Rogue - Thief-Acrobat Changes

[fangblackhawk]

Rogues can also use those Divine Crusader healing options and twist Cocoon if they wish? I am not seeing how that has anything to do with the effectiveness of trying to heal using Paladin spells in Epic Elite. I apologize am I missing something?

Sev~

could rouges (with out encroaching on arti) get faster cooldowns on scroll use maybe i know the mechanic tree gets wand and scroll mastery that stacks with heal amp iirc from wiz lives, but what about scaling that umd healing that is slow and clunky, involves changing weapons that always seems to cause a slight lag type stutter for me. then healing while waiting for cool downs on 2 or three items wand/scroll/pot/other clicky then switching back to weapons and back and forth like this ,,, you can in epics augment it maybe even take the magical training feat (snicker) and now have 5 or 6 or 12 hot bar spots to try and keep your hp up with ed feats .... never mind the dex int con you also need decent char ... hamp figures in aswell and it can work but is a very annoying prossess to be totally honest.... rouge its self is a wide term and includes many many different people through out history and litriature from the scarlet pimpernel to willam wallace to barak obama depending on who you ask and ther for leaves it open to interpitation , it should splash well into any other class and has been the staring point of many great adventured including Elminster, and Rastlin but should hold its own in power like Cat Woman who is prolly the most iconic theif acrobat in modern culture seems to get heal by cats liking her or drinking milk or some such tumble should give a theif acro bat at its highest levels some thing no one else could dream of to both survive and kill....

[Basic_Uncaring]

14 pally is not a little splash.

2 completely different lifes...tought it was clear

[oradafu]

Im asking for a buff to trap damage on ee.
Since as it is now, they do nothing beside give us 30% more xp if we care enough to disarm them.
I dont see a single thing bad in wanting a buff to a mechanic in game that deserves it.
Why is noone ever wanting a buff for enemies or obstacles to complete quests ..sigh

When it comes to traps, the Devs just have to be smarter or trickier, which they haven't been for years. Except when it comes to poison.

Players have been calling for random traps in quests for years.
Slashing and spike traps should be giving both damage and Hamstring.
Mordenkainen's Disjunction traps would be on trap that players would be more careful around, instead of just running through them.

And those are just three ideas off the top of my head. I'd give more, but I'm not being paid by Turbine and they've ignored my free advice with other stuff, such as might 20+ different ideas to hide secret doors instead of nerfing True Seeing.

I know I'm shooting myself in the foot here... but the reason most people don't value evasion and sneak is the content. 3 of the top 5 raid bosses are undead. The most difficult mobs in EE are constructs or undead at endgame.

Miior is the only reason to have evasion these days sheerly because of her unique 1 million checks per second evadable buff.

It seems as if Rogues are being balanced because they have advantages that they don't really have at end game. I know we're talking about a utility class here (This is D&D not WOW) but if the utility has worn off then we're looking for end game comparable benefits... the solution would be to make more "Rogue Required" stuff that would also not shun the artificer for not having evasion (but arti should be rolling shadowdancer/insightful reflex anyway for those situations). Mechanic is a good solution to constructs, but paladins have similar anti-undead properties innate in the doubling (or 1.5x'ing?) of light damage already available.

Everything sounds positive so far so that's definitely good, I just think they need a little more oomph, if not in pure dps, more utility/battlefield control.

This was the same problem, ironically, that Paladins had until they were updated. The Devs refused to merge Undead slayer and Evil Outsiders when the trees first appeared (after claiming that's what they were doing), even though Evil Outsiders no longer exist in the Epic quests, especially high level Epics. The Devs kept adding Epic animals (still stupid), elementals, plants, will-o'-wisps and constructs which Paladins couldn't do damage to since those mobs are Neutral.

So Epic quests, especially the post-MOTU quests, were designed without taking every class in consideration. Quest design and more diverse quests at end game are definitely another set of problems with the current game.

