Rogue - Thief-Acrobat Changes

[mna]

Rog 15, Ftr 4, Barb 1 = 35%. I don't think that's breaking the sound barrier.

Likewise, 20 Bard, 35% possible if going T5 Warchanter. 44% possible for 19 Bard / 1 Barbarian.

[btolson]

Additional idea for a t5 ability, aimed at making Dex-focused builds more attractive:

Pinpoint Critical:
If your Dexterity is higher than your Strength, then whenever you score a critical hit you will add half of your Dexterity Modifier to damage (maximum bonus of 10, applied before multipliers).


I don't think this is strong enough for Dex builds to completely supplant Str builds, but I think it will close enough of the gap for some to appear.

[davmuzl]

The champion ones can and do.

No reason there can't be some +2 PRR per dex bonus or something. Just something to help a little for Epics.

Isn't that the point of champions?

And no we don't want everyone to get 30prr basically for free, because that's what you call powercreep and it won't get us anywhere. You are not supposed to have the same playstyle as a Paladin or Barbarian and I agree that it would be nice if everyone gets a chance to solo ee content but not by making every class the same where you can just run into a bunch of mobs and just press the easy heals button.

[Failedlegend]

Can we get some abilities that get stronger or "gain stacks" when moving (NOT tumbling) imo being an acrobat is all about out manuevering your enemy (these abilities should be reliant on dex mod since Str =/= Agile)

Sidenote: Frankly I'm tired of "Stand still for X to gain power" it's entirely counter intuitive to the active combat system of DDO. Archer's Focus for example is a near useless feat imo.

[Blackheartox]

Can we get some abilities that get stronger or "gain stacks" when moving (NOT tumbling) imo being an acrobat is all about out manuevering your enemy (these abilities should be reliant on dex mod since Str =/= Agile)

Sidenote: Frankly I'm tired of "Stand still for X to gain power" it's entirely counter intuitive to the active combat system of DDO. Archer's Focus for example is a near useless feat imo.

I hope you payed attention to game mechanic thread and it was brought up here as well.
A acrobat rogue that is moving and attacking does not get the benefit of acrobatics alatricity at all.
So actually acrobats are a find position turret style of play if you want to maximize dps

[oradafu]

I hope you payed attention to game mechanic thread and it was brought up here as well.
A acrobat rogue that is moving and attacking does not get the benefit of acrobatics alatricity at all.
So actually acrobats are a find position turret style of play if you want to maximize dps

I pointed this out when the Acrobat tree was being made. The Acrobat, unlike other classes, shouldn't be getting any penalties while moving. Acrobats have Prone Defense, Move Everywhere, Fight Everywhere and Agile Fighting. Many of those things don't translate well into DDO since players can't hang off of ledges and fight or climb straight up walls (much less fight while holding onto one brick on the wall). But all of those things point toward Acrobats fighting without taking attack or armor penalties.

So, yes, Acrobats shouldn't be getting to-hit penalties when moving and their attack speed shouldn't drop while moving, especially when using staves.

[Severlin]

Thanks for the discussion. Here are some responses:

~ Yes, spike damage is a weakness of Rogues and other dodge based builds. This is by design.

~ On the topic of Sneak Attack and the top content having undead and constructs; this doesn't prevent people from putting value into Holy Sword and other critical boosting abilities, so using this as an argument that Sneak Attack isn't valuable is less compelling to us.

~ Once we decide what to do with Momentum Attack we will be holding off on other changes until we see how these play on Lamannia.

Sev~

[Ikeas]

The DC calculations for Trip, Improved Trip and Sweeping Strikes are currently borked and need to be rebalanced before this tree goes live. I should have mentioned that intention in the OP.

Sev~

Didn't see that post before... dou you mean Sweeping Strike DC will be revised? Because it needs to be revised (and raised). Maybe letting trip/combat mastery to increase the DC?

[Spoonwelder]

Thanks for the discussion. Here are some responses:

~ Yes, spike damage is a weakness of Rogues and other dodge based builds. This is by design.

~ On the topic of Sneak Attack and the top content having undead and constructs; this doesn't prevent people from putting value into Holy Sword and other critical boosting abilities, so using this as an argument that Sneak Attack isn't valuable is less compelling to us.

~ Once we decide what to do with Momentum Attack we will be holding off on other changes until we see how these play on Lamannia.

Sev~

I would ask for one more thing - full BAB on specified weapons....mainly for getting the max attack speed allowed at the top BAB at Level 25.

So for assasins, daggers and kukri - Thief Acrobat - Quaterstaves - For Mechs I am not 100% sure but I don;t think it matters for them for attack speed but the extra to hit won't be a negative for them.

For me assassin is about getting as many attacks in as possible to max out SA damage - so anything that increases my attack rate will make me happy. I could be fighting with rusty spoons and as long as I get SA damage I am going to rip a mob up fast.

[Severlin]

Didn't see that post before... dou you mean Sweeping Strike DC will be revised? Because it needs to be revised (and raised). Maybe letting trip/combat mastery to increase the DC?

Yes it will be revisited. That will also be done before Lamannia.

Sev~

[Severlin]

I would ask for one more thing - full BAB on specified weapons....mainly for getting the max attack speed allowed at the top BAB at Level 25.

So for assasins, daggers and kukri - Thief Acrobat - Quaterstaves - For Mechs I am not 100% sure but I don;t think it matters for them for attack speed but the extra to hit won't be a negative for them.

For me assassin is about getting as many attacks in as possible to max out SA damage - so anything that increases my attack rate will make me happy. I could be fighting with rusty spoons and as long as I get SA damage I am going to rip a mob up fast.

