak. utilize it. rogues don't need to be in a group to quest. use summon monster scrolls to get agro if you are seen or need to sneak by or something. deception is very powerful. when I did my rogue lives I took improved deception from Harper tree and I hardly had any agro because mobs backs were always turned. utilize the strengths of the class. it works wonders.

the only things that really is a big problem for rogues is Dodge. it needs to be on par with high PRR builds after figuring in other things like blur, displacement, invisibility and such.

sorcs and wizards are too powerful because high damaging/insta kill spells need a longer cooldown, but that's another topic.

Do u even know what you're writing about Qhualor? Do u at least compete in EE content?

Summon a monster and see if it manages to get aggro off you or even withstand it for more than a few seconds (in case of summon monsters 9). It's easy to write in a forum to use sneak..go and do it and see how monsters will annihilate you if they find you out since, for some unknown special feature, you can run away and hide again but monsters will still know where you are. Not everyone has harper tree and willing to spend money or make in game favor that requires all harper quests on EE.

We agree on that fact rogues need more dodge. Monks and rogues are supposed to be the best evading/dodging classes in ddo (yes, much better than a bard for whoever is wondering)

[Thrudh]

The issue is, at the uppermost ranges of the game, the spikes scale up faster than the rogues ability to take them. This is why so many people want to see some/more PRR. Its not that dodge doesnt do a good job. Its that, being an mmo, you are subject to 1000s of attacks over your gameplay. Any dodge amount less than 100% means you WILL eventually get spiked out. A rogue is a ticking bomb in that sense, eventually you blow up. A PRR based build doesnt really face that scenario, sure you get hit often but its rarely a spike.

Different classes and builds play differently... Why do you want make every class play the exact same way?

A rogue can't charge in and get surrounded by 15 mobs... so what? Play that class DIFFERENTLY than you play a tank.

[HastyPudding]

How about the following idea for putting the momentum in Momentum Defense?

Momentum Defense: Every time you hit an enemy with a special attack from the Thief-Acrobat tree, you gain +1% Dodge chance and +1% Maximum Dodge Bonus. This ability stacks up to 10 times and expires after 20 seconds if not refreshed.

You might have some of the special abilities add more than 1 stack. For instance there's plenty of Staff Lunge displeasure in this thread; make it give several stacks and people will have more incentive to figure out how to use it most effectively.

When I hear 'Momentum Defense' it sounds more like 'keep moving'. Rather than getting hit or using special attacks, why not change it to this:

Momentum Defense: When you are not standing still for at least 3 seconds you gain +1 to your Dodge and Maximum Dodge for 10 seconds. This stacks up to ten times, each stack refreshing the duration. Tumbling adds 2 stacks. When you stop moving for more than 10 seconds, all stacks are removed.


This will encourage acrobats to keep mobile and utilize tumbling, and adds a dynamic playstyle to the tree. Personally, I'd love to see tumbling get some love. There really needs to be a good incentive to tumble.