[slarden]

Rogues can also use those Divine Crusader healing options and twist Cocoon if they wish? I am not seeing how that has anything to do with the effectiveness of trying to heal using Paladin spells in Epic Elite. I apologize am I missing something?

Sev~

Even if you have those you still have less healing options, lower saves, less prr and less hp compared to someone with 3 paladin levels. You aren't giving up much dps to get the extra survivability. I think that was his point.

I really love playing my pure 20 rogue assassin because it's a very difficult build to play effectively in the hardest content. If I have a champ that can bypass my fortification there is no way I can heal through those crits with cocoon and getting one-shot is still very possible at lower epic levels - in fact I was one-hit by a hezrou champ in Servants of the Overlord just 2 days ago @ level 22. I can use my daunting roar twist to buy me some time or bluff/diplomacy to get them off me and on to another party member with the PRR that can handle it. Unlike a swashbuckler I can't always use my assassinate when I am in active combat to get rid of a dangerous enemy. I can't just stand my ground and fight the champion with roguish PRR and heal through it. Using scrolls is something I don't do in combat at epic levels because it is ineffective.

Scroll healing used to be a strength for rogues, but not any more. Any class can get a high enough UMD for scroll healing now and almost nobody can get a good enough concentration to scroll heal through aggro. It's slow and easily disrupted. Rogues should be able to cast scrolls faster and should have an enhancement option to cast without interruption (like quicken). Rogues need some unique skills that aren't easy buttons. Easy-button builds like Swashbuckler, Paladin and Shiradi caster are good for the game, but having some advanced builds like Assassin that are much harder to play effectively is also good for the game. Even with all the compelling reasons not to play an assassin I still love playing my assassin, but I want to play him like an assassin and not like a paladin.

I am not going to play my rogue in divine crusader. If I needed to use divine crusader to survive I would just reroll to something else. I do use unquickened cocoon via twist with a positive spellpower augment, 30 spellpower bonus from power of life and death active divine past life feat and sometimes I even twist in 30 spellpower from exalted angel. That is my primary source of self-healing during combat. It works ok as long as I manage aggro, but when grouping it's impossible to manage aggro - stuff happens. Still, if rogues had an effective scroll healing option that would be great. It would also be useful in raids to raise, restore and help out when the divines are overwhelmed.

[Basic_Uncaring]

Even if you have those you still have less healing options, lower saves, less prr and less hp compared to someone with 3 paladin levels. You aren't giving up much dps to get the extra survivability. I think that was his point.

I really love playing my pure 20 rogue assassin because it's a very difficult build to play effectively in the hardest content. If I have a champ that can bypass my fortification there is no way I can heal through those crits with cocoon and getting one-shot is still very possible at lower epic levels - in fact I was one-hit by a hezrou champ in Servants of the Overlord just 2 days ago @ level 22. I can use my daunting roar twist to buy me some time or bluff/diplomacy to get them off me and on to another party member with the PRR that can handle it. Unlike a swashbuckler I can't always use my assassinate when I am in active combat to get rid of a dangerous enemy. I can't just stand my ground and fight the champion with roguish PRR and heal through it. Using scrolls is something I don't do in combat at epic levels because it is ineffective.

Scroll healing used to be a strength for rogues, but not any more. Any class can get a high enough UMD for scroll healing now and almost nobody can get a good enough concentration to scroll heal through aggro. It's slow and easily disrupted. Rogues should be able to cast scrolls faster and should have an enhancement option to cast without interruption (like quicken). Rogues need some unique skills that aren't easy buttons. Easy-button builds like Swashbuckler, Paladin and Shiradi caster are good for the game, but having some advanced builds like Assassin that are much harder to play effectively is also good for the game. Even with all the compelling reasons not to play an assassin I still love playing my assassin, but I want to play him like an assassin and not like a paladin.