Full BAB is a class distinction and we are unlikely to change the base BAB for rogues.

Sev~

[dunklezhan]

Thanks for the discussion. Here are some responses:
~ On the topic of Sneak Attack and the top content having undead and constructs; this doesn't prevent people from putting value into Holy Sword and other critical boosting abilities, so using this as an argument that Sneak Attack isn't valuable is less compelling to us.
.

Sev~

And thank YOU for continuing to engage.

I appreciate that the argument is less compelling, but this does really hurt pure builds. And there are some, honest!

[Thar]

Full BAB is a class distinction and we are unlikely to change the base BAB for rogues.

Sev~

agreed, rogues shouldn't get full bab. that's core DnD.

[oradafu]

Full BAB is a class distinction and we are unlikely to change the base BAB for rogues.

Sev~

Yet Warpriests and Eldritch Knights get full BAB toggles.
Also monks gets full BAB with Flurry of Blows.
Warchanters to a less permanent full BAB with their Victory Song, since they must keep the song active.

Also remember that full BAB gains greater benefits with armor, besides attack speed.

[dunklezhan]

I would ask for one more thing - full BAB on specified weapons....mainly for getting the max attack speed allowed at the top BAB at Level 25.

Scroll tensers?

[Thar]

And thank YOU for continuing to engage.

I appreciate that the argument is less compelling, but this does really hurt pure builds. And there are some, honest!

Any change there would disrupt the class balance.

undead and constructs have always been the bane of rogues. Find disruptors or bane weapons or other weapons (ie celestria) to comensate slightly. This shouldn't be a change to the class abillities. What are you going to do next, give Rangers favored enemy's vs every mob in game? Sorcs/Wiz full fire damage vs fire immune creatures?, etc etc. every class has it's bane. Find ways to lessen the impact or avoid those encounters.

[Spoonwelder]

Full BAB is a class distinction and we are unlikely to change the base BAB for rogues.

Sev~

Except for: (cite ddowiki)

• Bladesworn Transformation
• Divine Power spell
• Divine Power toggle: Warpriest enhancements T5 ability
• Madstone Rage
• Past Life: Student of the Sword clicky
• Tenser's Transformation spell
• Tenser's Transformation toggle: Eldritch Knight enhancements T5 ability
• Victory Song toggle: Warchanter enhancements level 18 core ability
• Just Cause: Divine Crusader first innate ability

Three are class enhancements to classes that don't have full BAB that replicate spells available to the class. That's usually the biggest benefit of them (espcially Divine power that you would have +6 Str on most characters anyway).

Rogues could scroll those spells but the times on the scrolls are annoyingly low. Alternatively give the mech tree scroll/wand a duration boost as well as damage (ie. 75% longer spells on Tensers gives me 2.5min which would be pretty sweet but not game breaking). That said I wouldn't want it in Mech as it would be points spent just to get this but.....I would consider giving up 2SA dice I get from racial tree to get long tensers.

[Spoonwelder]

Scroll tensers?

PITA to keep up permanently....add moderate arcane spell failure and cooldowns on scrolls and needing to scroll heal sometimes......

Note I am note looking for it on all weapons just the relatively weak weapons of the PrE's daggers, kukri and staves. So not even shortswords or rapiers just the PrE weapons. It could be added to the level 18 core so that it isn't low hanging fruit that anyone would splash for.

[oradafu]

Any change there would disrupt the class balance.

undead and constructs have always been the bane of rogues. Find disruptors or bane weapons or other weapons (ie celestria) to comensate slightly. This shouldn't be a change to the class abillities. What are you going to do next, give Rangers favored enemy's vs every mob in game? Sorcs/Wiz full fire damage vs fire immune creatures?, etc etc. every class has it's bane. Find ways to lessen the impact or avoid those encounters.

Well, the Devs did nerf Golems to hell way back so Wizards and Sorcs could deal with them. That's one class bane that has lessen the impact of their encounter.

As for Rangers, until the trees were added, Undead was their bane because they couldn't get blunt damage with ranged weapons. The same with other ranged. Sure, the Devs finally added some blunt ranged weapons, but that was right before the Trees were added.

That's actually something the Devs need to do though. They need to add some upper epic undead and construct beaters for Rogues: Quaterstaves, Heavy Repeater and Dagger or Kukri. Necro4 would have been the place for them to drop, but of course that's too logical.

[Myrddinman]

I would ask for one more thing - full BAB on specified weapons....mainly for getting the max attack speed allowed at the top BAB at Level 25.

So for assasins, daggers and kukri - Thief Acrobat - Quaterstaves - For Mechs I am not 100% sure but I don;t think it matters for them for attack speed but the extra to hit won't be a negative for them.

For me assassin is about getting as many attacks in as possible to max out SA damage - so anything that increases my attack rate will make me happy. I could be fighting with rusty spoons and as long as I get SA damage I am going to rip a mob up fast.

Not a bad idea. It would be a nice boost to weapons that are tree dependent to gain a little more oomph (1d6 base for Quarterstaff and 1d4 Dagger). Perhaps limit Mechanic to Great Crossbows for full BAB (leaving Repeaters the providence of Artificers).

Full BAB is a class distinction and we are unlikely to change the base BAB for rogues.

Sev~

Curses! Well, I suppose Rogues should be able to scroll Tenser's without much investment. Speaking of which (and in conjunction with the other suggestions of Quickened scroll use for Rogues), perhaps Scroll Mastery could include Extend. Great for Displacement and Tenser's.