I am not going to play my rogue in divine crusader. If I needed to use divine crusader to survive I would just reroll to something else. I do use unquickened cocoon via twist with a positive spellpower augment, 30 spellpower bonus from power of life and death active divine past life feat and sometimes I even twist in 30 spellpower from exalted angel. That is my primary source of self-healing during combat. It works ok as long as I manage aggro, but when grouping it's impossible to manage aggro - stuff happens. Still, if rogues had an effective scroll healing option that would be great. It would also be useful in raids to raise, restore and help out when the divines are overwhelmed.

Exactly my point. +100 kudos

I have played both the new pally and thief acrobat (just life before pally actually). I could solo many of the early EE content (phiarlan, ES 1chain and such) at level on my rogue but surviving was actually an issue many times and I had to prepare a really solid build with blue bar for cocoon and MANY clickies and boosters to get the job done. I know I could have done in party but the point is that with the pally almost every quest is trivial and doesn't require strategic thinking. Just aggro everything and cleave the hell out of anything that moves and IF they manage to hurt you healing is a piece of cake.

A rogue that needs to behave like a warrior and heal like a cleric is not a rogue. Stealth is not an option since it has many flaws (but feel free to read bugs).

[catscan420]

Even an ee giant won't hit for 500 per swing and you won't get hit by both swings every time. You should also make sure you got some defense when playing a rogue and as a rogue you are also trying to not be attacked anyway. Now if you are saying that it is unfair when a rogue has to fear being killed all the time when other classes can just faceroll I agree with you. But that's what I was trying to say- it should be less about stacking prr to a point where you ignore 2/3 of the incoming dmg and more about stacking armor especially for tanks.

The champion ones can and do.

No reason there can't be some +2 PRR per dex bonus or something. Just something to help a little for Epics.

[catscan420]

Scroll healing used to be a strength for rogues, but not any more. Any class can get a high enough UMD for scroll healing now and almost nobody can get a good enough concentration to scroll heal through aggro. It's slow and easily disrupted. Rogues should be able to cast scrolls faster and should have an enhancement option to cast without interruption (like quicken). Rogues need some unique skills that aren't easy buttons. Easy-button builds like Swashbuckler, Paladin and Shiradi caster are good for the game, but having some advanced builds like Assassin that are much harder to play effectively is also good for the game. Even with all the compelling reasons not to play an assassin I still love playing my assassin, but I want to play him like an assassin and not like a paladin.

+1

[oradafu]

Scroll healing used to be a strength for rogues, but not any more. Any class can get a high enough UMD for scroll healing now and almost nobody can get a good enough concentration to scroll heal through aggro. It's slow and easily disrupted. Rogues should be able to cast scrolls faster and should have an enhancement option to cast without interruption (like quicken). Rogues need some unique skills that aren't easy buttons. Easy-button builds like Swashbuckler, Paladin and Shiradi caster are good for the game, but having some advanced builds like Assassin that are much harder to play effectively is also good for the game. Even with all the compelling reasons not to play an assassin I still love playing my assassin, but I want to play him like an assassin and not like a paladin.

There's alot of truth in this.

An option that I'd rather see than another Enhancement would be a new feat in the Rogue Special Feats. Since these feats are limited to levels 10, 13, 16 and 19, a Quicken Scroll feat wouldn't be a low-hanging fruit. I'd also suggest that the Tactical Trapsmith could be another Special Feat for Rogues.

Opportunist and Improved Evasion are really the only two feats currently worth taking now.

Defensive Roll has gotten a bit more useful with the Improved Defensive Roll fully invested, but only when it's fully invested.

Skill Mastery is a waste since Generic Epic Levels gives exactly the same thing, multiple times more so even non-UMD skilled characters have access to same healing options that Rogues used to have (but they now have other options when it comes to healing.

Crippling Strike used to be great, but Epic mobs killed its usefulness since stats heal up and it barely affects bosses.

Slippery Mind has always been a throw away feat. But as I pointed out, since MOTU it's not the only throw away "free" Rogue feat.

[Blackheartox]

I know I'm shooting myself in the foot here... but the reason most people don't value evasion and sneak is the content. 3 of the top 5 raid bosses are undead. The most difficult mobs in EE are constructs or undead at endgame.

Miior is the only reason to have evasion these days sheerly because of her unique 1 million checks per second evadable buff.

It seems as if Rogues are being balanced because they have advantages that they don't really have at end game. I know we're talking about a utility class here (This is D&D not WOW) but if the utility has worn off then we're looking for end game comparable benefits... the solution would be to make more "Rogue Required" stuff that would also not shun the artificer for not having evasion (but arti should be rolling shadowdancer/insightful reflex anyway for those situations). Mechanic is a good solution to constructs, but paladins have similar anti-undead properties innate in the doubling (or 1.5x'ing?) of light damage already available.

Everything sounds positive so far so that's definitely good, I just think they need a little more oomph, if not in pure dps, more utility/battlefield control.

Yep yep exactly my reasoning behind trap buff request.
And to check shadowdancer tree.
It is the only tree that allows you to sneak all nonsneakable enemies.
But the tree alone is horrible and has so many broken abilities that it is purely unfun imo

[Blackheartox]

There's alot of truth in this.

An option that I'd rather see than another Enhancement would be a new feat in the Rogue Special Feats. Since these feats are limited to levels 10, 13, 16 and 19, a Quicken Scroll feat wouldn't be a low-hanging fruit. I'd also suggest that the Tactical Trapsmith could be another Special Feat for Rogues.

Opportunist and Improved Evasion are really the only two feats currently worth taking now.

Defensive Roll has gotten a bit more useful with the Improved Defensive Roll fully invested, but only when it's fully invested.

Skill Mastery is a waste since Generic Epic Levels gives exactly the same thing, multiple times more so even non-UMD skilled characters have access to same healing options that Rogues used to have (but they now have other options when it comes to healing.

Crippling Strike used to be great, but Epic mobs killed its usefulness since stats heal up and it barely affects bosses.

Slippery Mind has always been a throw away feat. But as I pointed out, since MOTU it's not the only throw away "free" Rogue feat.

Hey, dont let me get started on useless monk fighter and caster feats

[oradafu]

Yep yep exactly my reasoning behind trap buff request.
And to check shadowdancer tree.
It is the only tree that allows you to sneak all nonsneakable enemies.
But the tree alone is horrible and has so many broken abilities that it is purely unfun imo

As I pointed out in the Assassin thread, when the EDs were first made, the Devs said outright that the Shadowdancer ED was almost strictly for Assassins and Palemasters. I mentioned that Acrobats and Mechanics gained little from the Shadowdancer ED and I was told by the Devs that the LD ED was for Acrobats while Mechanics had Shiradi and they weren't designing Shadowdancer to help all Rogues.

Shadowdancer, much like Gandmaster of Flowers, is a very unfun ED for characters that weren't designed for those EDs. Yet the Devs expect us to grind through them and suffer.

[Blackheartox]

As I pointed out in the Assassin thread, when the EDs were first made, the Devs said outright that the Shadowdancer ED was almost strictly for Assassins and Palemasters. I mentioned that Acrobats and Mechanics gained little from the Shadowdancer ED and I was told by the Devs that the LD ED was for Acrobats while Mechanics had Shiradi and they weren't designing Shadowdancer to help all Rogues.

Shadowdancer, much like Gandmaster of Flowers, is a very unfun ED for characters that weren't designed for those EDs. Yet the Devs expect us to grind through them and suffer.

Ive played a full pure ass rogue life in shadowdancer, then later on in mid of last year i played a shuriken shadowdancer life.
Now to be honest, the shuriken build was way way more powerful and actually used the destiny to its best.
As rogue, i liked the super sneak mov speed and ddor and shadow manipulation.

And that is about it...

[Oxarhamar]

The champion ones can and do.

No reason there can't be some +2 PRR per dex bonus or something. Just something to help a little for Epics.

& how much PRR is that going to convert to ? 5% damage mitigation

[catscan420]

& how much PRR is that going to convert to ? 5% damage mitigation

I would take another 30 PRR on my rogue... it would make 100 a reality which is 50% reduction.

[BigErkyKid]

Rogues can also use those Divine Crusader healing options and twist Cocoon if they wish? I am not seeing how that has anything to do with the effectiveness of trying to heal using Paladin spells in Epic Elite. I apologize am I missing something?

Sev~

You are not grasping well the reality of the healing differences between paladins and rogues

Yes, you are. Cocoon is a HoT that requires not getting hit to be effective. This means that if you are surrounded by enemies it will heal you very little. It also has a longish cool down. The paladin has access to burst healing (cure serious, cure moderate). With hamp those options are healing for a lot (I won't give my numbers, just have a look around at what people are achieving in end game). Burst healing becomes even more relevant in a class /archetype subject to spike damage (not heavy PRR class). You are trying to encourage rogues NOT to use heavy armor and I am assuming here that you make it attractive enough for people to buy.

Scrolls are incredibly weak in epic elites due to the reasons people have pointed out. Requires a weapon swap, big possibility of failure through concentration roll fails, whatever you heal will be soon taken from you if you are not running to a dark corner to do it. Your observations about healing paladins in EE are completely out of line with the reality of the game as it stands (I think I speak for everyone on this one).

The acrobat tree has very low hanging high return DPS enhancements

Now some people mention that the acrobat tree has nice DPS options and that the fact that holy sword is free is not much of an advantage. I disagree. What is nice about acrobat is for the most part the low hanging (+15% speed attack, DBs bonus). The rest is in my opinion easily outclassed by what you can get in KOTC. No mercy on a build that is not heavy on stuns is not excellent, sweeping strikes not a great option when you are most probably going STR based anyway, shadow dodge most used by NOT staff builds (throwers) is telling you something, and staff lounge is meh given the long cool down and what it actually does.

As things stand, I don't see power gamers going for rogue staff build. The proposed changes are not major, so I doubt that they will then. Power gamers in DDO are quick to detect anomalies in the "force" so I think this is telling you something important.

Quarterstaff fighting is an awkward combat style

In addition, I would like to point out that staff builds are not FOTM now for some important reasons. Sireth has been an end game weapon for the longest time since even after staff specialization the weak weapon profile oh the regular weapon puts it way behind other options. This is particularly true since paladins' and barbarians' upgrades.

Staff fighting is and odd one:

- Weak weapon profile
- Fast attack speed (and DBs, which is the same)

However, most THF builds focus on AOE damage. In this area staff is not great. So you have better single enemy damage (altough part of the advantage is eaten by the weak weapon profile in TF) but worse AOE. People who focus on attack speed prefer SWF and the big cleavers won't be using a staff. So where does it fit?

[Vanhooger]

I've been playing my main as a rogue last 2 month, and what I noticed as a light armor user was that you can't mitigate much damage against champion with true see ( look like they are everywere now ) & spike damage. I got instakilled few times by giant & assassin, I mean it's fine to die, but not If they don't give me a chance to react.

My rogue wasn't really squishy, got 1k+ hp, 90+ reflex save, evasion all the time, low 60 in fort & will, 150% fort ( I know probably a bit too low for some EE content), 120 prr 50 mrr, but still got pawned sometime by spike damage.

A quest that I did hate was EE mod, getting oneshotted by abbot burst (no save) + 500-600 damage per disintegrate, so I ended up using heavy shadow armor losing all my evasion benefit, but it worked way better even if I had less dps due to swash stance turned off. Better less dps then 0 I guess.

So in short I think:

- Rogue dps is good if combined with swf and swash, but dunno on a twf or staff
- Damage mitigation is not good & unpredictable, adding more dodge will not solve spike damage issue.
- Non reflex save s..k a bit

I throw an Idea:

Add 10prr & 5 mrr every 10 point on dodge?

[BigErkyKid]

I've been playing my main as a rogue last 2 month, and what I noticed as a light armor user was that you can't mitigate much damage against champion with true see ( look like they are everywere now ) & spike damage. I got instakilled few times by giant & assassin, I mean it's fine to die, but not If they don't give me a chance to react.

My rogue wasn't really squishy, got 1k+ hp, 90+ reflex save, evasion all the time, low 60 in fort & will, 150% fort ( I know probably a bit too low for some EE content), 120 prr 50 mrr, but still got pawned sometime by spike damage.

A quest that I did hate was EE mod, getting oneshotted by abbot burst (no save) + 500-600 damage per disintegrate, so I ended up using heavy shadow armor losing all my evasion benefit, but it worked way better even if I had less dps due to swash stance turned off. Better less dps then 0 I guess.

So in short I think:

- Rogue dps is good if combined with swf and swash, but dunno on a twf or staff
- Damage mitigation is not good & unpredictable, adding more dodge will not solve spike damage issue.
- Non reflex save s..k a bit

I throw an Idea:

Add 10prr & 5 mrr every 10 point on dodge?

You are experience is similar to mine on a pure bard (no stalwart). Forzah wrote a simulation where it shows how, particularly against more than one enemy, dodgy defenses can lead to early deaths by bad luck enough so that harmor becomes in expectation a better option. You can check my signature "what was wrong with armor up" for that.

[Vyrzain]

.........................With the increase attack speed of stick builds, and most staves being made of wood, the item wear piles-up really quick!

.......................This being said, on long quests my main staves often break and I have to switch to another, less desirable stick.

Perhaps a passive Item Defense 25% @ level 3/50% @ level 12/75% @ level 20?

Cheers!

Very true : )

[Vyrzain]

................

Traps should --kill-- players

Again True… and as other have stated the idea of Random Traps sounds like fun and should make for Spot to be a more valued Skill.

If others do not have a Rogue in the Party they could still use their PRR and MRR for these Traps.

Maybe something for future updates.

Note.. I also like the addition of Champions.... thanks… it adds to the challenge : )

[btolson]

Momentum Defense: Each time you are struck with an attack you gain +1 to your Dodge and Maximum Dodge for 12 seconds. This stacks up to ten times. (Each hit refreshes all stacks, stacks fall off all at once.)
Sev~

Overall I think this is a fairly useless ability. Only granting the buff after getting hit is -- for a low-hp, low-prr character -- a very sub-optimal trade. It also does nothing to help cope with the main threat to light armor characters - spiky damage.

I think this should be redone as a Defensive Stance (exclusive with all other defensive stances, e.g., Stalwart). Rather than offering +dodge which only slightly reduces the rate of incoming damage rather than the magnitude of its spikes, I would change the bonus to a % reduction.

Momentum Defense
You nimbly roll with the blows to lessen their impact upon you. While this stance is active, you reduce incoming melee damage by a percentage equal to half of your dexterity modifier (max reduction of 15%).


Part of the charm of this version of the ability is that it is exclusive with Stalwart Stance (and also quite competitive with it), meaning rogues will no longer feel forced to MC in order to have worthwhile defenses.

Revisiting this after some thought.

Still think it should be a stance. Don't think it should be exclusive with other defensive stances anymore, as that will do nothing to improve the state of most current builds.

Reworking it this way:

Momentum Defense
You nimbly roll with the blows to lessen their impact upon you. While this stance is active and you wearing light or no armor, you reduce incoming melee damage by a percentage equal to half of your dexterity modifier (max reduction of 5%).

Then, additionally, it will receive some perks in the higher cores (to reduce the stackability with other stances):
core 12: Your Momentum Defense now has a cap of 8%
core 18: Your Momentum Defense now has a cap of 12%
core 20: Your Momentum Defense now has a cap of 15%